Can we agree on.....

[Admin Khan]

Some ground realities that I myself have realized is that isolationism will never succeed. Instead, a step by step educational process, where facts are exposed, would lead to unity. The more one demonizes, or consistently plays the blame game, the more difficult it is to find a common ground. For example, one fact to face, whether or not one likes it is:

1)The majority of Pashtuns live in what is known today as Pakistan.

A perfect example is [MENTION=13640]Pakwatan[/MENTION] who is still a proud Pakistani, but once he realized the atrocities and terror that Pak Fauj commits, he condemned them, and was disgusted at their action, and for once understood why Pashtuns have such resentment towards the army of the Banana Republic.

In other words, excluding those of Pakistan, or outright forcing them to change their nationality without offering any discourse, or rationale, or giving them a chance to express their views, will result in a discussion that is moot and will only make matters worse.

[EvilPakistani]

Act more like a representative of pakistan like @EvilPakistani

lol How am i a representative of Pakistan?!I just air my personal opinions on stuff.

[Kushan Prince]

So no punjsheri crossed into pashtunkhwa due to war in afghanistan?
Looks to me that you never been to a country call afghanistan.

Looks like i haven't been to afghanistan?

I believe you meant that i've never been to Peshawar. Please word your words correctly next time.

[Pakwatan]

Looks like i haven't been to afghanistan?

I believe you meant that i've never been to Peshawar. Please word your words correctly next time.

Where have you been in Afghanistan?

[Khostai]

i have been to afghanistan more then one time.
Dose your relatives speak pashtu with tajiks in kabul?
in kabul and the farsiban dominated areas i was stoped and even serached cus i could,nt respond them in parsi.I found them racists towards pashtuns.
I found them pashtu haters.Some of them know pashtu but do,nt like speaking it.
Jalal abad,kandar and khost etc are pashtun areas and pashtuns are same people,no discrimnation there.

The refugees from our area camp try to return and came back after few months.They were called pakis cus could,nt talk in parsi.
The tajiks and uzbiks refused to give them their land and they had no choice but to come back.
Same in takhar province where they forced pashtun refugees back.
The takhar crisis can be confirmed with benewa newspapers.

I was never stoped or searched, when I went to a shop that was of Farsiban and when they heard us speaking PAshtu they actulay responded to us in Pashtu, I could hear that they were not PAshtun becuase of the accent.

We also went to Mazar, no problems there, but the people couldn't speak in PAshtu with us, only the Pashtuns could do that, I don't know if they didn't know how to speak or just refused, but any way I didn't had any racist expiriance, but aren't you from Pakistan? Mayeb becuase you had a Pakistany Passport that they didn't trust you, lately there is alot of mistrust towards paki due to a lot of suicide bombers.....

About the refugees the same thing happend in Pashtun area where other Pashtun took land and houses from the people who had fled. I can remember how some people took our house when my family fled Khost in the war and were not willing to give back.....But we forced them out.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Looks like i haven't been to afghanistan?

I believe you meant that i've never been to Peshawar. Please word your words correctly next time.

Actually he's right, you say things like someone who has never been there.

[Kushan Prince]

Where have you been in Afghanistan?

Kabul and Mazar.

[Kushan Prince]

I honestly think this thread in general is kind of wrong because its singling out Pakistani Pashtuns and causing more diversions instead of aiming for unity. Obviously the OP opened this thread out of sheer anger towards his kinsmen across the Durrand line and whats more disturbing is that he's a mod who holds these kind of views. It might be his opinion sure, but I didn't expect a mod to open such a derogatory and pointless thread just for the sole purpose of attention because a mod's job is to deal with inappropriate posts, delete threads that are meant to harm or speak ill against pashtuns from a particular area, and not to mention its his job to keep the forum balanced. I concur with Shebazz that this is the internet where we are unconfined to post or express our thoughts wherever we want. I wouldn't like it myself if i was asked to keep out of posting on a thread because i wasn't from that particular tribe or area, in fact i would be pretty offended so how would you like it if that happened to you?

I therefore request the mods if they have any decency left in them to close this thread.

[pashtanajan]

Afghanistan cannot be a truly democratic country if "qaum parasty" persists. I don't care if one is Tajik, Baloch, Uzbek, Hazara, Pashtun, or blue, as long as he or she is a moral and upright human being, regardless of their religious affiliation (sunni, shia, etc.) then he or she gets my respect.

I don't care for Pashtun dominance over Afghanistan or Tajik dominance, as they're both evils, and ideologies that aren't so different from one another. Every ethnic group in Afghanistan deserves to be heard and every ethnic group must be granted the right to learn and speak their own language if they wish. Currently, Pashtuns, Uzbeks and other ethnic groups who don't speak Farsi are not able to gain the same quality of education in their own language in Afghanistan as Farsizubans. This is wrong and must be changed, but Farsizubans must not be suppressed in the process.

Pashto, as a language, does not flourish and grow by suppressing other languages. We must eradicate illiteracy amongst Pashtuns, built many schools in which Pashto is taught in regions where Pashtuns have a relatively large population, and fund Pashto literature, etc. if we wish for Pashto to strengthen.

A Pashtun fanatic and a Tajik fanatic are more similar than different in the way they view the world around them. I abhor them both equally.

I have met good people from all ethnic groups, and I don't view a whole ethnic group in the same light because of a few bad apples. There's good and bad people everywhere. The bad just tend to be louder because they're brutes.

[MostafaM]

Afghanistan cannot be a truly democratic country if "qaum parasty" persists. I don't care if one is Tajik, Baloch, Uzbek, Hazara, Pashtun, or blue, as long as he or she is a moral and upright human being, regardless of their religious affiliation (sunni, shia, etc.) then he or she gets my respect.

I don't care for Pashtun dominance over Afghanistan or Tajik dominance, as they're both evils, and ideologies that aren't so different from one another. Every ethnic group in Afghanistan deserves to be heard and every ethnic group must be granted the right to learn and speak their own language if they wish. Currently, Pashtuns, Uzbeks and other ethnic groups who don't speak Farsi are not able to gain the same quality of education in their own language in Afghanistan as Farsizubans. This is wrong and must be changed, but Farsizubans must not be suppressed in the process.

Pashto, as a language, does not flourish and grow by suppressing other languages. We must eradicate illiteracy amongst Pashtuns, built many schools in which Pashto is taught in regions where Pashtuns have a relatively large population, and fund Pashto literature, etc. if we wish for Pashto to strengthen.

A Pashtun fanatic and a Tajik fanatic are more similar than different in the way they view the world around them. I abhor them both equally.

I have met good people from all ethnic groups, and I don't view a whole ethnic group in the same light because of a few bad apples. There's good and bad people everywhere. The bad just tend to be louder because they're brutes.

You missed the point of the discussion completly!

It´s about uniting a people with a positive attitude of respect for themselves and others.
Uniting people based on their own heritage is per se not chauvenistic towards others because the empowerment of your own people means automatically that you have to respect everyone else´s empowerment, will for freedom and autonomy, too. Otherwise it´s dishonest and doomed to fail.

Pashtuns/Afghans need to be able to secure their own cultural, political and national future without making compromises on them. Normally that´s only possible in a nation state that has a mono-culture and language.
If Afghans/Pashtuns could achieve that in a multi-ethnic entity like current Afghanistan then I would go for it but that seems highly unlikely.

The Pashtuns across the Durand-Line are lost culturally and linguistically. Their heritage will be gone in another 70 years after they have been integrated into Punjabi-led Pakistan forever and their kids will only talk in thise disturbing Urdu-English mix with some Pashto words in it.
I don´t care about and I wish them well if they choose this path.

Pashtuns/Afghans can´t rely on this hippy style of world view that we are all Afghans (all ethnicities inside Afghanistan) and can live together.
If you open your eyes and look back the last 22 years, from 1992 untill now, you will realize that your distorted way of looking at ground realities is really misplaced.

Pashtun/Afghan empowerment hasn´t or I should better shouldn´t have any chauvenistic, racist or ethnocentric view towards others.
But it should definitly be an approach of looking inwards, find our own shortcomings, coming together in good and trying to overcome our divisions and failures of the past.

[MostafaM]

I honestly think this thread in general is kind of wrong because its singling out Pakistani Pashtuns and causing more diversions instead of aiming for unity. Obviously the OP opened this thread out of sheer anger towards his kinsmen across the Durrand line and whats more disturbing is that he's a mod who holds these kind of views. It might be his opinion sure, but I didn't expect a mod to open such a derogatory and pointless thread just for the sole purpose of attention because a mod's job is to deal with inappropriate posts, delete threads that are meant to harm or speak ill against pashtuns from a particular area, and not to mention its his job to keep the forum balanced. I concur with Shebazz that this is the internet where we are unconfined to post or express our thoughts wherever we want. I wouldn't like it myself if i was asked to keep out of posting on a thread because i wasn't from that particular tribe or area, in fact i would be pretty offended so how would you like it if that happened to you?

I therefore request the mods if they have any decency left in them to close this thread.

Your arguements are noted.

But I made my point clear.
I was referring to any Pashtun who is loyal to Pakistan.
A state that tries to undermine it´s Pashtun identity since day one, misuses him in proxy-wars and will always sell him out if his UK/US boss will ask for it.

I excluded the Pashtuns who are loyal to an entity that tries to destroy or assimilate them into this fake "Pakistani identity" that has actually no historic, religious, cultural or ethnic meaning.
What is Pakistan and what is Pashtun?

This thread is going to stay because it is directed towards those Pashtuns (wherever they may be) who want to come together and take their own destiny into their own hands.

I hope my point is clear.

[pashtanajan]

You missed the point of the discussion completly!

It´s about uniting a people with a positive attitude of respect for themselves and others.
Uniting people based on their own heritage is per se not chauvenistic towards others because the empowerment of your own people means automatically that you have to respect everyone else´s empowerment, will for freedom and autonomy, too. Otherwise it´s dishonest and doomed to fail.

Pashtuns/Afghans need to be able to secure their own cultural, political and national future without making compromises on them. Normally that´s only possible in a nation state that has a mono-culture and language.
If Afghans/Pashtuns could achieve that in a multi-ethnic entity like current Afghanistan then I would go for it but that seems highly unlikely.

The Pashtuns across the Durand-Line are lost culturally and linguistically. Their heritage will be gone in another 70 years after they have been integrated into Punjabi-led Pakistan forever and their kids will only talk in thise disturbing Urdu-English mix with some Pashto words in it.
I don´t care about and I wish them well if they choose this path.

Pashtuns/Afghans can´t rely on this hippy style of world view that we are all Afghans (all ethnicities inside Afghanistan) and can live together.
If you open your eyes and look back the last 22 years, from 1992 untill now, you will realize that your distorted way of looking at ground realities is really misplaced.

Pashtun/Afghan empowerment hasn´t or I should better shouldn´t have any chauvenistic, racist or ethnocentric view towards others.
But it should definitly be an approach of looking inwards, find our own shortcomings, coming together in good and trying to overcome our divisions and failures of the past.

I wasn't responding to your post. My comment was in response to some of the posts in your thread.

I am from a northern province in Afghanistan and my family has always interacted with other ethnic groups. I consider them my own people as well. I have plenty of Tajik, Uzbek, and Hazara friends. Many of my family members have intermarried with them and vice-versa. There are millions of Afghans in Afghanistan who are not from solely one Afghan ethnic group. What will happen to them if we continue to hold onto the notion that Afghanistan must be a mono-lithic and mono-ethnic society? We've been living side by side with other ethnic groups for hundreds of years. The only reason that there seems to be so much blood-shed and ethnic tension between the various groups in Afghanistan is because all of them feel that they're not well-represented in the government and their voices are not being heard.

Founding a country on ethnonationalism won't bring peace to Pashtuns. Pashtuns have never been truly united in the past, so why should they now? Our tribal culture is why we can't move forwards. I don't care for tribalism or pashtunwali. Cultures and traditions change overtime; let us discard of the traditions holding us back.

I'm a humanist. There's nothing 'hippie' about my worldview. Every ethnic group in Afghanistan should feel secure. I understand that there is ethnic tension in Afghanistan, and that is certainly understandable. But it doesn't have to be like this. We, the new generation, have the capacity to overlook such trivialities, and work together to prosper and built our nations together.

You didn't choose to be born a Pashtun, neither did a Tajik choose to be born a Tajik. All of us, however, live in same country, side-by-side, and we must learn to co-operate. How is this a ''hippie'' perspective? It's terribly important for us adopt this view in order to prosper together, and to avoid further war and blood-shed. Our psychopathic warlords from all ethnic groups in Afghanistan have been brainwashing and indoctrinating their own people as cannon fodder. None of them care for Pashto, Farsi, Islam, etc. They just want power.

Maybe if us Afghans stopped being so pessimistic for a second and started believing that we could attain a peaceful Afghanistan things would change. I hate cynicism. Hope is the first step towards change.

I don't want a Pashtunistan. I really don't and neither do 80% + Afghan Pashtuns from Afghanistan, especially now that most of them have been to Pakistan, and noticed how similar they are to their other Afghan brethren than Pakistani Pashtuns. I love Afghanistan and every ethnic group within it. They have gone through the same troubles as I have and my family. They have wept when we have wept. And that's why I understand why some Pakistani Pashtuns prefer to say that they're Pakistani and not Afghan, because they feel closer to the people they have intermingled with and befriended.

Maybe if those 'nationalistic' Pashtuns on this forum started talking to people from other ethnic groups in Afghanistan and Panjabis as well (since a lot of them seem to abhor them for absurd reasons), and vice-versa, they would understand that they're not so different from them.

We all bleed red. We're all more alike than different. If you want to secure Pashto and Pashtuns then start with yourself. What contributions have you made to your people? Work on the betterment of yourself. Nationalism, etc. won't prosper Pashtuns.

Education will.

[کیش]

Would I be considered a "Pathan" if I like Punjabis and Hindkowans better than Tajiks and Uzbeks? I feel better in their company than the latter by a long shot.

just today I went to an Afgan-Uzbeki restaurant and they had the audacity to charge $10.00 w/o a drink for a plate of rice and chicken. if I went to a Pakistani restaurant, for $10 I could've fed my whole family.

[Da Bannu Mazdigar]

I wasn't responding to your post. My comment was in response to some of the posts in your thread.

I am from a northern province in Afghanistan and my family has always interacted with other ethnic groups. I consider them my own people as well. I have plenty of Tajik, Uzbek, and Hazara friends. Many of my family members have intermarried with them and vice-versa. There are millions of Afghans in Afghanistan who are not from solely one Afghan ethnic group. What will happen to them if we continue to hold onto the notion that Afghanistan must be a mono-lithic and mono-ethnic society? We've been living side by side with other ethnic groups for hundreds of years. The only reason that there seems to be so much blood-shed and ethnic tension between the various groups in Afghanistan is because all of them feel that they're not well-represented in the government and their voices are not being heard.

Founding a country on ethnonationalism won't bring peace to Pashtuns. Pashtuns have never been truly united in the past, so why should they now? Our tribal culture is why we can't move forwards. I don't care for tribalism or pashtunwali. Cultures and traditions change overtime; let us discard of the traditions holding us back.

I'm a humanist. There's nothing 'hippie' about my worldview. Every ethnic group in Afghanistan should feel secure. I understand that there is ethnic tension in Afghanistan, and that is certainly understandable. But it doesn't have to be like this. We, the new generation, have the capacity to overlook such trivialities, and work together to prosper and built our nations together.

You didn't choose to be born a Pashtun, neither did a Tajik choose to be born a Tajik. All of us, however, live in same country, side-by-side, and we must learn to co-operate. How is this a ''hippie'' perspective? It's terribly important for us adopt this view in order to prosper together, and to avoid further war and blood-shed. Our psychopathic warlords from all ethnic groups in Afghanistan have been brainwashing and indoctrinating their own people as cannon fodder. None of them care for Pashto, Farsi, Islam, etc. They just want power.

Maybe if us Afghans stopped being so pessimistic for a second and started believing that we could attain a peaceful Afghanistan things would change. I hate cynicism. Hope is the first step towards change.

I don't want a Pashtunistan. I really don't and neither do 80% + Afghan Pashtuns from Afghanistan, especially now that most of them have been to Pakistan, and noticed how similar they are to their other Afghan brethren than Pakistani Pashtuns. I love Afghanistan and every ethnic group within it. They have gone through the same troubles as I have and my family. They have wept when we have wept. And that's why I understand why some Pakistani Pashtuns prefer to say that they're Pakistani and not Afghan, because they feel closer to the people they have intermingled with and befriended.

Maybe if those 'nationalistic' Pashtuns on this forum started talking to people from other ethnic groups in Afghanistan and Panjabis as well (since a lot of them seem to abhor them for absurd reasons), and vice-versa, they would understand that they're not so different from them.

We all bleed red. We're all more alike than different. If you want to secure Pashto and Pashtuns then start with yourself. What contributions have you made to your people? Work on the betterment of yourself. Nationalism, etc. won't prosper Pashtuns.

Education will.

This is it.I don't know why some afghanistan pashtun are more concerned about Pakistani pashtuns than their own fellows tajik,uzbek,hazara etc

Pakistanis pashtuns has not suffered with you people since the past 200years or atleast the past 3decades

To an average Pashtun in Afghanistan not only tajik,uzbek/hazara etc should be more closer but even a non muslim of afghanistan should be closer than a muslim or pashtuns from Pakistan or any other state.

And similarly to the pakistani pashtuns,The Pakistani ethnicities should be more closer than anything from Afghanistan.And the Good part is more than 90% are having such view including the Talibans in waziristan.

[Da Bannu Mazdigar]

Would I be considered a "Pathan" if I like Punjabis and Hindkowans better than Tajiks and Uzbeks? I feel better in their company than the latter by a long shot.

just today I went to an Afgan-Uzbeki restaurant and they had the audacity to charge $10.00 w/o a drink for a plate of rice and chicken. if I went to a Pakistani restaurant, for $10 I could've fed my whole family.

Well,In Foriegn i have seen that mostly Pakistani and Afghan restaurants are merged together