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[IamDZJ]

i am sure tor khan is capable of defending himself.

[Admin Khan]

But, Subhan allah. Our very own Pashtun nationalist moderator of Pashtunforums visits the brothels asif the brothels in Amsterdam are the only thing that is there.

You made a silly and ridiculous claim, where is your proof? Isn't lying against Islam? Isn't false-accusations against Islam? Are you perhaps some super creature who has the right to accuse people of nonsense?

But I guess the nationalist tendencies of yours got the best of you.

What tendencies? Stop being shy and speak up. Based on what are you arguing your nonsense? Where in the world did he even give a slight example that he was in a brothel? Sta churt oh pikar cherey dey? When someone attacks you, you get mad and make a scene but if you attack our very own Tor Khan, its okay? Why double standards? Death to hypocrisy!

And dont worry, you wont find my in the red light district. You might bump into some of your fellow Pashtun Nationalists who are children of Khalqi and Parchami Communist Generals. They are known for their escapades in the sex industry.

Stop dragging nationalism in every topic. This topic has nothing to do with nationalists or nationalism. I hope your next post doesn't revolve around Sufism.

One of them is even married to a Turkish prostitute.

We Pashtuns don't bring out peoples personal information out in public. Sharam oh haya jhy cherta jhey?

[Fahd]

what happen ??
i relly want to know what happen btw sangar and tor khan

who is sufi ? sangar sufi ? or admin khan sufi ?
im still confuse :P
LOL

[*Mahzala*]

While I am able to see where and who has made the error in this thread, I won’t make any mention of it, rather, without considering myself worthy enough to say this, remind this group as a whole that what has taken place neither has place in the realm of our religion, nor culture and defies the basic notion of insaaniyat, the relationship that brings us together despite our differences.

I often wonder, and I like to think a discussion on this essential, whether the way in which we express ourselves on this forum (my only point of contact with many) is a clear, or partly, reflection of your (real) ways in your personal and (real) day to day lives. If so, and may I be so bold to say, but we need to mend some of our ways. Judgements, accusations, ill manners are none of the things emphasised by Islam or our culture. In fact, as is clarified in Ahadeeth that one who doesn’t show respect to elders and kindness to youngers is not considered among the Ummah. And I needn’t go into where our pride lies, in our culture, which boasts the words mashraan, ihteraam and dranakht in every situation. If such are the teachings, I wonder at the pride, if I may say, of those who exercise such behaviour on one side, yet portray themselves saturated of the Islamic knowledge. If anything, that knowledge should humble us, should only bring us closer to understanding the innocence and weakness of man, and not that we sit on cloud nine and look down upon everyone.

Take a look down your collar before attempting to tear someone else’s for it may reveal ill intentions or a dark past. We all have our shortcomings and phases of disobedience, yet we shouldn’t forget them, and if today we stand guided, than it is not a goodness of your own, that too is a blessing from Allah. Of Allah’s signs of His love for His Creation, there are many, and among them, one is mankind having love and respect for him. Are we trying to achieve this or are we throwing it away? Always remember, the successful are those who are open to change, to mend their ways. The truth often hurts, but if taken into consideration, the fruits of its effects are sweet. Remember, we are nothing but human, weak, sinful, yet proud.

I am disappointed and disgusted. May Allah forgive us all.

[Haider Bangash 2.0]

what happen ??
i relly want to know what happen btw sangar and tor khan

who is sufi ? sangar sufi ? or admin khan sufi ?
im still confuse :P
LOL

LOL Sangar sufi here. Bigest sufi sangar is known inside about sufitop but not expressed it his love for it. Maybe your heart a sufi too, but shyed admitting it.


LOL

[Catya Sher]

I don't wish to contradict respected Admin and moderators.

However, I want to present a completely different side of viewing a situation such as this or any squabble that breaks out between a Salafi side and a secularist or pro-nationalistic type.

I have traveled to well over 50 countries. Most of them were majority Muslim countries. I always talked to everyone to find out their perspectives on religion, my favorite subject, or politics, my other favorite.

I survived many attacks by Soviet helicopter gunships, losing my passport in Iran under Ayatollah Khomeini with no American embassy to issue a new one, and many many adventures.

Then I got to a country where the population was originally Muslim but secularized and under the Soviet shadow. To sum up quickly, not a person in that heavily intimidated society lifted a hand to help me when I was in distress from the notoriously evil functionaries of the dictatorial system there.

It was an Egyptian who came to my rescue. He was what would be called a Salafi now. I didn't agree with all his convictions.

What did that matter, when life and limb were in desperate peril?!

He was gallant enough to stop everything in his life to get me out of the country safely.
[I've been looking for him ever since in order to thank him!]

I watched as the officials grilled him mercilessly to get him to cough up any evidence they could use as even a flimsy justification to imprison me, which they were bent on doing if they could find the tiniest thing wrong about me.

In that country, that would mean torture, years of dungeons, maybe never to return to my home. This was not a wild idea: it happened to other foreigners, particularly journalists or similar types.

He had that same type of fire and strength in the face of adversity as SK has. Therefore he would not give in. High officials in that regime dangled a prestigious job running an agency, a fancy villa, and various bribes to him to incriminate me.

He refused to cave in, despite their massive pressure.

It is a dramatic story which I hardly ever tell anyone, as no one in the Western world could care less, not having any background in the Middle East politics. Neither do they have curiosity to learn or hear real stories.

Not only did he stick by me, a person he had never met before my arrival in the country -- an American at that, a perceived ENEMY !!! -- but he pulled out the sharpest answers to all the intelligence services' ruthless interrogation.

He used his sharp wits to deflect every one of their bullying questions. They all lwere huge beefy thugs, with no heart or compassion. I had never seen this type in the Muslim world where men usually have a soft heart, especially with regard to women, and foreign women are treated nicely.

When all else failed, he wowed them with his excellent classical Arabic to get me out of their offices or checkpoints. Listening, they would look mesmerized and in a trance, let me leave when they had intended to detain me, maybe for many years.

This happened over and over. Not just one time, because of the oppressive nature of the regime.

This rescuer was all arranged thank God by Allah.

For: after the friendly people of Afghanistan, and Iran, I had expected the same. I had no clue this country would be so brutal and dangerous to travel in.

Why not? There was not one whisper in the American press THEN about their bad deeds, because Washington was covertly helping that regime. Against all principles of justice, too !

I realized that really no other Muslim would have had the CONFIDENCE and FEARLESSNESS to stand up for a stranger and a woman like me! They would left to me to my fate.

Not only that, he treated me with dignity and respect, did not take advantage of my powerlessness the way nearly all tepid Muslims would have done, I'm speaking very directly here.

So, what I am arguing is that this is just a debate forum in the ethers. It's not real life, at all. A few insults here and there do not have the same impact as, let's say just for a vague comparison, that you are a woman on a dark street in Pashtunkhwa and murderers are threatening you.

Who is going to help you? It used to be that any passerby would help you.
Now I suspect times have changed due to all the violence and suffering over 3 decades.

So are YOU going to screech away about how retrograde are the Taliban or let's say loosely, Salafi ideas, when your rescuer happens to be from THAT belief system - think carefully.

Because when push comes to shove, they are the only ones who can be counted on probably to help you when you are in real distress.

For sure, a secularist is FAR less likely to be the one to step out on your behalf. Let's say the chances are almost zero.

I have seen this over and over through all my travels.

Today is that awful 'holiday' of America, Halloween. It's a celebration of demons.

So this theme is appropriate. If demons are attacking you via humans threatening you in some awful way, which person will have the unshakeable TRUST in God which makes them brave enough to stand up for you and FIGHT those evil forces ?
Instead of slinking away in fear as most humans do.

Insults are small fry when compared with this overall scenario.

Think deeply about this before jumping all over someone who could be your helper tomorrow due to the trademark quality of fearlessness in the face of pressure from Shaitan.

This is an exceedingly RARE commodity anywhere today. No one EVER stood up to that particular regime and its fearsome military intelligence. This Egyptian did, because of a fierce belief in Allah.

Nota bene: He never asked for any reward the way a secular person or many Muslims would demand baksheesh.
He never once thought like that.
Doesn't THAT spell everything out pretty well about integrity and devotion to Allah?

[Fahd]

u r my pashtuna hero catya
mashallah

[tor_khan]

Thank you for telling your story Catya ... there is much to be learned from what you say there, and I agree that rescue and hope come, very often, from the sources, we often least suspect.

To respond to the basic point that you are making, Catya; this forum is globally the most active Pashtoon interest forum and we live, as we all appreciate, in a joined-up world - it's too difficult, these days, to separate East from West and similarly it is not surprising to find that many of us have (sometimes strong) opinions on world politics.

The simple fact is that I don't think we can separate Pashtoons from global perceptions of who we are and as you know events in Pakistan and Afghanistan point right back at us, as a people. The internet is a murky place sometimes and people are paid to watch and trawl. You don't think that governments, policy-makers and think-tanks may have a passing interest in our forums, ever? I can't honestly speak with any hard evidence about this, but it wouldn't surprise me at all.

I believe that by design or inadvertently, we do represent a high-interest political body here. We represent a voice on Islam, a voice on Pashtoon politics, a voice on global events. We represent a voice on the passionate way that people feel about these things, and how often these things to come together. Given that basis, if we behave in ways that are becoming to us, we represent that characteristic.

Many member here come to learn and to gain knowledge and to understand the Pashtoon's deep and complex relationship and passion about Islam. The point, however, is completely missed when I am put up as a militant secularist and as someone who visits places of ill-repute by a member who chooses to align himself with the Islamic "resistance" you speak of with respect.

Amongst my Muslim brethren, I find inspiration in humbleness, piety and generosity. And whilst I have much learning to do on matters of faith, ridicule, falsity and hubris and not a part of what I am looking for.

Let me join you in your defense of Sangar's right to speak. I would even agree that there is much to be learned in listening (metaphorically speaking) to Sangar's opinions and thoughts. I admire people whose genuine convictions are a source of inspiration to others. However, let me raise a very strong voice in protest - not just at the baseless comments that were passed earlier in this thread - but at the thought that someone who professes insight, can make a deliberately twisted statement like that and claim to represent a credible Islamic opinion.

In publicity terms, Pashtoons are not doing so well, so in everything that we do, we represent our faith and our people I ask, both myself and others, if this is how we want the world to view us.

[Catya Sher]

Tor Khan,

Let me say one point about the monitoring of this site that you have mentioned.
Sometimes I think that many of these governmental agencies, particularly in America, are not all that keen to REALLY understand the mindset of Pashtuns. I fear they themselves have a pre-set agenda where it really doesn't matter to them much to arrive at an accurate assessment of what Pashtuns are caring about or concerned with today.

In former times, yes. But things have changed so much in this field, I expect, that trying to ascertain the Pashtun point of view is low on the priority lists of even think tanks which used to turn out independent, somewhat unbiased studies. Now they are on a different wavelength and seem to manufacture reports which will likely suit the agenda of political figures and whomever is in power in Washington DC.

What I mean is: I WISH they WERE analyzing Pashtuns carefully. I fear only a few neighboring countries would be really attuned to whatever members say on PF. Perhaps Russia would be interested, because their services are already well-seasoned in dealing with Pashtuns. And they DO care, usually. Unlike in America, where people jump from studying one area to others during their career, in the Soviet Union, one analyst would do nothing but study obscure Afghan tribes for decades.
Such people may or may not be by now working on the same topic today. Things have changed - SOMEWHAT - in Russia.

Let's say the old pattern still exists. Then Russia is more likely to tune in here than the U.S. or European powers.

Of course, any group may look in from time to time.
No one knows when, so of course it is the best if we keep on our best behavior at all times.

For what might observers, friendly or hostile, conclude from the current disarray here?

"Oh those Pashtuns/Afghans, etc. are ALL quarreling SO MUCH amongst themselves that they are not to be taken seriously, for example, as ready to retake the reins of power in Kabul or the region. "

But was your point, Tor Khan, that you were afraid that those monitors will have a bad impression about you or all people posting, or all Pashtuns everywhere ?!

I think you have been sufficiently vindicated by fellow people who came to your defense. If that was what you were fearing. Everything OK now?

[IamDZJ]

That had to be one of the worst assumptions I have seen in my life. To see it come from someone who is religious changes my views about Religion. This is what they represent I guess.

what does his presumptions have to do with your views about religion?

[Mayana]

That had to be one of the worst assumptions I have seen in my life. To see it come from someone who is religious changes my views about Religion. This is what they represent I guess.

See, Aseer Jaana, if we let this discourage us, what makes us different from all those prejudiced and Islamophobic bigots that we complain about day and night?

Study the religion, not the believers. If you're gonna let Sangar - or anyone else for that matter - define & represent your religion for you, problems like this are bound to arise. We cannot have others define us and then wonder why nobody likes us. And no one's mistakes and desperate attempts to justify those mistakes with religion should be considered part of religion. Tomorrow, if a Muslim kills someone, we're gonna let that change our views of the religion, too? No, wrora, the creation is flawed, the Creator is flawless. We can't hold a religion accountable for an individual's shortcomings.

[IamDZJ]

He doesn't represent all the Muslims. He just represents his Salafi cult of Islam and that is all. Islam is a moderate Religion which revolves around peace and love..

he doesn't represent any one but himself.

[شمله ور خراساني]

As it is, I was in Amsterdam for a day last week. Missed you Sangar.

The "red-light" districts just spill over into the regular shopping precincts - so how do you walk past some of the shop fronts without being "offended" / "corrupted" or at least having a comment on the kind of society that is being sold to people?

I wonder, is it that said "freedom" that drives people to the most rigid forms of religious expression or is the fact that Europe is still a deeply racist and divided place the reason why?

Tor-makhai ashna,

based on the above statement of yours I assumed you were straling down the red light district, which is adjasent to the normal shopping centres of inner city Amsterdam.

How am I suppose to figure out that when you mention red light district and that you have seen how it "spills over into" regular shopping presincts, that you are saying that you were staring at some nudity in magazines?

Stop being such a drama queen. You are so good in falsely accusing people.

First you use your moderators position to further the secularist agenda by falsely accusing me and sending me warnings in order to supress any conflicting views to the secularist dogma of you bunch, and now you play the role of a victim here as if I have said something out of the blue and you have not made a slightest gesture implying that you visited the brothels.

And mind you, the red light districts is one huge brothel. Most if it belongs to a Jewish investment company. So basically, once you go down certain roads in Amsterdam you are physically in a brothel.

You jump in blindly Mr Khorosani Sangar, tsa balah chi di num de.

I never said that I visited the brothels - I just noted how I got the impression that the flesh trade appeared to be pushed at people outside the zoned area. Read my post again.

I wonder, is it that said "freedom" that drives people to the most rigid forms of religious expression or is the fact that Europe is still a deeply racist and divided place the reason why?

And here just like a typical immoral secularist, you are making inseniuations about my religious beliefs.

As if people are going to adhere to quran and sunnah only after encountering nudity in public. There goes your false mask of being a conservative muslim (as you have called yourself before). You set interaction with nudity as a condition to become a practising muslim.

As if secularist Muslims who are actually rejecting half of quran because it conflicts with their secularist creed have not been influenced with external factors. You are an immoral person because you are a secularist. Who cares if you visit brothels or not, if you actually consume flesh while being in brothels or not? Your sin is being a secularist who promotes secularism by supporting the secularist cause and enjoining in falsehood and preventing the truth. Allah might forgive your sins but the fact that you are a secularist who rejects half of quran is much greater concern than committing zina.

[شمله ور خراساني]

That had to be one of the worst assumptions I have seen in my life. To see it come from someone who is religious changes my views about Religion. This is what they represent I guess.

مَن يَہۡدِ ٱللَّهُ فَهُوَ ٱلۡمُهۡتَدِ*ۖ وَمَن يُضۡلِلۡ فَلَن تَجِدَ لَهُ ۥ وَلِيًّ۬ا مُّرۡشِدً۬ا
Al-Kahf
He whom Allâh guides, is rightly guided; but he whom He sends astray, for him you will find no Walî (guiding friend) to lead him (to the right Path). (17)

The fact that you are becoming an apostate is because of Allah is guiding you out of the fold of Islam. Because nothing happens in this world without the will of Allah.

And why would Allah guide you out of the fold of Islam? It is because Allah guides people based on their intentions.

If you have evil intention, then Allah will guide you out of his straight path. And if you have good intentions, then allah will guide you on his straight path.

The fact that you are attributing your apostasy to me is only a manisfestation of the typical secularist nonsense so prevalent here on Pashtunforums.

You are a dishonest and immoral person just like the big drama queen of this thread, Tor-Khan.

[شمله ور خراساني]

I dont have time to comment to each and everyone of you immoral evil secularists who are joining in venting your frustration and anger at me because you feel you finally have found the best opportunity to do so.

But let me be frank, I dont care what you people say. Would any of you have had a morality and uphold any values dear to Muslims and Pashtuns in particular, then your admonismnent would have made a difference.

But since most of you are advocates of immorality and secularism who have had your silly feelings hurt elsewhere because I have been axing the roots of your secularist creed ever since I joined this forum, it is only a tap on the shoulder to see you now calling me names and falsely accusing me.

Because you have failed to defend your false beliefs in a secularism and immorality, so now you attack my personality because you dont have any other options.