Afghanistan part of South Asia?

[marwat]

there's less genetic distance b/w say a sindhi/burusho with pashtun than a pashtun with a kurd or persian.

would you mind giving a little insight into this picture? which haplogroup or chromosome are this picture taking into account? it's laughable saying genetically there is a little distance between pashtun ,sindhi and kashmiri.
Pashtun are widely considered eastern iranian people and genetically they are much closer to Tajik. i am not into this dna thing but i hope your mantra will be answered by someone [MENTION=5723]Kushan Prince[/MENTION] [MENTION=3658]pashtanajan[/MENTION]

[marwat]

[MENTION=18008]tripledouble[/MENTION] it is true that paskitani pashtun cluster with sindhi however none of Afghan Pashtun do, Afghan Pashtun cluster more with Tajik and Baloch, more west asian shifted and more homogeneous. things which you are not considering is most of pakistani pashtun are not indigenous but came here in 16th and 17th century. there was a research about ethnic diversity of Pakistan which now i forgot about, there charts clearly showed that genes flowed from KP to other parts of pakistan and not the other way around. perhaps we also don't know how the research is carried out, i think they collected all of the samples from Peshawar region which is mixture of civilization neglecting northern parts and FATA. otherwise results would be different.

[marwat]

also indus valley civilization does not define the geography of central asia or south asia, it is a bronze age period, other civilization at that time were Mesopotamian and ancient egypt only. some small colonies of indus sites are found in central asian countries too.

[Kushan Prince]

Afghanistan is part of Central Asia, not south.

[Kushan Prince]

Geographically - no.

Culturally - no.

Racially - heck, no.

Religiously - Well they are Sunni Hanafi Maturidi like other south Asians with a Persian influence in their Islam e.g. Bengalis and Pakistanis also say "namaz" for "salah"/prayer.

In the past they were Buddhist and also there was Hindu influence too.

The Indian-origin Deobandis have major influence on Afghanistan too e.g. via the Taliban.



Historically - no Afghanistan is not really part of south Asia or even if it was (a very dubious claim) at the most it is on the periphery.


Politically - Technically, yes because it's part of SAARC and sometimes news organizations have classified some Afghan news as falling in to the south Asia related section.


However if someone were to ask me a simple, yes and no answer. I would clearly say "NO."

If someone were to ask me for an answer in a sentence, I would say "No they're not but they have had major influences from and on south Asia in terms of religion and culture."


Most importantly it is for Afghans themselves to define what they are and Afghans I know definitely do not like to be associated as South Asians and find that somewhat offensive.

[MENTION=5723]Kushan Prince[/MENTION]

Very well said.

Pashtuns are not south asian and anybody will tell you this. Afghanistan for the most part has always been classified as Central Asian and sometimes middle eastern by the west, but this this depends on who you ask.

Genetically and culturally, Pashtuns are a central asia people for sure, even Afghanistan is noted to be in the "Heart of Asia" by many writers and historians. If that's not a clearer defenition of Central Asia, then i don't what is.

[MENTION=18008]tripledouble[/MENTION] Pashto is an eastern iranic language totally unrelated to the indo-aryan or dravidian languages. Even Balochi is far from the spectrum. I have doubts about Pekhwari Pashto that might be indic influenced but as a whole, Pashto has no connection to south asia not to mention Pashtuns look totally different from Indians and Pakis.

[tripledouble]

Pashto is an eastern iranic language totally unrelated to the indo-aryan or dravidian languages.

Did i dispute this?NO, i agree, it's east iranic language, but it's ONLY Iranic language with retroflexive consonants

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retroflex_consonant#Occurrence

Balochi is different but we're talking about Afg, and Brahui is totally d/f, the most different language in Pakistan is possibly Burushaski which is a language isolate but this is different topic.

not to mention Pashtuns look totally different from Indians and Pakis

i know, but some pakis are pashtuns, u smart enough to know paki is not ethnicity, it's very diverse, i'm from haripur hazara and we have people from many d/f backgrounds.

I know pashtuns on average look different, but it's not like night and day, it's a cline, further west and north you go, obviously the differences become more noticeble.

[tripledouble]

[MENTION=18008]tripledouble[/MENTION] it is true that paskitani pashtun cluster with sindhi however none of Afghan Pashtun do, Afghan Pashtun cluster more with Tajik and Baloch, more west asian shifted and more homogeneous. things which you are not considering is most of pakistani pashtun are not indigenous but came here in 16th and 17th century. there was a research about ethnic diversity of Pakistan which now i forgot about, there charts clearly showed that genes flowed from KP to other parts of pakistan and not the other way around. perhaps we also don't know how the research is carried out, i think they collected all of the samples from Peshawar region which is mixture of civilization neglecting northern parts and FATA. otherwise results would be different.

Samples r from khurram agency in tribal areas near afghan border, it is isolated place.

Even [MENTION=1669]Adam[/MENTION] on his dna test have around 25% south indian , he's Swati Yusufzai.

[Kushan Prince]

Did i dispute this?NO, i agree, it's east iranic language, but it's ONLY Iranic language with retroflexive consonants

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retroflex_consonant#Occurrence

Balochi is different but we're talking about Afg, and Brahui is totally d/f, the most different language in Pakistan is possibly Burushaski which is a language isolate but this is different topic.


i know, but pakis are pashtuns, u smart enough to know paki is not ethnicity, it's very diverse, i'm from haripur hazara and we have people from many d/f backgrounds.

I know pashtuns on average look different, but it's not like night and day, it's a cline, further west and north you go, obviously the differences become more noticeble.

Did i dispute this?NO, i agree, it's east iranic language, but it's ONLY Iranic language with retroflexive consonants

I have to disagree here. Pashto doesn't have any retroflex consonants unlike the Dardic languages of Nuristan and Northern Pakistan. Also that paragraph has no citations or sources to prove its claim so i don't believe its true.

i know, but pakis are pashtuns, u smart enough to know paki is not ethnicity, it's very diverse, i'm from haripur hazara and we have people from many d/f backgrounds.

Only some Pakis are Pashtun, buy yes other then that i agree. I was using Pashtun as retrospective with Afghan.

[tripledouble]

I have to disagree here. Pashto doesn't have any retroflex consonants unlike the Dardic languages of Nuristan and Northern Pakistan. Also that paragraph has no citations or sources to prove its claim so i don't believe its true.



Only some Pakis are Pashtun, buy yes other then that i agree. I was using Pashtun as retrospective with Afghan.

it's widely agreed by linguists bro, it's not bad, it's what gives pashto it's sexy rough sound, that's why it doen't sound gay like Farsi or softer sounding iranic langauges.

here's a d/f link http://www.afghan-network.net/Ethnic...u-history.html

[marwat]

Samples r from khurram agency in tribal areas near afghan border, it is isolated place.

Even [MENTION=1669]Adam[/MENTION] on his dna test have around 25% south indian , he's Swati Yusufzai.

haha, it's not about human dna , i am sure pure African share more than 25 percent dna with indigenous european. human share 50 percent dna with bananas too, chimpanzee are 98 percent similar too human too and perhaps cats and cows are 80 percent.
it's some specific haplogroups which distinct human not the whole dna.

[Smarty]

@tripledouble Balochs have nothing to do with Mehrgarh civilization, they came to present day Baluchistan from Iran and conquered areas around Suleiman mountains and south Punjab just few centuries ago.


Balochs came into their present locations in Mekran and on the Indian border from the parts of the Iranian plateau further to the west and north , bringing with them a language of the old Persian stock , with many features the Zend or old Bactrian rather than the western Persian.

Mr.Longworth Dames assigns the first mention of the Baloch in history to the Arabic chronicles of 10th century AD but Firdausi refers to a still earlier period, and in his Shahnama , the Baloch are described as forming part of the armies of Rai Kaus and Kai Khusrao. The poem says that the army of Ashkash was from the wanderers of Koch and Baloch , intent on war, with exalted cockscomb crests, whose back none in the world ever saw. Under Naushirwan , the Chosroes who fight against Justinian, the Baloch are again mentioned as mountaineers who raided his kingdom and had to be exterminated , though later on we find them serving in Naushirwan's own army. In this passages their association with the men of Gil and Dailam (The people of Gilan and Azerbaijan) would appear to locate the Baloch in a province north of Karman towards the Caspian sea.
https://books.google.com.pk/books?id...%20but&f=false

[Adam]

Samples r from khurram agency in tribal areas near afghan border, it is isolated place.

Even [MENTION=1669]Adam[/MENTION] on his dna test have around 25% south indian , he's Swati Yusufzai.

Or so I thought I was :'(

[pashtanajan]

Did i dispute this?NO, i agree, it's east iranic language, but it's ONLY Iranic language with retroflexive consonants

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retroflex_consonant#Occurrence

Balochi is different but we're talking about Afg, and Brahui is totally d/f, the most different language in Pakistan is possibly Burushaski which is a language isolate but this is different topic.


i know, but some pakis are pashtuns, u smart enough to know paki is not ethnicity, it's very diverse, i'm from haripur hazara and we have people from many d/f backgrounds.

I know pashtuns on average look different, but it's not like night and day, it's a cline, further west and north you go, obviously the differences become more noticeble.

Well of course it's a cline, which can be proved by a PCA plot I posted in a thread earlier. Afghan Pashtuns are more western shifted and have Tajiks, Balochis, Brahuis and Kalash as their closest reference populations in admixture results—all of whom are south-central Asian groups. Of course, Sindhis show up too, but usually as the 5th or 6th result, but Sindhis tend to show up for other Eastern Iranian people too, probably due to the slightly higher ASI component that Eastern Iranians have. Eastern Iranians have this component because their ancestors who came down from the Urals (known as Aryans) absorbed some of the indigenous people that once lived in Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc.

Here's a chart depicting Eastern Iranians vs. North West Indians and Tamils from Tamil Nadu. Notice the distinction between Afghan Pashtuns and Pakistani Pashtuns. Of course, there are Pakistani Pashtuns who are as west-shifted as Afghan Pashtuns, but most Pakistani Pashtuns who have been tested tend to cluster with Sindhis or within themselves, and there's even one who clusters much far away from Sindhis, and is nearer to an individual from Tamil Nadu than the most western shifted Afghan Pashtun. That's pretty large difference! Though I'm sure that Pakistani Pashtuns from Waziristan and the more tribal regions will cluster more with the Afghan Pashtuns. I'm not sure where the Pakistani Pashtuns are from in the sample used for this PCA plot.



Furthermore, Pashto is not the only eastern iranian language with retroflexive consonants. There were many eastern iranian languages with retroflexive consonants but they are now extinct. Wakhi, a language spoken in Pamir, still has retroflexive consonants, as does Ormuri. Eastern Iranian languages preserved the retroflexive consonant which the other branches of Iranian languages did not. Retroflexive consonants were most likely used in the languages spoken by our ancestors (Scythians, etc.). Furthermore, retroflexive consonants are also common in some European languages, such as Swedish, Norwegian, etc. Thus, saying that Pashto is the only Eastern Iranian language that has retroflexive consonants is incorrect. Furthermore, just because it has retroflexive consonants doesn't really prove anything other than the fact that it's an Eastern Iranian language, since Eastern Iranian languages tend to have retroflexive consonants.

[Adam]

Well of course it's a cline, which can be proved by a PCA plot I posted in a thread earlier. Afghan Pashtuns are more western shifted and have Tajiks, Balochis, Brahuis and Kalash as their closest reference populations in admixture results—all of whom are south-central Asian groups. Of course, Sindhis show up too, but usually as the 5th or 6th result, but Sindhis tend to show up for other Eastern Iranian people too, probably due to the slightly higher ASI component that Eastern Iranians have. Eastern Iranians have this component because their ancestors who came down from the Urals (known as Aryans) absorbed some of the indigenous people that once lived in Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc.

Here's a chart depicting Eastern Iranians vs. North West Indians and Tamils from Tamil Nadu. Notice the distinction between Afghan Pashtuns and Pakistani Pashtuns. Of course, there are Pakistani Pashtuns who are as west-shifted as Afghan Pashtuns, but most Pakistani Pashtuns who have been tested tend to cluster with Sindhis or within themselves, and there's even one who clusters much far away from Sindhis, and is nearer to an individual from Tamil Nadu than the most western shifted Afghan Pashtun. That's pretty large difference! Though I'm sure that Pakistani Pashtuns from Waziristan and the more tribal regions will cluster more with the Afghan Pashtuns. I'm not sure where the Pakistani Pashtuns are from in the sample used for this PCA plot.



Furthermore, Pashto is not the only eastern iranian language with retroflexive consonants. There were many eastern iranian languages with retroflexive consonants but they are now extinct. Wakhi, a language spoken in Pamir, still has retroflexive consonants, as does Ormuri. Eastern Iranian languages preserved the retroflexive consonant which the other branches of Iranian languages did not. Retroflexive consonants were most likely used in the languages spoken by our ancestors (Scythians, etc.). Furthermore, retroflexive consonants are also common in some European languages, such as Swedish, Norwegian, etc. Thus, saying that Pashto is the only Eastern Iranian language that has retroflexive consonants is incorrect. Furthermore, just because it has retroflexive consonants doesn't really prove anything other than the fact that it's an Eastern Iranian language, since Eastern Iranian languages tend to have retroflexive consonants.

Your image doesn't show for me, link?

[tripledouble]

Well of course it's a cline, which can be proved by a PCA plot I posted in a thread earlier. Afghan Pashtuns are more western shifted and have Tajiks, Balochis, Brahuis and Kalash as their closest reference populations in admixture results—all of whom are south-central Asian groups. Of course, Sindhis show up too, but usually as the 5th or 6th result, but Sindhis tend to show up for other Eastern Iranian people too, probably due to the slightly higher ASI component that Eastern Iranians have. Eastern Iranians have this component because their ancestors who came down from the Urals (known as Aryans) absorbed some of the indigenous people that once lived in Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc.

Kalash are the benchmark population used a reference for all groups stretching from indus basin to oxus river.

Here's a chart depicting Eastern Iranians vs. North West Indians and Tamils from Tamil Nadu. Notice the distinction between Afghan Pashtuns and Pakistani Pashtuns. Of course, there are Pakistani Pashtuns who are as west-shifted as Afghan Pashtuns, but most Pakistani Pashtuns who have been tested tend to cluster with Sindhis or within themselves, and there's even one who clusters much far away from Sindhis, and is nearer to an individual from Tamil Nadu than the most western shifted Afghan Pashtun. That's pretty large difference!

can't see your pic.

that guy could be a fake, loads of "pathans" in india who have distant ancestry, he probaby is mixed with tamil.

anywho, genetics is very premature right now, once big portions of populations of every ethnicity is taken, then we can a better aproxmation and get idea of racial makeup of ethnic groups

Though I'm sure that Pakistani Pashtuns from Waziristan and the more tribal regions will cluster more with the Afghan Pashtuns. I'm not sure where the Pakistani Pashtuns are from in the sample used for this PCA plot.

the samples or harappa are from khurram agency in fata, it's next to afg, & they still have high s.indian

Furthermore, Pashto is not the only eastern iranian language with retroflexive consonants. There were many eastern iranian languages with retroflexive consonants but they are now extinct. Wakhi, a language spoken in Pamir, still has retroflexive consonants, as does Ormuri. Eastern Iranian languages preserved the retroflexive consonant which the other branches of Iranian languages did not. Retroflexive consonants were most likely used in the languages spoken by our ancestors (Scythians, etc.). Furthermore, retroflexive consonants are also common in some European languages, such as Swedish, Norwegian, etc. Thus, saying that Pashto is the only Eastern Iranian language that has retroflexive consonants is incorrect. Furthermore, just because it has retroflexive consonants doesn't really prove anything other than the fact that it's an Eastern Iranian language, since Eastern Iranian languages tend to have retroflexive consonants.

Pashto is the main east iranic lang. with retroflex consonants, rest are extinct or are too small, such as wakhi which is just spoken by few thousand ppl or ormuri spoken by just 1 pashtun tribe, and like you admit that east iranic languages have retroflexive consonants, it is because east iranic ppl live on border with south asia, they got it through interaction with indo aryan or many pashtuns also have some indoaryan origins.