Abortion?

[amna.]

What I desperately need to understand is this:

Just because the mother's gonna be reminded of her painful rape experience, it's acceptable for her to "murder" an innocent baby who did not have a say in whether to be born or not? But it's not okay in other cases? But why? Is one baby more innocent than the other? Why does one baby deserve to live just because he/she is not a product of an excruciating and haunting experience, but the other baby doesn't just because she/he is?

I'm not convinced with the reasoning so far, but I want to be convinced.

Qrratugai is your question directed at me? I can happily answer.

[Iqra]

of course they do. She is taking all that pain all those kicks and you think she won't have feelings?

let me ask you a question how an a woman live without being near her child and knowing this baby is now in existence not because I wanted to but because someone punched me kicked me and raped me.

Why would she punish someone who had no hand in what occurred? Looking at herself and remembering the experience is just as painful, does that mean she should get rid of herself?

[IamDZJ]

why are you guys still talking about this...

[JAMALUDEEN]

A strange world we live in... Criminals (rapists) are kept in jail, while innocent babies are murdered.

[Iqra]

^

[JAMALUDEEN]

Think about what? The pain being inflicted on the babies? It's kind of sad though animals are given more value and rights than human babies these days. You hurt an animal you become a criminal and put behind bars...yet when you kill a baby that's not even born..yet... The outcome is quite the contrary...

[tor_khan]

A strange world we live in... Criminals (rapists) are kept in jail, while innocent babies are murdered.

Not all are in jail. Some of them serve you at the bank and sit next to you on the bus.

Back to point, however. Is abortion murder?

Yes.

[tor_khan]

Notice that I specifically separated rape from the issue. Bring rape into it and the dynamics change. The issue is then about male power.

Most abortions have nothing to do with rape and are to do with convenience.

Is there a difference between war, terrorism, targeted killing, genocide, infanticide, murder, manslaughter etc. Sure - all lead to death.

A bungled midnight robbery/raid that leads to the death of old man when he is accidentally pushed down the stairs suddenly is a lesser crime.

Point is he is dead, the events leading to his death were unpleasant, but our criminal justice system would not punish the perpetrators as hard because there was no intent to kill.

Ariel bombing in Waziristan kills innocents too, but they apparently were not the target because terrorists were.

All, of which, ignores the fact that people in positions of power whether burglars, military, politicians etc., pregnant women kill innocent people.

[Iqra]

Back to point, however. Is abortion murder?

Yes.

I disagree.

The term murder is based on context. If a woman is raped and she aborts re baby in its eary stages, that is not murder. That is wanting life the way it ways PRIOR to the act of insanity.

Kind Marhabas.

Lots of things happen in life that we don't plan on. When an event occurs, you can't just go back to how things were in the past ...otherwise when anything disagreeable occurs, we'd always want to take a step back ...

Most abortions have nothing to do with rape and are to do with convenience.

Unfortunately this is very true as well ... =(

[JAMALUDEEN]

Not all are in jail. Some of them serve you at the bank and sit next to you on the bus.

Back to point, however. Is abortion murder?

Yes.

You are right, but i was speaking in general in accordance to the LAW in the criminal justice system, serious criminals like rapists, murderers, etc., are kept in jail, but the one who are not caught lol you made it pretty clear.

I apologize, i should have written it clear, but i was on the phone.

[Shehbaz Khan]

10 year old girl becomes mother in Spain

MADRID: Spain's press reacted with alarm Wednesday to news that a 10-year-old girl had given birth.

Newspapers expressed shock at the delighted reaction of the mother of the girl, who reportedly moved from Romania to the small southern Spanish town of Lebrija three weeks earlier.

Photographed smiling outside their modest apartment block, the baby's grandmother, identified only as Olimpia, was quoted telling reporters that she and her only daughter were "very happy" after the birth.

The father of the 2.9-kilo (6.4-pound) baby was 13 years old and had remained in Romania, she said, describing him as her daughter's former boyfriend.

The young mother "is very well, very well, like the daughter who is very well and very pretty," Olimpia was quoted as saying.

The 10-year-old, discharged after three days at a hospital in nearby Jerez where she gave birth, "is very happy with her daughter. This is a great joy. It is not a drama," she reportedly said.

Olimpia could not understand the fuss because "this is the age we get married in Romania," said a newspaper, which broke the story.

National daily said the number of births to girls aged under 15 in Spain had climbed to 178 births in 2008 from 80 in 1997.

It also cited 2008 national statistics showing 386 abortions performed on 14-year-old girls. In the same year, there was also one abortion for a 10-year-old girl and one for a nine-year-old girl.

According to the paper, experts disagreed on the physiological risks from giving birth so early.

If the mother had not yet completed her development or was malnourished, she could face serious risks, and her own development could even be interrupted, gynaecologist Manuel Alonso was quoted as saying.

Another expert, Javier Martinez Salmean, head of gynaecology at the Severo Ochoa Hospital in Leganes, central Spain, said everything depended on the girl's development.

"If she has completed her development and the minor has been cared for there is no reason that there should be a complication," he said.

Giving birth at such a young age presented serious psychological and social risks, it said.
"The body of a minor may be ready for a baby but a girl is not ready to be a mother," child psychologist Carolina Fernandez said.

The daily quoted legal sources as saying Spain could not take action if the baby was conceived in Romania, outside of Spanish jurisdiction. If the father was only 13, he would not in any case have criminal responsibility for sexual relations with a minor, it said.

Local authorities are considering whether social services should take responsibility of the girl and her baby, or whether they can remain with their family.

10-year girl becomes mother in Spain - GEO.tv



A slap on the faces of those kuffars who used to ask that how could the Prophet SAW marry Hazrat Ayesha RA when she was so young?

[Tamara]

Thai Police Find 2,000 Illegally Aborted Fetuses

BANGKOK — Two thousand fetuses from illegal abortion clinics have been found hidden at a Buddhist temple here, igniting calls for stricter abortion laws in a nation that is both socially conservative and sexually tolerant.
An undertaker in Bangkok told police officers investigating complaints of an overwhelming stench that the fetuses were supposed to have been cremated, but that he had begun to store them in the mortuary after the temple’s crematorium broke down, according to local news reports.
He said he poured gasoline around them to mask the odor, and finally when the numbers grew too large, he dug a pit to bury them. But neighbors complained, and the stored fetuses were discovered on Tuesday.
The police have arrested two undertakers and a woman who confessed to delivering fetuses to the temple from several clinics. She said she was paid as much as 500 baht, about $16, per delivery and that she paid the undertaker as much as 200 baht to dispose of them. Buddhist cremations are generally performed at temple crematoriums.
The woman also said she had performed illegal abortions and was raising eight children who had survived the procedure, according to local newspaper accounts.
Explaining her adoption of these children, The Nation newspaper quoted her as saying she rescued them after failed abortions because “if the kids won’t die, there’s no need to kill them.”
The case has been a sensation in the local press and has led to calls for stronger laws controlling abortion, which is legal only in cases or rape or incest or if the mother’s life is in danger.
Thailand is a Buddhist country, and many people are generally conservative on sexual matters. Though there is a thriving sex industry here and birth control is widely available, advocates for safe sex say many young people are ill informed on the subject.
On Tuesday, the police said they had discovered 348 fetuses, but the number grew as they continued to search, and on Friday they reported that the total had risen to more than 2,000.
After the discovery, the police raided clinics in the area and told local reporters they had found 20 clinics performing illegal abortions.
Responding to the calls for stronger laws against illegal abortions, Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva said that although the case highlighted the extent of the problem, the current legislation was “flexible enough.”
Under Thai law, a person who performs an illegal abortion can face up to five years in prison and a fine of up to 10,000 baht, or about $333. The penalty increases if the abortion seriously injures the pregnant woman.
The public health minister, Jurin Laksanavisith, said that one million Thai women became pregnant each year, with 60,000 suffering miscarriages and 80,000 having legal abortions. He gave no estimate of the number of illegal abortions.
The Public Health Ministry ordered a nationwide crackdown on clinics that perform illegal abortions after the discovery at the temple.
The woman under arrest, Lanchakorn Janthamanas, 33, was quoted in newspapers as saying that she learned to perform abortions by watching the doctor and the nurse with whom she used to work. Most of her customers were students and teenagers, she said.
She told the police that she earned 5,000 baht for an abortion on a woman up to three months pregnant and 30,000 baht for a woman more than five months into her term, The Bangkok Post reported.
The Nation quoted Ms. Lanchakorn as telling the police that the fetuses were taken secretly to the crematorium and were hidden with other bodies to be cremated.
She said that without knowing it, monks would perform prayers for the fetuses along with prayers for those being cremated.
Investigators said they had questioned the abbot and monks at the temple, Wat Phai Ngerm Chotanaram, and concluded that they were not involved in the case, the newspapers reported.

[Karachi]

There is where i wish sharia law was ruling the world. I am not talking about some fake sharia like (saudi) but real to the book sharia. Islam is the only way of life!

[Hakim Khan Urgonai]

Abortion?

Forgive me if there already is a thread about this, please merge them.

Abortion, I am dead against it.

For starters, don't hump if you are not willing to bear the natural and God-given consequences that precede the act in most cases.
Secondly, if God wants you to have a child, you will have one no matter how much you resist, how many abortions, how many infanticides, you will still end up with a kid.

I am also greatly against condoms, tool of the shaitan to encourage humans to fornicate and more recently, commit sodomy.

Naturally, other Muslims here would agree that abortion is wrong and we have no right to abort a fetus (take a life, in a blunt and cowardly way).

However, we also have some enlightened "Sufi" pirs like Toramana here who's opinion on the matter I would love to know.

I want to know from Pashtun secularists what they think? Do you agree with abortion or do you have atleast some Pashtunwali and see how wrong it is?

Muslim Pashtuns and non-Muslim non-Pashtuns or Muslim non-Pashtuns can all share their opinion.

There is a poll attatched, not that it produces valid results, but because I haven't done so in a long time.

Regards.


EDIT -- there is no poll. I keep forgetting to add it at the end.

[Tor Gul]

generally against, but torn on specific issues like rape & if carrying to term WILL kill the mother.