Abortion?

[Khushal Khan Khattak]

What is this world coming to??

================================================== ===

Indian woman delivers,
abandons baby in plane toilet

================================================== ===




New Delhi, India (CNN) -- An unmarried Indian woman delivered a baby in the toilet of an international flight and abandoned the infant in the plane's washroom, police and doctors said Thursday.


Cabin crew of the Turkmenistan Airlines rushed the newborn to a hospital as the plane arrived in the northern Indian city of Amritsar on Wednesday, said Varinder Kumar, city police commissioner.


The toilet was taken to the hospital with the baby, and surgeons had to cut it away to get the newborn out, said H.P. Singh, a doctor at Amritsar's Fortis Escorts hospital.


The baby's condition was critical, Singh said, and it might take at least two to three days to recover. The mother admitted to the same hospital was, however, stable, he said.


"She was unmarried. It looks like she wanted to get rid of the baby," Singh said.


Police confirmed she was single and plan to question her once she was declared medically fit.


Abandoning newborns is an offense punishable up to seven years in jail, Kumar said.


"We will see what action can be taken (against her) after the interrogation," he said.


The mother, believed to be age 25, belongs to Punjab's Hoshiarpur district, according to police. Her flight had originated from Ashgabat in Turkmenistan, Kumar said.


In largely-conservative India, pre-marital sex remains a taboo.
Last year, India's federal woman rights watchdog ordered an investigation into reports young would-be-brides were subject to "virginity tests" for a mass wedding.


The alleged tests in June last year happened in Madhya Pradesh state controlled by conservative Hindu nationalists who are members of the opposition Bharatiya Janata Party.


But a district magistrate said they were simply "clinical examinations" initiated after one of the brides gave birth at a previous similar event.
Earlier this year, India's top court ruled live-in relationships between adult couples are not a crime.


The supreme court also quashed more than 20 cases against a south Indian actress for her comments on pre-marital sex in 2005, which had sparked angry protests.


Actress Khushboo, who uses one name, said her remarks aimed to highlight precautions that partners should take in order to prevent AIDS.
More than half of India's billion-plus population is below age 25, officials say.


With rapid modernization and a growing economy, the country's young work force has grown over the past few years.
But marriages remain a venerated custom in India.

================================================== ===

Indian woman delivers, abandons baby in plane toilet - CNN.com

================================================== ===

[Khushal Khan Khattak]

That is insane.

Maybe, its an inidcation of the rapid change in the social structure in India.

It is not about poverty, even though there is alot of it in India, but this shows the westernization of their society along with rapid development. The old eastern values are holding but every now and then there are anomalies like this that fracture everything.

[*Mahzala*]

... Sickening ... selfish ... and inhumane ...

[IamDZJ]

i can't believe some women. where is the man in this story? how many women do you have to see end up in a situation like this before you learn to respect yourself? the value of a newborn child is the toilet..

[*Mahzala*]

Selfish because temporary pleasure has consequences that they fail to weigh out when they give more value and worth to desires at the expense of morals and values - or even being human at that. Inhumane it is.

[AnGaaR]

she thought the plane is going to America thats y she delivered da baby lol..
they will kill themselves for america.. Now her infant would be American.. or wait a min.. Air born baby gets Sky nationality right?

[Roshina]

SO cruel! SO unfair to the baby! (I know, I know, the girl must have had her reasons, and we all know no mother would ever do something like this just because.)

I've never understood "unwanted pregnancy." If you MUST do it and you live in a society where you know what the consequences of your actions will be, use protection, for society's sake! And if the protection fails, then have an abortion in the earliest stages -- it's better than abandoning a born child!

Ugh, this is just ruining my night.

[tor_khan]

I've never understood "unwanted pregnancy." If you MUST do it and you live in a society where you know what the consequences of your actions will be, use protection, for society's sake!

I'm a man, so I have a bias, but from my understanding unwanted = embarassment or inconvenience. Embarassment if society frowns upon it, inconvenience if it gets in the way of your hedonistic lifestyle.

For those who think it's inconvenient, then Allah help them. For those who are embarassed, then they should think deeply about the choices before they make them.

And if the protection fails, then have an abortion in the earliest stages -- it's better than abandoning a born child!

Ugh, this is just ruining my night.

What is the difference between killing a child one month before the end of gestation and one month after?

One month before it is called an abortion; one month after it is infanticide. Either way we are talking of a fully formed human who has the potential to grow, lead, inspire and change. That will never happen if you kill the child at any stage in life's process.

Everyone one of us here could've been abandoned or aborted - consider ourselves extremely fortunate.

I've pretty much made my feelings about this known through my words.

Again, I apologise, if this is not my territory.

[Roshina]

Now, one thing about the title strikes me as ... unfair. You see, there's clear focus on the woman's nationality - Indian. Why?

We never like to read "afghan Man/Woman does X" (X being something bad) or "Muslim Woman/Man Does Y" (Y being something bad), but why is it okay to have "Indian" in the title of a, well, an Indian? Imagine if that had said, "Muslim woman delivers, abandons baby in plane toilet"! My God, it'd be a disaster. Or if it'd said "Pakistani woman delivers, abandons baby in plane toilet."

Yeah, let's not imagine that race, culture, religion, etc. has to do with these things. This can, and it has, happened to ANY woman, regardless of her religion or race.

[tor_khan]

If we take humanity and compassion out of anything then killing babies is just one part of it. We are ready to support indiscriminate warfare, ethnic cleansing etc. because governments and politicians have given these things the green light.

The real truth about abortion is that it doesn't in fact support women or go in their favour. There are upto 60 million "missing females" in India and China. Why? Because abortion has been used in gender selection.

Abortion has not liberated anyone, rather it has led to women killing women.

[Roshina]

^ I'm aware of both the positives and negatives of abortion, and I'm not one of those who think that abortion = women's rights. It's women's rights ONLY if the woman herself is willing to do it. If she's doing it out of compulsion, it's not really in favor of her rights, then. I've friends (both married and unmarried, Muslim and non-Muslim) who have aborted children, and the only ones who regret it are those who did it because ... well, the child was out of wedlock and they didn't want anyone to know, because of rape, or for other reasons they felt they MUST abort the baby. There are a couple who don't regret it, and their reasons I mustn't say.

But comparing abortion to mass-killing and what not ... well, that reminds me of how Christian extremists stand by abortion clinics with signs that read "ABORTION IS MURDER!" and other such statements.

But abortion should be the choice of a couple. If they don't wanna abort their baby, why should they? If they want to do it and they have reasons, so be it. It's when the fetus has well-developed that I personally become unsupportive of abortion. However, I realize that every woman has her own story, and every situation is unique. God forbid I'm ever in a place where I want to abort a child (I personally couldn't do it myself ever; but it's when others do it by choice that I don't mind). I'm just not supportive of the people who go around condemning women who choose to abort their babies, as if that mother was selfish and all and just wanted to "enjoy" life and get rid of her babies. We need to try to understand people's situation before making conclusions about them.

It's prolly just safest to say, "I'd never do it myself."

[Gaia]

First, I’ll apologize for I simply don’t know how to use all the buttons and quotes and faces and whatever in the table of options the forum gives us. That said, I’m more concerned about what I’m saying than its presentation.

So, here it goes... with all due respect.

First, I’m just trying to understand how is it that blaming Ocident/West for all the evil in the world – mostly, in Eastern world – has helped some of you guys to get out of your problems. (Just making sure, I’m not generalizing, I was careful to say “some of you”)

One reads a whole report on how an Indian woman had a baby on a plane and abandoned it in the toillet and first thing that comes to mind is “great, some more sh*t ocident has tainted us with”. I suggest: keep on reading. For those who are too lazy or too busy blaming ocident for everything – from unwanted/unexpected public fart to the Armagedon – here are few highlights:

"She was unmarried. It looks like she wanted to get rid of the baby," Singh said." (doesn’t seem much like a sign of western behavior – as people seem to think West is that ol’so liberal hell. And, to be clear, I’m not saying it doesn’t happen in ocident. Ah, and yeah... of course someone will point the part in which she had sex without being married is the sign of ocident... News Flash: it’s not something that’s only happened in the last few years, it comes from long, long time ago... neither it’s something that only happens in ocident and was taken to the East in some ship as some sort of virus. It happens since this little/lovely/pretty animal that is the human being came to be engaged in the other little/lovely/pretty thing called society.)

“The mother, believed to be age 25, belongs to Punjab's Hoshiarpur district, according to police. Her flight had originated from Ashgabat in Turkmenistan, Kumar said.” (none of the places mentioned in this sentence seem to me like anything close to western cities... just saying. And last time I checked, Kumar was not a very common ocidental name. Again, just saying. But, of course, we need someone to blame. Let’s just forget the whole report, stick to the information we previously had set in our records and.... GREAT: Lets blame it on the West. Again... has it worked so far?)

“In largely-conservative India, pre-marital sex remains a taboo.” (does any of this sentence really need to be commented? If you will, I’ll be willing to. But, thought of saving your time.)

“Last year, India's federal woman rights watchdog ordered an investigation into reports young would-be-brides were subject to "virginity tests" for a mass wedding.” (again... conservative much? Look where it ended: pregnant woman in fear and shame; hidden birth; baby in toillet)

I’m not defending liberal or attacking conservative societies, just asking to, please, take the burden of your own responsibilities and stop throwing the blame to everything of wrong to the person in the next seat. Your conservative society is any better than my liberal one; neither is my liberal society any better than your conservative one. They’re different; each with their goods and evils. I don’t blame you for my problems. Please, refrain for doing this, else, I’ll just think you’re incapable of function due to your complete lack of responsability over your own acts. And, just in case... don’t even think of start judging me for just being part of this society. And think you can fit me into some pre-determined scheme. Don’t make it seem so simple something millions have been trying for centuries to even start explain: individual and societal behavior).

It could be about poverty; it could be about morals; it could be about fear; it could be about psychological issues; it could be about society judgment; it could be about legal implications; it could be about religious condemnation; it could be about plain unwillingness to have a child; it could be about laziness; it could be about lust; it could be about whatever you’ll name..... don’t just resume someone else’s situation to your own understandings. That’s not only unfair; that’s cruel.

Now, too good some acknowledge the fact they have their own bias before starting to comment. Louvable even. That’s more than a lot of us will do.

So, Tor, having in mind “unwanted = embarassment or inconvenience” is your understanding, as you well put, I would like to add some to your definition there, if you don’t mind. It might be an incovenience for a lot more reasons than just getting in the way of their hedonistic life style. Unwanted pregnancy fits a lot more situations than a simple “hedonistic life style”. But, since our own understandings and experiences tend to blind us to other many possibilities, it’s understandable why only the hedonistic life style comes to our minds at first. Girls who get pregnant by the age of 12 for being raped by their own parents; mental disabled girls who get pregnant because of some sick man’s mind; drugged up girls, unwillingly used to the pleasure of some guy... I can go on and on to present a lot more than just the protection of a hedonistic life style as reasons for why some women would opt for an abortion. So, lets just, please, not throw these girls in some even hotter hell than that they’ve already been thrown at. Ah, just in case, I’m aware there are women who’ll opt for a abortion just to protect their “hedonistic life style”.... it’s just quite unfair and unintelligent to prohibit even the discussion of this issue because of such attitude. By the way... the “hedonistic life style” is in quotes because I don’t even want to get into the discussion of why men are allowed to protect theirs while, when related to a woman, that’ll be such a hellish idea.*

I just wonder why the embarassment wasn’t much discussed. This embarassment didn’t raise up in these women’s minds just because, God knows... they ate an apple. Maybe a society who checks on girls to see whether they’re still virgin or not, hence being good or not to get married, would have its share of fault. Or not? Maybe, a society in which men are allowed to sneak in the middle of the night and pleasure themselves with some pay-to-use woman, and never get themselves checked for virginity to see if they are themselves good and clean enough to get married to those same girls they made sure were never ‘used’ before, has its own share of fault. Could it be? Maybe, just maybe, a society in which women are not allowed to even discuss their possibilities when faced with a pregnancy for whatever reason – hedonistic life style, date rape, common rape, or plain stupidity and lack of information or will to use a preservative – also could have its share of fault. Ring a bell? Just asking.

Abortions are not made after the 4th. month, for the ones who were not sure about that.... after that, many constitutions who assure this right to their women consider it to be a murderer. So... not one month before and one month later.... there’s more to the discussion than the fast jokes and simplifications we pull some times.

I also like how we are, some times, so positive; but, just to add some more complexity to an already not so easy subject: we’re talking of a fully formed human who has the potential to grow, lead, inspire, change, kill, kidnap, conduct genocides, rage wars..... a baby born of a rape, for example, could not have the much love from a mother or a family that would make sure his best qualities would raise. God knows, even children brought up full of love and cares are up to the dark side. So.... please, lets just not use futurology to resume an issue that belongs so much to the present time of many.

Abortion doesn’t support women. Forbiding abortion neither.

People denying women the right to decide their own futures and chose their own paths have certainly made a great deal against women. Hundreds of women die in illegal abortion clinics which don’t offer them proper care because their governments forbade their right to chose between continuing the pregnancy or not. Hundreds of women commit suicide when faced with an unwanted pregnancy because they don’t even have the arguments to defend their actions of having sex or not, or having the baby or not.

Abortion is definitelly not a women’s issue primarilly. But it’s a women’s issue ultimatelly. I have a friend who puts it very well: no vagina, no say. My body, my call. God knows I’ll have to deal with a lot of thinking and condemnation myself. I don’t need someone pointing the finger and telling me I have to have a child I simply don’t want to have because, in his own understanding, it’s just me trying to protect my hedonistic life style. And God knows I have the right not to even feel like I need to sit there and try to make people understand why I’m making this call. Each head its sentence.

“Abortion has not liberated anyone”. Not even talk about abortion either.

Anyway.... throw a baby in the toillet is not right in East or West. And as much as it pleases me to use the adjective “inhuman” to express my total increculity to someone’s capacity to do such, I won’t do it here. What that woman did was the act of a human being, most likely desperate for the consequences she would have to face when presented to this also very human institution: society, one that is capable of the worst atrocities. And many of us know... chances are she wouldn’t even have the right or chance to defend herself. Survival, my friends, that’s the first and strongest of the human instincts. Keep that in mind.


*(Yeah, I can feel the heat of hell coming up my legs already, before anyone wants to throw me there, I’d like to acknowledge, I already made sure to save myself a nice seat. Right side. It gives me a better view.)

[Gaia]

Gaia, very well said but the issue on hand is the morality of it. Its the moral issue, what she did was very immoral and many are criticizing her intention, not her ethnicity. Its sad and disappointing when people try to justify such an action.

I didn't criticize her etnicity. Nor her nationality. I didn't say it was moral. And in no moment I got close to attempt a justification. I just reafrained myself also from condemn her. As a mere person, I refused to judge her action.

If you read the whole thread, you'll see the blame put in ocident... if you knew me, you'd know I hardly waste time taking someone's side unless it's a friend under treat. And I only know two Indians... male. Just letting you know

[Gaia]

I was not talking about you when I mentioned justifying, I was generally speaking sister jaan, what I am trying to say that she did the wrong thing.

Do you agree Gaia?

Hmmm... I'm not pregnant; I'm lying in my warm bed watching some bad TV and laughing out loud cause the guy is cursing; I just had the best dinner and a financier for dessert; my family is sleeping safe and sound; I can pay my bills and waste some; I think tomorrow I can go to the movies to watch A Team, depending on whether I feel like after I wake up at 2pm......

My dearest Aseer, that would be too easy for me to say. Get me?

[Master Khan]

that is why sex before marriage is wrong, if you don't want a baby then don't have sex, end of story.