Ban and delete those who ban and delete

[Tamim]

You logic of something coming from nothing is flawed. If God has always been, therefore something can come from nothing. So, if God does not exist, therefore existence can come from nothingness.

The idea of how people can be duped into religion or an ideology blindly is perfectly illustrated by how the Pashtun, a pure race, can be divided into two and then love their new homeland. Look at Pakistani Pashtun, they love Pakistan with all their heart, despite knowing how much pain Pakistan has caused Afghanistan and the Pashtun race.

The more you are kept in the dark, the more your arguments are loud. The more you are enlightened, the more you keep quiet.

[Manzareh]

You logic of something coming from nothing is flawed. If God has always been, therefore something can come from nothing. So, if God does not exist, therefore existence can come from nothingness.

"If God has always been here than that means something can come from nothing" Dude did you just write that? How does that even make sense. If something has always existed and was never created then absolute nothing has ever existed. Your tripping over your own words. Re-write that again. Intact let me ask you a simple question. Can something come from nothing?

[Manzareh]

And you've got a Jew (person that believes in God and religion) thanking your post LOL the kafirs are so funny lol this is hilarious. ImAjEw do you believe in God, or are you just an ass kisser type that changes her belief to suit the present moment.

[Tamim]

According to you God came from nothing. So, something can come from nothing according to you. Therefore, you are contradicting yourself by saying God needed to exist for the universe to come into existence.

You need to show me God, if He exists and created everything.

The universe came from nothing and shows its existence and shows how it creates.

[Manzareh]

According to you God came from nothing. So, something can come from nothing according to you. Therefore, you are contradicting yourself by saying God needed to exist for the universe to come into existence.

You need to show me God, if He exists and created everything.

The universe came from nothing and shows its existence and shows how it creates.

According to me God came from nothing?? I didn't say that. I said the complete opposite, I said there was never 'nothing' God has always existed, he has no beggining - which is one of the reasons he is called God. Comprendé?

In your own words "the universe came from nothing" lol ok, you clearly don't have a leg to stand on. My work here is done.

[Tamim]

You don't have to say explicitly say that God came from nothing. It is understood when you say that He always was. In other words, something can come from nothing, God, according to you. Meaning that no one created Him, he is, was and always will be. Therefore, He came into being, or was, all on His own.

You can sit there all you want and repeat your line that "there is no beginning." The fact that He is al Awwal shows there was a beginning. It was him. So, his initial state came all on its own.

You simply do not understand what you are saying. The idea you are present is simply an attribute of Alpha and Omega that existed long before al Awwal and al Akhir was preached by Islam.

Don't worry, you were done here long ago. You are not here to learn. You are here to parrot that which gives you comfort.

[Damir9000]

No, i do not accept God came into existence out of nowhere - where did i state this? why do you keep lying. I said Allah doesnt have a beginning nor an end, there was never 'nothing' Allah has always existed, if a being created Allah then that being would be God. Pretty simple. Yes it is illogical that the universe came into existance out of initial 'nothingness' it's absolutely ridiculous to believe that, and if you think these 'theories' are EVER going to one day prove that 'matter appeared from nothing' then your an idiot. Allah is the creator the supreme being that created the initial particles from which the universe was created through a series of events.

"There may be a God but Allah isn't him" Allah is just the Arabic word for God, i'm actually doubting you were ever a Muslim, probably just another Islamopheobe thats got the usual Ex-Muslim story. Furthermore, how can you call your self an atheist when youve just said in your own words your a agnostic. Your a confused individual. Can you speak Pashto?

Came to existence out of nowhere & Always existed is the same thing in principle.
Your phrasing can also be applied to the Universe.

Why is "The Universe always existed" more ridiculous than "God always existed" ?

"why do you keep lying"
Are you a baby?

Please spare us with your Mullah speech about the Allah being the supreme & ****.

I know Allah means God. I was born & raised muslim.
But my point was to make a distinction between the Islamic version of God and the generic God of the Universe.
So, when I say there maybe a God but Allah ain't him. I mean that your Islam is wrong & your prophet Muhammad was a liar.

You're paranoid dude, mannn.
Atheist & Agnotic are almost interchangeable.
The difference is Agnostic are open to the concept of God. You can check up the subtleties between them yourself.

Yes, I speak Pashto but not very good.

[Sarbani]

"I lack criticial thinking? says the man who believes in fairytales."
i guess believing that there was absolutely nothing for a period of time, then 'poooof' matter and particles came out of nothing and formed from this nothingness and created the universe which is in perfect balance today - Your telling me thats not a fairytale? LOL ok.

So if you consider the universe existing without God creating it a fairytale, then what do you consider these:

* Muhammad riding on a horse (Buraq) to heaven to speak to God
* Muhammad talking to angels in caves
* Muhammad receiving a revelation from God that men can only have 4 wives
* Muhammad having his heart literally cleansed by an angel

What are those then if you consider believing the universe existing on its own to be a fairytale?

[tor_khan]

Some of the comments are a continuation of the ideological discussion and detract from the support suggestions, announcements intended for this part of the sub forum.

Whilst I am not on forum all the time, I am aware that we need active moderation. I've approachd members and encouraged people to step up, but staffing is what it is and evidently we are thin. I would select more to strengthen the team, but I do have a certain criteria that I feel is core for selecting a moderator. This in itself is not without criticism or opposing opinions and we might not always agree with every editorial decision made.

On this occasion, I made the edit. The thread is soft deleted, so that I can see it, whilst the forum cannot. I don't think that there was a genuine attempt at debate, but simply an attempt to flame and provoke. I issued a warning. Matter dealt with. I haven't banned an active poster for some time, but the forum retains the right. We can all agree that debate requires the individual to exercise self-moderation and the observance of rules that include etiquette and respect.

[Manzareh]

You don't have to say explicitly say that God came from nothing. It is understood when you say that He always was. In other words, something can come from nothing, God, according to you. Meaning that no one created Him, he is, was and always will be. Therefore, He came into being, or was, all on His own.

You can sit there all you want and repeat your line that "there is no beginning." The fact that He is al Awwal shows there was a beginning. It was him. So, his initial state came all on its own.

You simply do not understand what you are saying. The idea you are present is simply an attribute of Alpha and Omega that existed long before al Awwal and al Akhir was preached by Islam.

Don't worry, you were done here long ago. You are not here to learn. You are here to parrot that which gives you comfort.

Ok, let me make this more simpler because your going around in circles. How does me saying 'God was always in existence and never created' automatically mean 'God came from nothing' ..? It's 2 completely different things that your assuming is the same to suit your naivety. I'm saying 'God was never created' and your answer to that is 'that means there was nothing before him and he came into being by himself' you are out of your mind, are you reading my posts upside down or something. God never came into being, he was always here. You understand the concept of eternity right?? It's the same thing but backwards in time. I think you lack the comprehension of this, but just because you cannot comprehend something doesn't make it false, the attributes of all mighty Allah extend way past your mental capacity, he is free from your logic single minded and linear thinking.

I'm glad you brought up one Allah's names 'Al-Awwal' .. Awwal is not the same linguistically as Awwal in Pashto (BSS is half Arab I'm sure he can verify this) Al-Awwal lingustically is the one who neither has a beginning nor an end. There is none prior to Him; He is self-existent, all comes from Him, and He is the cause of all that became. "..Linguistically al-awwal means the one who advances or precedes others. The firstness of Allah Al-Awwal means: the One Whose existence has no beginning [Al-Bayhaqi] and Who existed before everything without a limit (of beginning) [Ibn Jareer At-Tabari]..." These are from our Hadith books so don't try teach us words that you don't understand.

If you think what I said from the above is assuming there was something before Allah then your a fricking retard

[Manzareh]

So if you consider the universe existing without God creating it a fairytale, then what do you consider these:

* Muhammad riding on a horse (Buraq) to heaven to speak to God
* Muhammad talking to angels in caves
* Muhammad receiving a revelation from God that men can only have 4 wives
* Muhammad having his heart literally cleansed by an angel

What are those then if you consider believing the universe existing on its own to be a fairytale?

Ovcourse I believe in angels and believe in Buraq etc .. if i believe in a supreme being that created everything, the all mighty then those things you mentioned go without saying. Do you have any idea how big the cosmos are, how small and futile earth is in the grand spectrum of things? For every grain of sand in the Sahara desert there is a separate solar system, you think there is no other life out there, God has created many things, if he created all this.. If he created the universe then creating Angels and a buraq is nothing to him. I do not believe the universe came from nothing as you do. if you believe it did then you believe in magic.

[Bengal_Tiger]

Ovcourse I believe in angels and believe in Buraq etc .. if i believe in a supreme being that created everything, the all mighty then those things you mentioned go without saying. Do you have any idea how big the cosmos are, how small and futile earth is in the grand spectrum of things? For every grain of sand in the Sahara desert there is a separate solar system, you think there is no other life out there, God has created many things, if he created all this.. If he created the universe then creating Angels and a buraq is nothing to him. I do not believe the universe came from nothing as you do. if you believe it did then you believe in magic.

x 2

- undersigned.


The creators omnipotence is manifested by His ability to create and sustain the entire known universe which the earth is a very minute part of, the earth itself then contains landmass, oceans which themselves contain organisms e.g. mammals, reptiles, fish, which are themselves composed of billions and trillions of molecules, atoms all fully functioning in a smooth harmonious way for life to exist. A "program" so complex that no engineer could create it without severe malfunctioning.

In the light of this other suspensions of normal natural physical processes i.e. miracles are trivial and can easily happen if the omnipotent Creator so wills it to.

[Tamim]

This is why I say you are not here to learn.

I am not going in circles.

When Atheist say that the Universe came from nothing it means that there was and there is still no observable creator. Or for that matter, there is no evidence that some being designed and creator the universe. Evidence shows that it all came on its own, without being created.

Therefore, Atheist could claim that the Universe could have had no beginning; that the Universe always existed. Atheist could argue that the Universe did not come from anything. It just was.

However, intellectual honesty requires one to do research and figure out the why and the what. Thus, it has been theoretically retraced back that the universe must have had a beginning, due to the existence of time and due to a theoretical assumption; and, one of the theories is that it all started with the Big Bang (meaning, coming from nothing, and that what prior to the Big Bang, always was, it was not created)

The Big Bang is not a truth, it is an assumption. It is popular because we all talk about it in the science and philosophy communities. Another theory of how the universe came about is God. However, that has not been proven either. It was an easy way to explain things before science was discovered. Thus, in the religious communities it has become the status quo to refer everything back to God, otherwise it would defeat the existence of religion.

Like I said earlier, human beings can be programmed to believe anything, whether they are religious or not. The difference with Atheists is that they are not assuming anything when teaching that God does not exist: because there is no evidence of Him, therefore, He does not exist. While the religious folks assume that God exists and then teach arguments to prove his hidden existence.

The religious communities like to use the observable world to show that God exists: there has to be a Creator argument. For example, they say that Picasso had to design and create the Mona Lisa: it would be absurd to assume that the Mona Lisa came all on its own. So, when their logic is used against them they don't allow us to use the observable world to derive arguments. Then, when they are asked as to who created God, they say that God was not created, He always was. I don't mind this kind of reasoning. However, God is not observable. So, does He even exist for Him to have even created in the first place?

To postulate that God always was, that He was not created and did not come from anything, and there was no beginning, is easy. What you are doing is finding ways to keep God hidden. If He exists, He is hidden, so it is easy to develop arguments to keep Him hidden and feel good about yourself that you kept Him hidden.

Islam and the Judeo-Christian theology was the brainchild of Greek philosophy. A lot of the arguments the Abrahamic faiths present have already by thought of by Greek philosophers, like the Alpha-Omega argument. The Awwal-Akhir argument.

While I will give you an A for being persistent to trying to prove that God always was, no beginning and no end, you have to admit, that this gets us no where. Why? We cannot observe this in the physical world. Further, no Prophet has ever seen God. They have claimed to have talked to Him and have received revelation, but no accounts of seeing Him.

Seeing is believing, EVEN for theists. But, remember what I said about religion? It is the opiate of the masses. That is why religious people can be bipolar, and shift whenever it suits them.

Also, in religious texts it is mentioned that God created everything and that you will see Him one day, in the Hereafter. However, there is no evidence that He created and there is no evidence that we will ever see Him.

Sorry, I digressed. For all we know, the Big Bang theory might be wrong and that the Universe always was. However, because we can observe time, therefore, it is only intellectually honest to assumption it had a beginning.

Since, God cannot be observed, therefore, it is foolish to assume that he created or that he exists.

So...long story short, if God can be, coming from nothing, therefore, the Universe can come from nothing. Or better yet, that which was before the Big Bang always was, was not created; in other words, it came from nothing, because it has always existed.

ps

coming from nothing, coming from nowhere=always has been, coming into being suddenly.

pps

If you are going to use physical world arguments to prove God always was, then you have to accept physical world arguments when that idea is countered. We are only limited to our physical senses.

If someone tells you that he has an imaginary friend, you don't further ask anymore question, because neither that person can explain their imaginary friend neither will you be able to comprehend even if he attempts.

It is wise for him to stay quiet about his imaginary friend, and it is wise for you to not probe him on it. There is no analogous yard-stick to convey that message. Thus, if they resort to explaining using the physical world, then they will be scrutinized.

This is exactly what is happening here. You are being scrutinized, yet instead of saying sorry, I cannot explain it in a way which makes it easy, you resort to insults.

So, it is does not help you when you make personal attacks. Stay mature and learn something. I am not here to convert you, but I will do my best to impart you with any knowledge I have.

[Damir9000]

x 2

- undersigned.


The creators omnipotence is manifested by His ability to create and sustain the entire known universe which the earth is a very minute part of, the earth itself then contains landmass, oceans which themselves contain organisms e.g. mammals, reptiles, fish, which are themselves composed of billions and trillions of molecules, atoms all fully functioning in a smooth harmonious way for life to exist. A "program" so complex that no engineer could create it without severe malfunctioning.

In the light of this other suspensions of normal natural physical processes i.e. miracles are trivial and can easily happen if the omnipotent Creator so wills it to.

Stop making stuff up.

[Bengal_Tiger]

Stop making stuff up.

?

If we were to accept belief in an all-powerful God then we automatically accept he can carry out miracles.

It's basic common sense.