‪#‎SaveShafqat‬

[Brown Skinned Savage]

Sorry homeskillet; that question doesn't even make sense, especially in the context of murder (where someone has died and can't be brought back anyways) vs. Stopping someone from taking someone's life in an attack. How do you know for certain future victims will be saved? These are things virtually unpredictable and as we see murders happen even though we have the death penalty, clearly not effective.

[khushal]

you are the one who said killing was barbaric.

So killing in self defense is ok if luck is on your side where opportunity presents itself, but killing the murderer after the fact where the murderer was lucky that opportunity did not present itself for the victim to defend himself or the murderer surprised the victim or overwhelmed the victim where the victim had no chance.

What kind of sloppy logic is that. opportunity should not be a factor to determine when killing a murderer is ok. Either its ok or not, you cant have it both ways.

[khushal]

That's not the only reason why; and the fact they as you put it "delay, delay, delay" is a good thing. It's apart of due process, they want to make sure every possible stone has not been overlooked. So that a bunch of people don't need to lose their lives over nothing.

Other reasons is because the actual act of execution is costly.

I never said delay was bad. You were talking to shahbaz who lives in a country where the murderer can easily buy his freedom and possible kill again and also a country where executions are cheaper than jail which is why criminals can buy their freedom. There is no incentive for a poor country to keep them in jail
when there is incentive for them to let them go for a price.

The actual act of execution is not costly. ITs just an electric current that cost less than 50 cents.

[Brown Skinned Savage]

In Countries like Shahbaz, wealthy, important people rarely get executed for murder, you in fact have demonstrated one of the flaws of capital punishment that it is incredibly slanted in favor of existing power structures.

The reason executions would be cheaper than jail in Pakistan is because they don't have any real due process system which means people are probably not given fair trials, forced confessions are given weight or political expediency just needs a scapegoat to appease the masses.

A system that allows a wealthy killer to go scot free is the same system that condemns people without fair trials or due process so it's less "costly". It goes hand in hand.

[Brown Skinned Savage]

you are the one who said killing was barbaric.

Nope I said the Death Penalty is barbaric. saving your life, is saving your life. Apples and Oranges. the point of death penalty is vengeance; it's the sick joy and satisfaction of exacting the same vicious crime on another person. In self defense you're just trying to do what you can to be safe from dying. The process and intent are worlds apart.

[khushal]

you call it vengeance, I call it justice. killing is killing whether you call it death sentence or killing so you wont be killed. The process is delayed in one over the other, the result is the same.

[khushal]

In Countries like Shahbaz, wealthy, important people rarely get executed for murder, you in fact have demonstrated one of the flaws of capital punishment that it is incredibly slanted in favor of existing power structures.

The reason executions would be cheaper than jail in Pakistan is because they don't have any real due process system which means people are probably not given fair trials, forced confessions are given weight or political expediency just needs a scapegoat to appease the masses.

A system that allows a wealthy killer to go scot free is the same system that condemns people without fair trials or due process so it's less "costly". It goes hand in hand.

In countries like paksitan, forced confessions are usually done so the real killer is to go free. Its just another way for the wealthy and powerful to manipulate the system for their own benefit.

But that happens here in the US as well where people like OJ simpson has the money to buy a dream team layers and gets away with murder where the poor(guilty or innocent) has no such luxury.

Capital punishment is not the cause of this corruption, it is man himself who develops a system for himself to benefit from.

[Brown Skinned Savage]

Indeed; Capital Punishment is the product of corruption; not the source. I could have told you that. Capital Punishment was created by those in power to tyrannize those without it. So with your views, not sure why you'd support it.

I would never claim ANY state system is valid, American or Otherwise. But clearly due process is a valid JUST on grounds that it seeks to eliminate those errors as much as possible.

The OJ scenario isn't the same as what happens in Pakistan; In Pakistan they actually pay off the courts/judiciary/prosecution. In OJ's case he bought a good lawyer that got him off on a technicality. That can definitely happen, but, still the extreme minority compared to a bunch of people who were later shown not guilty of a crime but executed.

You may call it "justice" but what "justice" is it to do the same act to someone that when they did it was deemed evil. Execution is pre-meditated murder too which makes moral culpability the highest. If there's any example of sloppy logic; it would be for capital punishment. Not to mention saying killing in self defense is the same as capital punishment because the killer ends up dead in both instances.......That's like saying A prostitute is the same as a Wife because, ultimately they're both intimate with men; That's an Incongruence Fallacy; being alike in one respect doesn't make two things "alike".

[Shehbaz Khan]

Civilized people don't feed the killers within a safe boundary. What the so called civilized people did to Osama Bin Ladin and the rest of the 'terrorists' ..

Give it a break about his age stuff. If I kill a fellow human being today no matter what my age is I am responsible for it. We aren't talking about breaking a glass or a car window that some teen did while he was a 'kid' we are talking about killing a fellow human being and if you can do that you need to face the music no matter what your age is.

[Shehbaz Khan]

It costs less to do that than stage an execution.

Oh really, you mean to say that the guy Solat Mirza should have not been hanged in 2000 because on his execution the cost would have been more than the cost of his bread and breakfast and all the facilities that are provided to him til 2015?

In Countries like Shahbaz, wealthy, important people rarely get executed for murder, you in fact have demonstrated one of the flaws of capital punishment that it is incredibly slanted in favor of existing power structures.

You're right. But if justice isn't provided to one person that doesn't mean it should not be provided to the other person as well?

The reason executions would be cheaper than jail in Pakistan is because they don't have any real due process system which means people are probably not given fair trials, forced confessions are given weight or political expediency just needs a scapegoat to appease the masses.

A system that allows a wealthy killer to go scot free is the same system that condemns people without fair trials or due process so it's less "costly". It goes hand in hand.

Oh really, but the due process system is needed when you have to convict someone. The cases we are having in most of them the criminals have admitted that they have committed the crime. And it's not a scape goat to appease the masses. It's a lesson for many other Saulta Mirzas in the making. It will be a lesson for anybody who will be trying to make a plan or execute a plan to blow GHQ, APS Peshawar or any other significant place.

Again it's the same reply to your last three lines. If justice was denied in your case that doesn't mean that justice should/must be not granted to me as well.

[Brown Skinned Savage]

Under what conditions do these people "admit" crimes Shehbaz ......important to consider


If I was a 14 year old getting raped and tortured, I'd admit to being the Devil Incarnate to get them to stop.

[Shehbaz Khan]

^ You're now taking me to the thinking that he person has not committed the crime? Is it so? If that's the case I don't want any innocent person to be hanged. But I'll welcome the hanging of any criminal whoever it may be. No matter what his age is if he can kill some one he needs to be punished.

[Brown Skinned Savage]

It's just that confessions under dubious circumstances and conviction expediency usually insinuates the possibly that something is severely wrong with the criminal justice procedures.

The idea that killing is a valid punishment has somewhat hypocritical notions in the first place.

[khushal]

Indeed; Capital Punishment is the product of corruption; not the source. I could have told you that. Capital Punishment was created by those in power to tyrannize those without it. So with your views, not sure why you'd support it.

I would never claim ANY state system is valid, American or Otherwise. But clearly due process is a valid JUST on grounds that it seeks to eliminate those errors as much as possible.

The OJ scenario isn't the same as what happens in Pakistan; In Pakistan they actually pay off the courts/judiciary/prosecution. In OJ's case he bought a good lawyer that got him off on a technicality. That can definitely happen, but, still the extreme minority compared to a bunch of people who were later shown not guilty of a crime but executed.

You may call it "justice" but what "justice" is it to do the same act to someone that when they did it was deemed evil. Execution is pre-meditated murder too which makes moral culpability the highest. If there's any example of sloppy logic; it would be for capital punishment. Not to mention saying killing in self defense is the same as capital punishment because the killer ends up dead in both instances.......That's like saying A prostitute is the same as a Wife because, ultimately they're both intimate with men; That's an Incongruence Fallacy; being alike in one respect doesn't make two things "alike".

What do you mean its the product but not the source, if it is the product, then it is the source. People can use anything for good or bad. Take a knife, put it in a surgeons hand and he/she saves a life, put it in murderer's hand and he/she takes a life.

There has to be compensation, if a someone intentionally takes a life, he must give it back, he cant do that, so he must give up his. I know that does not bring the original life that was taken back, but that is the closest compensation. The murderer must put himself in the same place as where he put the victim.

[khushal]

^ You're now taking me to the thinking that he person has not committed the crime? Is it so? If that's the case I don't want any innocent person to be hanged. But I'll welcome the hanging of any criminal whoever it may be. No matter what his age is if he can kill some one he needs to be punished.

Is there any other evidence that was used to convict Shafqat besides the confession(which was done under torture)?