'Kabul is less conservative than Pakistani cities' because you get to hear less Azaan

[khushal]

Why is it that pashtun culture can only be reprecented by rurals? So the city peopel don't count? Is that it? if even in the future 60% of pashtun gona live in the city and there customs may be difrent from the villages still the villigers would be the true Pashtuns and the city peopel not? Is that what you are geting at the whole time whith your urban this and urban that?
You can say it is a farsiwan dress but most of the time Pashtun women wearing it.

Not all of Khost is one big city. My grandmother lives in a village. When we went there my mother plus my sister had chadari on. And we went from her house to our uncle walking my mother and sister were wearing chadari.
Yes chadari was before taliban and yes it is a farsiwan custom, but taliban inforced it one every woman and pashtuns are seeing chadari as part of there culture.

but you have no proof of anything you are saying.

[Khostai]

Khushal you proved also nothing you post picture of really old or young girls. And than say that Pashtun women don't wear chadari. LOL
Like I said old and littel girls like in the last picture don't wear them all the other do wear chdari. And by the way you see a male teacher standing in front of the girls that proofs that the so called "women" are young girls becuase if you knew something about Pashtun culture you would know that male teachers are not allowed to teach young women there can only be a female teacher. -_-

[Gulalai]

You are wrong. Chadari is a farsiwan custom, Pastuns that live in urban settings do wear them but it wasnt introduced by the taliban, its been there for decades. In pashtun villiges though it does not exist. women wear the traditional tekri. Your family that live in khost wear them because khost is an urban setting, if you go outside of khost into the villiges, you wont see it.
If it is incorparated in pashtun culture, then show us proof of your claims, show us a pashtun village where the burqa is worn.

Not to interfere into this conversation since i dont many fact about the history of the buqra... but in my village in nangarhar women wear buqras. If you wear just a sadaar people will assume you're coming from the city

[DaZahroJaam.]

some people can backtrack pretty good but your attempt is ridiculous.

i dot think I need to emphasis on the lack of damn tat I give abut their opinions of mine so why would do say one thing a backtrack from it later??
You are so unused to the idea of speaking something for the sole reason of believing in it that the idea of someone else doing it is just out of question for you.
That question was a rhetorical so don't waste your time by answering it.

[pashtanajan]

Why is it that pashtun culture can only be reprecented by rurals? So the city peopel don't count? Is that it? if even in the future 60% of pashtun gona live in the city and there customs may be difrent from the villages still the villigers would be the true Pashtuns and the city peopel not? Is that what you are geting at the whole time whith your urban this and urban that?
You can say it is a farsiwan dress but most of the time Pashtun women wearing it.

Not all of Khost is one big city. My grandmother lives in a village. When we went there my mother plus my sister had chadari on. And we went from her house to our uncle walking my mother and sister were wearing chadari.
Yes chadari was before taliban and yes it is a farsiwan custom, but taliban inforced it one every woman and pashtuns are seeing chadari as part of there culture.

The fact is most Pashtuns live in villages not cities. Also, the customs Pashtuns have in villages differ from those in the cities, mainly because of less intermingling with other ethnicities. Therefore, the traditions are less 'tarnished' so to say. And, quit talking about the future, you're proving nothing with that point. Afghanistan is still an agricultural society, it's going to take years for most of the population to move to cities.

Here's a picture in Paktia:



But I'm sure you'll find faults in this picture as well.

And Pashtuns do not see the chadari as their 'custom'. That's laughable. Since when did the burqa become a tradition in Pashtun culture? If people do wear the chadari it's not due to 'cultural' purposes or tradition, but rather it's due to safety and security, because Afghanistan right now isn't exactly safe. It's why you see less burqas in safer areas, and more burqas in areas that aren't as safe. Khost, isn't exactly a safe area.

The burkas are not an aspect in Pashtun culture. Here's a very old painting of the Qizilbash (persians):



The burka has always been a cultural aspect of the farsizuban in Afghanistan. It always has been and still is. Do you think if Afghanistan stabilizes, and women have to fear no threat that Pashtun females will continue to wear chadaris?

[khushal]

Khushal you proved also nothing you post picture of really old or young girls. And than say that Pashtun women don't wear chadari. LOL
Like I said old and littel girls like in the last picture don't wear them all the other do wear chdari. And by the way you see a male teacher standing in front of the girls that proofs that the so called "women" are young girls becuase if you knew something about Pashtun culture you would know that male teachers are not allowed to teach young women there can only be a female teacher. -_-

go back to the post. your ignoring the harvard report by palwasha kakar which states what I am saying.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

go back to the post. your ignoring the harvard report by palwasha kakar which states what I am saying.

Hey Salamoona Khushaal

You know what Gulalai has said may be interesting because Pashtuns are very regional. The origin of the cloth like Mostafa is saying may be Persian... but in a way maybe you, Pashtanajan, and Khostai are all regionally and village-wise correct. The reason being - I traveled from Chaman all the way up in a zig zag pattern back and forth across the border years ago on a medical tour up to Chitral. Customs varied even city to city much less village to village.

I think culturwise you and Admin are correct about the Pashtun way of dressing since the 1800s... the Wazirs, perhaps the strictest of the tribes, had women wearing long black clothes that did not cover the face because their way of life was half nomadic and half sedentary. And, when stranger men would encounter them they would walk to the side and throw the long piece temporarily over their face.

So maybe in Khostai's area thats the norm but as he admits not what was original. And in your locale what you describe may be the norm.

In some of the villages outside Kandahar the burqah is utilized and in other locales its not (see the picture of Anar Gula):
http://babyboomeradvisorclub.com/201...f-afghanistan/

I cannot find it but there is a also a video after the Panjwai massacre of one of the widows who was very angry giving an interivew in her burqah. I think it was a Frontline special.

So in summary, all here may be correct because just as the joke is that Pashto varies from village to village the customs may also vary from village to village to a certain degree.

The more fascinating thing is historical. So take a look at this book that Haris posted. I dont know for sure but the book seems to indicate that the author was a first hand witness to some events. So take a look at this very interesting information:

Here is how our men may have dressed originally:

http://www.pashtunforums.com/showthr...765#post652765

"Their costume is very diflferent to that of other
nations, particularly their long upper garment!^, which
are of an extraordinary shape, and resemble the pro-
boscis of an elephant. They wear coarsely woven socks,
but leave their legs imcovered. Before mounting oh
horseback, they bind some piece of leather round their
feet; men of all ranks throw a cloak over their
shoulders, to defend them and their accoutrements
from the Sim and rain. They wind round their heads
pieces of white, red, and green cotton, joined together,
raising them up in a peak in front, but letting them
hang down behind as far as the loins. Since the con-
quest of Persia, they have assumed the turban of that
country, and adopted gold-embroidered robes, which
reach as far as their knees, but have not abandoned
the use of their sock ; and wherever they be, seat
themselves on the ground, without sweeping away
the dust."

perhaps to validate here is a supposed picture of the turban casing of Ahmad Shah Abdali:

http://www.pactradio.com/transform/4...x/p2100044.jpg

So even the famous lengthy turbans of the modern era reflect an adapation of Persian head dress as opposed to the original turban of the Pashtuns.

Then take a look at the womens ware of the Hotakyaan:

"The women go about with their faces uncovered, wearing no veil ; of which in fact they have no need, as beauty is very rare among them, they being in general an ugly race. In their ears, as well as on
the necks of their horses, they place crystal ornaments,
and fasten the girdle of their dress immediately over
the chest, below the breasts, and thus leave them
uncovered. The hair is braided round the head,
adorned with horse-tails. They wear the Persian
slipper, but in a dirty place carry them in their hands,
and walk bare-footed; and if interrogated as to their
reasons for this conduct, they answer that it is easy to
wash the feet, but spoiled sandals must be replaced
with new."

Now I dont agree with the beauty part obviously

The part I italicized is interesting because I cannot tell whether he is talking about the men again or still talking about the women folk because he is discussing what goes on the horses.

Might be sensationalization by a foreigner as they say even Marco Polo, like Greg Mortensen may have "spiced" things up a bit... but interesting nonetheless.

[Khostai]

The fact is most Pashtuns live in villages not cities. Also, the customs Pashtuns have in villages differ from those in the cities, mainly because of less intermingling with other ethnicities. Therefore, the traditions are less 'tarnished' so to say. And, quit talking about the future, you're proving nothing with that point. Afghanistan is still an agricultural society, it's going to take years for most of the population to move to cities.

Here's a picture in Paktia:



But I'm sure you'll find faults in this picture as well.

And Pashtuns do not see the chadari as their 'custom'. That's laughable. Since when did the burqa become a tradition in Pashtun culture? If people do wear the chadari it's not due to 'cultural' purposes or tradition, but rather it's due to safety and security, because Afghanistan right now isn't exactly safe. It's why you see less burqas in safer areas, and more burqas in areas that aren't as safe. Khost, isn't exactly a safe area.

The burkas are not an aspect in Pashtun culture. Here's a very old painting of the Qizilbash (persians):



The burka has always been a cultural aspect of the farsizuban in Afghanistan. It always has been and still is. Do you think if Afghanistan stabilizes, and women have to fear no threat that Pashtun females will continue to wear chadaris?

Yes, and urban places in Khost, Helmand, Paktia and Jalalabad have almost no other minorities they are mostly Pashtun and still they wear there chadari.
It was farsiban custome but now its more of Pashtun than any one elses.
You peopel need some reality check and visit Afghanistan for yourself instead of posting pictures and papers that are made by foreigners.

And in that picture again you post some young girls who sit in the class. No one wears chadari in class.

[khushal]

Yes, and urban places in Khost, Helmand, Paktia and Jalalabad have almost no other minorities they are mostly Pashtun and still they wear there chadari.
It was farsiban custome but now its more of Pashtun than any one elses.
You peopel need some reality check and visit Afghanistan for yourself instead of posting pictures and papers that are made by foreigners.

And in that picture again you post some young girls who sit in the class. No one wears chadari in class.

Actually, Khost, Gardez, Jalalabad have a sizable tajik population and in shamoli, chadari is very common in urban centers as well as villages.

But BarackzaAbdali is correct. What you and Gulalai are saying is completely foreign to my area. No one in our area wears chadari. Also your claim of it being incorporated into pashtun culture is baseless.

[Khostai]

Actually, Khost, Gardez, Jalalabad have a sizable tajik population and in shamoli, chadari is very common in urban centers as well as villages.

But BarackzaAbdali is correct. What you and Gulalai are saying is completely foreign to my area. No one in our area wears chadari. Also your claim of it being incorporated into pashtun culture is baseless.

Its becuase your lack of knowledge about Pashtun culture. You must be one of those peopel who were really small when they left Afghanistan or are born in the west and everything that you know about Pashtun culture is from stories from you parents. Khost don't have tajik minorities that is Paktia.... But still that is really small and they all speak Pashtu and are more assimilated to Pashtun customes that other way around.

[khushal]

. Khost don't have tajik minorities that is Paktia.... But still that is really small and they all speak Pashtu and are more assimilated to Pashtun customes that other way around.

but you said there were no minorities in those cities, now your saying the opposite, and you said that pashtuns are incorporating farsiwan customes like the chadari but now your saying those tajiks are assimiliated to pashtun customes. dont contradict yourself, make up your mind

[Khostai]

but you said there were no minorities in those cities, now your saying the opposite, and you said that pashtuns are incorporating farsiwan customes like the chadari but now your saying those tajiks are assimiliated to pashtun customes. dont contradict yourself, make up your mind

I said almost no minorities, and if they are there they are really small. I said this becuase you where hammering about that only urban women wears chadari and that only becuase they are farsiban and that Pashtun don't wear it. I only said that pashtun have borowed the chadari not everything from farsiban and yes the Tajiks in Kandahar and Jalalabad are assimilated to Pashtun customes that is natural that's happens everywhere.
Don't tweist my words.

[khushal]

I said almost no minorities, and if they are there they are really small. I said this becuase you where hammering about that only urban women wears chadari and that only becuase they are farsiban and that Pashtun don't wear it. I only said that pashtun have borowed the chadari not everything from farsiban and yes the Tajiks in Kandahar and Jalalabad are assimilated to Pashtun customes that is natural that's happens everywhere.
Don't tweist my words.

No one is twisting your words.
I said people in urban settings and in the refugee camps wear them, pashtun and non pashtun.

More than 50% of the population in Gardez city is non pashtun, I would not call that "almost no." Jalalabad and Khost city has a non pashtun sizeable population as well.
and you said the following

It was farsiban custome but now its more of Pashtun than any one elses

Farsibans in the north have not abandoned the chadari. They wear them in urban centers as well as villages.
Also how could you say it is more pashtun custome now when the vast majority of pashtun dont wear them. you have 35 million pashtun in pakistan that dont wear them and as you could see the posts by BarackzaiAbdali, Pashtanajan, mostafa, and the harvard report by Palwash Kakar there are a pretty sizable pashtuns in afghanistan that dont wear them as well.

[Khostai]

No one is twisting your words.
I said people in urban settings and in the refugee camps wear them, pashtun and non pashtun.

More than 50% of the population in Gardez city is non pashtun, I would not call that "almost no." Jalalabad and Khost city has a non pashtun sizeable population as well.
and you said the following

Farsibans in the north have not abandoned the chadari. They wear them in urban centers as well as villages.
Also how could you say it is more pashtun custome now when the vast majority of pashtun dont wear them. you have 35 million pashtun in pakistan that dont wear them and as you could see the posts by BarackzaiAbdali, Pashtanajan, mostafa, and the harvard report by Palwash Kakar there are a pretty sizable pashtuns in afghanistan that dont wear them as well.

No Pakis don't count they are not Afghans. I was talking about Pashtun in Afghanistan. You have to visit your home country soon, you forgot how it is there, and an paper of more that 100 years old that Barakzai posted don't represenat Afghan Pashtun today.

I know you try really hard, but the reality is difrent, Pashtun women are not aloud to go outside and if they go they have to wear chadari all the time.

[khushal]

No Pakis don't count they are not Afghans. I was talking about Pashtun in Afghanistan. You have to visit your home country soon, you forgot how it is there, and an paper of more that 100 years old that Barakzai posted don't represenat Afghan Pashtun today.

I know you try really hard, but the reality is difrent, Pashtun women are not aloud to go outside and if they go they have to wear chadari all the time.

see how incompetent you are. Barackzai was talking about the evolution of culture, how fashion changes over time and how diverse pashtuns are from area to area. I dont know how old you are but when your mind reaches up to your physical age, you will understand.