Jeans debate thread

[Wardagi]

^I have some bones to pick with you.

Before we begin, So your stance and according to you is skinny jeans are perfectly modest and fine?


And you are Muslim?

answer and we will continue.


or you can create a new thread ' Is skinny jeans modest' and we can keep it clean in there.


I usually post around this time, I was mainly a guest and this is my first time on a 'Pashtun forums'.



but before we begin, nice to meetcha.


I shall be waiting upon your response of approval or denial of the debate.

[Laila]

Let them wear what ever they want.
When I see a girl in Salwaar Kameez and scaf, I think to myself "her family is respectful and good", But in Tight jeans and T-Shirt..no.

Okay, so according to what you just said, my family is not respected and not good people due to me wearing jeans and shirt, right? And if i wore shalwar kameez, and look very attractive for men to look at and admire, then i am a modest women coming from the most respected family?

And if you are going to say that is not what you meant, then it is a harsh and very quick judgemental assumption to say.


btw, I dont mean to call you out wror, but i want you to understand what you said.

[Master Khan]

Okay, this thread started off as 'posting your favorite jeans' then it went into modesty, from my knowledge. So basically this thread has gotten twisted, and i apologize to the person who started it, Jinkay, sorry dear. But i did need to submit one last post to make a point.

So about any further debate, so take it to "Ladies or Guys" thread, since it seems more appropriate there.

For the sake of this thread, tomorrow i will post some pics of new jeans

I think I miss use the the word "Attractive", I mean to said like Respectful, you look more respectful in Salwar kameez then tight jeans.
I don't really look at girls when I walk from collage etc, I just put my Mp3 player on and just walk stright to my house, But some if my cousins wear tight jeans and they look like as if they are coming from a club...its just my opinion and sorry If I upset anyone.

[tor_khan]

The new batch of girlie shalwar kameezes branded about are meant to reveal skin. I don't stand in judgement (well, actually I do) but each to his own.

At a panagir function last summer, I saw a grey haired woman in a sleeveless blouse with rolls of tummy fat hanging out over her saree skirt and then five minutes later I saw another grey haired woman in "shalwar kameez". Actually it would better be described as "shorts kameez minus dupatta" because the shalwar just stopped below her knee and the lupatta was not "accessorized" in.

My guess is neither of them were Pashtoon, so perhaps there's not much else to say about it.

Meanwhile some of the girls at this function had their pajama kurtas sewn onto them leaving no breathing space between skin and material.

And as for the desi stuff out there for men, sherwanis, kurtas etc. Forget it. I prefer my spinee jamay on Fridays and if it makes me look like an amateur talib then so be it. I'm Pashtoon and you'll never get me to wear yellow and lilac "designer" kurtas. Leave that to the disco Khans in Bollywood and their devoted army of trepan-head followers.

[tor_khan]

tor khan if a girl pashtana is wearing tight jeans what do you think of her? Be frank.

Am I being tested? Rhetorical question. I am being tested.

OK, for the record ... my wife wears jeans (outside of work and during the weekends) and casuals/skirts to work. In her previous job she was expected to wear a uniform business suit. She mostly wore trousers or dark tights with her skirts and avoided anything too short. In a North American/European summer she prefers long flowy dress type attire.

The trouble is I'm male and I can't win in ANY debate about acceptable standards of female dress, hence I will not please everyone with this response.

Amongst Pashtoons some will question things like ghairat - how could I let my wife dress to please "herself"? Actually, it's not that simple. Social and work pressures play a part in what we wear. My wife is very fair and passes for European in "western" dress. The number of times she's caught people by surprise. The Arabs think she's Lebanese or something, but frankly, I'm not into cake layers of make up (but nor do I think facial moustaches on women are nice). See, I'm in trouble already, because either way, it is my (male) opinion that is being discussed here.

One of my dearest, dearest friends is a small-time talib - schooled in the madrassah system and outwardly a very conservative Muslim. I see him just about every day and quite honestly he's someone I trust completely. I call him Moulvi Saab, after all talib chi wo! He sees the good in everything that people do - he recognises that nothing is perfect - and says that my wife's gentle "obedience" is a strength to her Islamic character. He says that my "generosity" is a strength to mine. He's an incredibly inspiring Muslim and doesn't split hairs over small things. His wife is fully burkahed and I've never met her; that's his affair, but I don't feel awkward when he sees my wife driving back from work because he simply looks the other way. He greets were with a simple Salaam and a downwards glance and then goes about his work. In the evening we share tea and jokes in our "hujra" in our apartment block and are very comfortable to share the same space.

My wife and I have spoken at length about hijab. Jeans or traditional wear are not the issue here. None of her clothes are really a tight fit, but because we live in an area where there are many other Pashtoons (mostly labourers and men on bachelor status) we need to be careful.

I don't spit on men stealing glances when they are in that situation because that is the nature of the beast. What it means for my wife is the deeper choice that she makes. Society plays its part here too.

Incidentally, she is a very observant Muslim - I wouldn't want it any less - and is the one to wake me from my afternoon slumber so that I don't miss mazigar munz. Lots of people are surprised to see that she will wear a headscarf beautifully around the house and her preferred homewear tends to be kameez partugs - nothing fancy.

Neither of us were particularly happy when the Taliban took control of Swat, but we were prepared for her to do the burkah thing if needed. She wears a chador and covers her face incredibly well, blending perfectly into our shared Pashtoon culture and wears a full abaya and sheila when going with to pray Jum'ah.

See, there is balance, I guess.

[*Mahzala*]

Am I being tested? Rhetorical question. I am being tested.

OK, for the record ... my wife wears jeans (outside of work and during the weekends) and casuals/skirts to work. In her previous job she was expected to wear a uniform business suit. She mostly wore trousers or dark tights with her skirts and avoided anything too short. In a North American/European summer she prefers long flowy dress type attire.

The trouble is I'm male and I can't win in ANY debate about acceptable standards of female dress, hence I will not please everyone with this response.

Amongst Pashtoons some will question things like ghairat - how could I let my wife dress to please "herself"? Actually, it's not that simple. Social and work pressures play a part in what we wear. My wife is very fair and passes for European in "western" dress. The number of times she's caught people by surprise. The Arabs think she's Lebanese or something, but frankly, I'm not into cake layers of make up (but nor do I think facial moustaches on women are nice). See, I'm in trouble already, because either way, it is my (male) opinion that is being discussed here.

One of my dearest, dearest friends is a small-time talib - schooled in the madrassah system and outwardly a very conservative Muslim. I see him just about every day and quite honestly he's someone I trust completely. I call him Moulvi Saab, after all talib chi wo! He sees the good in everything that people do - he recognises that nothing is perfect - and says that my wife's gentle "obedience" is a strength to her Islamic character. He says that my "generosity" is a strength to mine. He's an incredibly inspiring Muslim and doesn't split hairs over small things. His wife is fully burkahed and I've never met her; that's his affair, but I don't feel awkward when he sees my wife driving back from work because he simply looks the other way. He greets were with a simple Salaam and a downwards glance and then goes about his work. In the evening we share tea and jokes in our "hujra" in our apartment block and are very comfortable to share the same space.

My wife and I have spoken at length about hijab. Jeans or traditional wear are not the issue here. None of her clothes are really a tight fit, but because we live in an area where there are many other Pashtoons (mostly labourers and men on bachelor status) we need to be careful.

I don't spit on men stealing glances when they are in that situation because that is the nature of the beast. What it means for my wife is the deeper choice that she makes. Society plays its part here too.

Incidentally, she is a very observant Muslim - I wouldn't want it any less - and is the one to wake me from my afternoon slumber so that I don't miss mazigar munz. Lots of people are surprised to see that she will wear a headscarf beautifully around the house and her preferred homewear tends to be kameez partugs - nothing fancy.

Neither of us were particularly happy when the Taliban took control of Swat, but we were prepared for her to do the burkah thing if needed. She wears a chador and covers her face incredibly well, blending perfectly into our shared Pashtoon culture and wears a full abaya and sheila when going with to pray Jum'ah.

See, there is balance, I guess.

A man can say all that about his wife, in those words, in that length - unbelievable. Sure says something Tor_Khan Brother. De wrandar deedan bayad woku, che khpel zrhuna tasal ku. Kha, Perth ta kela tashreef ra akhli InshaAllah? Khwahish koma che mung kara bya yawa pyala chai wochkey, der ne, yawa pyala bas. Ho, au (zema de laas) yaw Qabili Palau ba zaroor pe tase wokhwarom. Au leg der nor shayuna. Tse wayey peke?

[IamDZJ]

there is this one pashtoon family that i know. the first time i met the mother she was wearing half pants and mashala she looks very well fed. i used to think of her daughters until i met her.how can one expect anything better from the children if the parent is like that.. next time i saw her she was wearing a 3 meter scarf. at least she felt ashamed unlike her good for nothing daughters.
i wonder if they feel anything different standing there next to their fathers dressed like that.
if you think you can decide for yourself how you want to dress then dont use the word pashtoon to describe your self. it comes with a responsibility and the rest of us dont want to pay for ....that you do.

[tor_khan]

A man can say all that about his wife, in those words, in that length - unbelievable. Sure says something Tor_Khan Brother. De wrandar deedan bayad woku, che khpel zrhuna tasal ku. Kha, Perth ta kela tashreef ra akhli InshaAllah? Khwahish koma che mung kara bya yawa pyala chai wochkey, der ne, yawa pyala bas. Ho, au (zema de laas) yaw Qabili Palau ba zaroor pe tase wokhwarom. Au leg der nor shayuna. Tse wayey peke?

Dera dera manana. Da Perth programme la tayar na de, kho ka charta khabara pakha shwa, no InshAllah, khabar ba de kam.

Da Palau shawkeen yam ... Der pa mina khuram.

Au bya da chai khabara ... waya ma ...

[tor_khan]

Islamically speaking, Do you think your wife is in compliance with Islamic standards by wearing a skirt?

Am I under the microscope again?? I thought I answered this in a question you posed earlier. I don't think it's fair, mind, for you to now probe my Islamic standards.

Why would I worry about jeans and dresses on someone when the Pashtoon nation is under a massive human, political, social and cultural assault in the homeland and those in the diaspora are being Anglicised more than they care to admit? We really have other things to worry about and prioritise.

I have met many "armchair jihadis" who don't understand that even in the Muslim world there is a variety of acceptance and real debate about what is/isn't okay.

[tor_khan]

I think you are getting a tad bit emotional here. It was just a question, I did not criticize yours or hers moral.

No not emotional, just slightly bothered at having to explain myself all over again.

Because wearing jeans that expose the body figure is against our religion? I mean excuse me, but I am not aware of this Muslim 2.0 where wearing a skirt is considered ok. I come from a traditional Pashtun society so your embracing skirts and jeans is quite alien to pashtuns.

I come from the same conservative Pashtoon society. I'm not advocating anything, trust me. It's not my prerogative to do so. I think women will make their own choices.

I'm also one of the strongest defenders of the right for women to fully veil. Read here. Like I say, the fact that I'm male will make whatever opinion I have, wrong in some people's minds. That's not being emotional, it's the unfortunate reality because other people have such strong opinions on this.

All I am asking is a simple question, Is the intolerance because I am a "Newbie"?

I understand that people have questions, but the best way to get to understand where a person is coming from is to follow their posts and slowly draw an opinion.

[tor_khan]

Well in my eyes and opinion, your post was vague and it seemed us though there was a fallacy in it since you were running in circle.

Yes it is not ok.
But my wife does it.
no people need to not ask me cause pashtunkhwa has a ton of problems.



I think we women like to have our men correct when we think we are right.


If a women is not in compliance, its islamically your job to spread the truth to her.

I will read it just now.


If someone considers themselves to fall under the umbrella of Islam, they must follow Islamic principles.

You cant say "I am a Muslim, but I think wearing booty shorts is modest and praying is unnecessary"(an example)

Well, Excuse me I guess, I just registered here . I found the website through google since it is the 1 website in search results to words like pashtun website, community, forums, I decided to register when I saw some intelligent users.

Ouch!! Slow down the attack ... I'm obviously a public disgrace of a bad Muslim full of vague and vacant and offensive ideas ...

... You'll just have to give up on me ...

... Next ...

[Roshina]

Oh, my!

Tor Khan, sorry to see how your point got so twisted and misunderstood! I agree with you -- we have SO many more things to worry about than whether a woman should wear "skinny jeans" or not. Like, seriously? Could we NOT worry about anything more serious?

No, I don't think it's okay to ignore certain "problems" (however we might define problems) and to focus on others, but, really, we're having a "scholarly" debate over whether jeans are okay in Islam?

I believe in choice. If a woman wears skinny jeans and does other things that *you folks* consider "Islamic" (whatever you believe that means), big deal. At least no one's gonna imprison her if she doesn't wear jeans, or chooses to wear something else.

And we're discussing the idea of Islamic? Why, I always find this so utterly amusing. *Islam* never says a woman can't wear jeans. When something's not specifically defined WITHIN Islam, and we have to depend on our "scholars" (whoever we allow them to be; whom I consider a scholar may not be one in your mind, and vice versa), we're not really being any more "Islamic" than the person who doesn't accept these "scholars'" opinions. What I mean is, you get to have *people* tell you what's right and wrong, because these *people/humans* are defining God's law for you and for the entire (Muslim) world and for themselves. (Note: Maududi's wife didn't wear hijab, and yet, he went around talking about how Western women are oppressed because, according to him and your typical Muslim and Maududi's other followers, 'these women are submitting to the wishes of MEN, not of God's!' And, yet, we don't seem to realize that God's guidelines are *not* specific; they are nothing without their interpretation -- which are done by, surprise surprise, HUMANS.)

Anyway, so if you wanna know whether jeans are Islamic or not, the answer will depend on who is giving it; the consequences of the fatwa will depend on who's issuing it. It doesn't matter if I say it's okay or not, it doesn't matter if it's okay to you or not, it doesn't matter if it's okay to other people or not.

And if wearing jeans is un-Islamic, there are TRILLIONS of other things that are *equally* un-Islamic. What if a Muslim woman who wears tight/skinny jeans (or short shirts, for that matter) finds it far more important to feed the hungry than to cover her body?

And what about those Muslim women who cover their faces, or just their whole bodies except faces, but have the filthiest, most despicable hearts and minds ever?

I'd much rather be that woman who shows her arms/legs than to be the one who covers her and is far more hypocritical than any other human that could ever live -- by lying, cheating, harming people, being arrogant, etc., etc. (Note: I said "I'd much rather be ..."; I did *not* say I AM that type. But if I were, I wouldn't be able to care less what the Muslim girl/woman with a filthy heart thought about my dressing style.)

Besides, when we say that women who don't dress the way we believe they should be are being *un-Islamic* and their daughters are "good-for-nothings" (yikes!) JUST because they don't wear what we think they should be wearing (wow!), are we claiming that we're any better than they are? And how dare we make that judgment when we don't know what lies in their hearts and minds? For all you know, that person is FAR more pious than you'll ever be -- EVEN though you might be *trying* so desperately to show off your "piety" by wearing a hijab or a niqab, even, and the other woman isn't.

And why're they "good-for-nothing"? Geeez. As if you're any better, what with all you passing judgments and (obviously) doing nothing better than THAT.

Anyways ... my point: It should be up to the woman to decide. If she wants to show her legs, you can only share your beliefs/opinions with her regarding that; you don't have the power to do any more than that 'cause the ultimate decision lies in *her* hand, not in yours. If she wants to wear the niqab, great for her; it doesn't work for ALL women, just as wearing shorts and/or skinny jeans doesn't work for ALL women, Muslim or not.

[IamDZJ]

According to you,
being a Pashtun means you must be covered?


If someone is wearing tight jeans, has a clean heart, honest, very kindhearted, they have no right to be called a pashtun?



that doesnt make much sense to me, I am a pashtun and I dont have to necessarily do what you just said.

that's your opinion and this is mine. live by yours and i will live with mine. i don't have any reasons to lie. pashto as i know is not defined by tight jeans. may be the one you know is.
when a dust storm comes, all the windows should be shut so the dust doesn't get inside the clean room and if it's left open through the dust storm then it's no longer a clean room.

[IamDZJ]

^You are creating your own version of Pashtunwali, calm down.

I disagree with your statement, if you can back up what your saying feel free, if you cant leave it at that.

so? my version is my version. when did i claim it otherwise?
i thought you wanted to be left alone so you could enjoy the forums. whatever happened to that idea?

[Roshina]

Hi Qrratugai, Nice to meet you

Same here, khorey! Nice to meet you as well!

Skinny jeans with your booty showing is Haram. No questions asked or said, I am amused at your attempt at trying to justify your reasoning by using the consequences fallacy.

Oh, trust me - I wouldn't need your opinion on my clothing at ALL, and I woudln't wanna "defend" or "justify" myself at ALL to you or to anyone else So, no, I wasn't trying to "justify" my reasoning, lol. Meaning, if I wanted to wear skinny jeans, your intimidation that it's a "big sin" and "haraam" and "you can't wear skinny jeans" and "it's defeating the purpose of modesty in Islam" wouldn't prevent me from wearing them. Sorry, but you gotta be more convincing than this.

You can not wear jeans.

If you wear jeans, you are committing a big sin.

LOL @ Big sin... wow. Gunah-e- kabeera, as they call it in Arabic. No?

In simple words, you are trying to make your argument look nice, but in reality it isnt.

Maybe I wasn't trying to do that at all, khorey. But even if I were, I should remind you that I don't "try" to do anything; I just do it.

The thread is about jeans, no body here asked you to tell us how other ladies are horrible.

I didn't say "other ladies" are horrible. But if I wanted to, kana, I woudln't need anyone's permission to allow me to say that As in, I'd say it whether anybody asked me to or not.

Anyone who is wearing skinny jeans, is defeating the purpose of Islamic modesty.

This is your opinion, just like it is your opinion (or, no, the opinion of your teachers and others who have made you believe this) that "wearing jeans is a BIG SIN and it's haraam and you cannot wear jeans." And I perfectly understand that.