What constitutes a Pashtun?

[pukhtana]

Roadrunner 3 answers for this.

first one

to be considered a Pashtun you have to be born a Pashtun fighter. That's it.

second one.

Being a Pashtun means following Pashtunwali and speaking Pashto.

Third one.
Being a Pashtun means tribal affiliation being born to Pashtun father and speaking the language.

Which one do you prefer or like so we can expand. Roadrunner please don't mix what a Pashtun is and what a practicing Pashtun is.

Its like Islam.
A Muslim is someone who submits to Allah. But a practicing Muslims does more than that, he prays, reads Quran, ahadith etc.

[roadrunner]

Jasmine, how can a jamaican african be pashtun (the same goes for arab, german, russian, or chinese)? That doesn't make sense. If a Pashtun lives there, they have to be Pashtun in the blood.

Right. So it's Pashtun by blood.

I think roadrunner is bringing up some mute points.
Pashtun definition is patrilineal, if your father is pashtun, you are pashtun.

So if the father is Pashtun, the child is a Pashtun irrespective of the mother's ethnic group.

Doesn't this mean your first statement is incorrect?

If the father is Pashtun, the mother say Swedish, the child would be Pashtun by your definition, but his or her blood would be half Swedish (or full Swedish since it all comes from the mother I suppose)?

Certainly the child can be a Pashtun, that makes sense, but would the child's blood be Pashtun? It would be a bit Pashtun and a bit Swedish in this case.

In addition, you have to adhere to pashtunwali to remain a pashtun.

So blood and pashtunwali.

There is no need to get into the race stuff of this all, but blood matters to a certain degree. In that case, anyone in the world can be a pashtun???NO, pashtunwali is sticking to the codes, and Pashtuns are unique people of that region with no real ethnological ties to surrounding ethnic groups.

roadrunner, are you pashtun, or and admirer of Pashtun?

Right. So not everyone in the world can be a Pashtun. So as Pashtuns we must have some unique physical traits that set us apart from others.

These unique physical traits are.......

[roadrunner]

Roadrunner 3 answers for this.

first one

to be considered a Pashtun you have to be born a Pashtun fighter. That's it.

second one.

Being a Pashtun means following Pashtunwali and speaking Pashto.

Third one.
Being a Pashtun means tribal affiliation being born to Pashtun father and speaking the language.

Which one do you prefer or like so we can expand. Roadrunner please don't mix what a Pashtun is and what a practicing Pashtun is.

Its like Islam.
A Muslim is someone who submits to Allah. But a practicing Muslims does more than that, he prays, reads Quran, ahadith etc.

So a Pashtun has different ways of attaining Pashtunhood, you mean?

[Wrayun]

Pukhtoonyat factors

Pukhto the language: Language is the biggest factor in defining a Pukhtoon. Language is not just a system of communication but also the mother of the culture to the people that speaks it. Every language has a unique culture, and that culture is defined by morals, values, ethics, norms and customs that governs the people which their specific language can address and communicate. In Pukhto, the concepts of Ghairat, Nang, Namus, Nanawatey etc. are just a few examples. They are not just words, they are unique standards that define cultural traits and sets of characteristics amongst the Pukhtoon people. Other languages might have similar concepts, words and definitions, but only Pukhto can define their true intentions midst Pukhtoons and what these words mean to the Pukhtoon community when it comes to their implementation. Is there a concept of Ghairat midst other cultures, and a word in other languages that defines such characteristics? Probably so. Though to what extent and level such concepts holds confidence over a society can truly be addressed by their unique language. What type of psychological, sentimental, and emotional values does it trigger can be done by that specific language. For example, if you were to refer to the male or female genitalia in English (no matter how innocuous the context), it will not have the same psychological and emotional effect if you were to refer to them in Pukhto to a Pukhtoon. The mere suggestion of which can trigger strong feelings and emotions surpassing any one would feel amongst non-Pukhtoons.

This is why Pukhto is not only known as the language of Pukhtoons, but also the code of conduct, way of life, and the values of the Pukhtoons, are defined by this single world PUKHTO. The word Pukhtoonwale is just a substitute, just like Afghanyat, Pukhtoonyat, or Pathanwalge. Amongst the Pukhtoons, the culture, way of life, is defined by a single word, and that is Pukhto. Pukhto kawa (do Pukhto), Pukhto lara (keep Pukhto), Pukhto gata (win Pukhto).

A Pukhtoon who does not speak Pukhto can never truly understand or implement these characteristics, traits or values. That is why all Pukhtoons who are so-called Pukhtoons by blood, yet do not speak Pukhto, have either lax implementation of these concepts in their lives or at times might not even subscribe to them at all. Thus without the language, the culture, the heritage, traits and characteristics of the Pukhtoon are neglected and eventually will die. You can't be a Pukhtoon if you don't speak Pukhto. You won't be able to genuinely appreciate or experience what it means to be one.


Pukhto the culture: Pukhtoonwale is the title given to the set of values, morals and practices amongst the Pukhtoons by scholars and even some tribes midst the Pukhtoons. Traditionally all of that is defined by a single word, Pukhto, just like the language amid the Pukhtoons themselves. Some basic core principles are Nanawatey (refuge), Melmestiya (hospitality), Badal (revenge), Nang (sovereignty), Namus (honor), Ghairat (diligence/dignity) etc. these concepts are not unique to Pukhtoons but they play a far greater role in the Pukhtoon society than any other society you can possibly compare them to. The definition of each principle is not limited to the given interpretation. They impact even the smallest of matters/concerns in the Pukhtoon civilization. Their function in day to day matters is immense.

Pukhtoons traditionaly prize each other over these qualities. To stress their importance, a Pukhtoon who lacks these qualities is not considered equal, and a non-Pukhtoon who might show these qualities can be considered equal in status. A non-Pukhtoon living amongst Pukhtoons is expected to follow and respect the principles of Pukhtoonwale. To a Pukhtoon any sign of weakness or negligence in the application of these principles can have dire consequences. These principles, characteristics, and values is what separates a Pukhtoon from a non-Pukhtoon not only amongst their areas but also in the world. A Pukhtoon is expected to live by them even if no longer living amongst his/her people, but its not always the case. For some, leaving Pukhtoon regions is equivalent to being free from these demanding ethics. Which further stresses their importance amongst the Pukhtoon society.

Lineage: Lineage plays a major factor amongst Pukhtoons but it is not THE FACTOR. There is this misconception that Pukhtoons descended from a single ancestor. There is no proof of that, and any evidence provided to support it, for example the family tree of Qais Abd Rashid, contradicts this theory. Lineage is not necessarily biological, it is most often by close associations. Most Pukhtoon tribes are not directly related to each other by blood, but by close associations. They might come from the same genetic stock, but it is their language, culture, and geography that plays a far major uniting role than biological ties. The Punjaabis and Taajiks share same genetics with Pukhtoons, but Pukhtoons do not associate with them. Similarly, many tribes and groups that previously weren't part of the Pukhtoon ethnic group, today associate with Pukhtoons after their assimilation because of the linguist and cultural factor.

A Pukhtoon from one tribe has little concern over the blood of a Pukhtoon from another. There is no way for them to verify that any Pukhtoon is the child or offspring of the said “baba”. The only validating factor here is association, and what is witnessed i.e. spoken language and way of conduct i.e. Pukhto to be recognize as Pukhtoon. Blood ties play a far greater role when it comes to direct relations and within individual tribes. Such ties are verifiably important in the matters of inheritance and status. It has little jurisdiction in declaring someone a Pukhtoon or not. It is this direct and individual tribal importance of blood relations that many Pukhtoons ignorantly apply to the overall Pukhtoon ethnicity.

People who think in this line are limited by their own narrow tribalistic output. An easy way to challenge this view is to ask them if there is a simple way to verify if anyone who claims to be a descendant of a said forefather? No. And what direct concerns do you have over any single claim? None. Of course if someone claims to be the son of your father, and is now asking for inheritance, you should be very concerned. But in the matters of ethnicity, the scale of the subject, it is a hopeless task. We then rely on what is precisely verifiable through observation and that comes down to language and characteristics (culture).

The other issue they raise is the prejudicial fear mongering factor of "What if a Jamaican, or African, learns Pukhto, will he/she be Pukhtoon?". Such thinking stems out of their racist and bigoted biased views. Simply put, what if someone that looks like a Pukhtoon, or a Caucasian with blonde hair or blue eyes, learn Pukhto and follows Pukhtoonwale, will that make it better?

Your personal preferences of beauty, looks, has no say in the overall context of Pukhtoon identity.

To most Pukhtoons, a non-Pukhtoon who has the same understanding of ghariat, namus, nang as the Pukhtoons is more equal than a blood Pukhtoon who believes or subscribes to none of them. Who do you think a Pukhtoon is likely to marry his daughter to, a gharitamand non-Pukhtoon, or a beghairata Pukhtoon?

As for Englishmen, which Englishmen? The Welsh, Scots, Irish, Germanic, Viking, Britons etc. etc. who at one point or another spoke different languages, practiced different cultures, but today after being assimilated by the English are Englishmen? The desi who is born and raised in England is far more English than an "Englishman" raised in the jungles of Africa. Such people confuse ethnicity with racial make ups. Languages, cultures, never truly belong to a single racial group. They are adopted, assimilated, by various groups of people. Pukhtoon culture as it is today has assimilated various concepts and ideas from various different people that belonged to various different racial groups. There is never a time when a single person becomes the sole originator of a culture, rather it is always a collective of a people that gives birth to it. That's why, there never was a single originator of the Pukhtoons.

So if a Jamaican adopts Pukhto, and follows Pukhtoonwale, and calls him/herself Pukhtoon, there is nothing you can do about it. You can stay away from them, but that's your racist and prejudicial narrow perspective. After all such a person is no longer a "Jamaican". Yaa maan? Their over all association, loyalty to the Pukhtoon nation is important. It is thus up to the collective Pukhtoon conscious whether to declare them as Pukhtoons or not.....which they will have to...for example, the "AFGHANS", are a sub offshoot of this phenomena, who are a mix mash of various differing groups. Pukhtoons in Afghanistan eventually came to the understanding that those non-Pukhtoons who are very different in looks and what not, are now as much as Afghans as the Pukhtoons are. The same way, if you were to establish a Pukhtoon nation, the same will apply. This is true for every nation on this planet today.

The mongoloid races of Asia are similar racial stock, but they are known by various different names i.e the Japanese, Chinese, Koreans, Vietnamese due to their unique LANGUAGES AND CULTURES etc.

To sum it, language and culture plays a far greater role then lineage in defining a Pukhtoon. We don't have to worry about any Africans, or Jamaicans or Mongoloids declaring themselves to be Pukhtoons. Such hypothesis are based on irrational phobias.

[Nick]

Warning Too long and confusing if you lack knowledge of history jk lol Sorry but I am going to put this into my own words and give some different side of the story. Forgive as my habit I do jump off topic sometimes. I will try not to.

So here it goes First of all Afghanmeansdanger please I am as worthy to be called Scholar I admire your kind words but its too much to coup with lol.



Dear Roadrunner you are touching on the topic which can piss off alot of people but also many do agree with you I would say majority of Pashtuns would love to agree with you to classify Pashtun as a race, and that is what you want right?. But needless to say I would love to agree with you only if I was a pashtun as well. Cause Hey I wanna take some pride in this name "Pashtun". Unfortunately history does not tell everything, based on few facts as well as Folklore and non-Islam books we have learned that this "Time-frame" of these people called Pashtuns, does not go beyond 14th century.

3 reasons why.
a) They were mostly pro-Islamic/Mystic/sufi, and non-nationalists, perhaps a reminder that our first nationalist, and country loving person may Allah bless his sould was Pir Roshan. I am very founded of him and his work, I did some reason but due lack of my understanding of Pashtu I still have alot to learn.

b) The Language they spoke was considered "Haram" this is famous and well known amongst Dari poets who have read about an ancient language in Khorasan that was still strong, and itwas considered language of Hell. Educated Afghans are well aware that this was probably either 100 yeras after Khalfa Khalid's death or right during the time of early short lived Suri Dynasty king Amir Ghoror's era. Now Suri were a major power when Arabs attack Persia, Suri tribe was involved in killing Kousrow that made Arab job much easier. We know for the fact that from Palavi kufari history book which was translated by Ferdowsi combined with works of other Islamic Arab/Afghan/Balkhi historians that completed his book called "Shahnameh". According to Ferdowsi Suri tribe had full control of Khorasan and that a young Suri leader Mahey Suri came in power after death of his Father, and he killed king Khusrow, took his wealth as booty and land, ruled until he surrounded to Arabs. According to Arab sources Suri king was killed by men of Persian royal family and escape to Turkistan (Modern Tajikistan was known as Gates of Chin to Arabs). However according to Ferdowsi Mahey was killed by King of China who was a friend to Khosrow and revenge to his death. According to Zardastians Mayey Suri was a slave of Arabs and he sold his loyalty to Arabs just to rule and his death came after declined to be converted. So its hard to judge how powerful these Suri (Ghuri) tribes were. But I would strong enough that our Amir Ghoror might of been the grandson of Mahey Suri.

c) Continuous wars between Turkic Suljak, Shia Khawarizam and Mongolian invasion has really damaged the works of many historians and records are missing one example is history of Beyhaqi almost 80% of Islamic scholars agree that his Book has been touch aside from that from his original book pages are missing and that only 25% remained, somehow shoved in book shelves. My point is that either during Safivads or during Mongolian era when Shiism was at its peak in power but under Mongolian leaders. The great works of many Sunni scholars and poets have disappeared. Specially regarding Sunni rulers of Khorasan (Afghanistan), tribes as well as languages and cultural knowledge. We know for the fact from 3rd party sources specially Arabic sources who at older times might of copied sources from scholars and historians that was available to them at one time, something which today are no-where to be found and only remain writers names with great respect.

Going back to before the first invasion, when the first Pashtun groups migrated into the area.

You can't go as far back to some BS claims of modern hindu, Aryan or some Chinki related modern turkic Theories or Islamic created, and Shia support myths of Jewish theories.

The pashtuns today speak a language that was not as same as 1300 years ago and the pashtun of 1300 Ad did not speak the same language as 500 AD pre-Islamic natives. Without Islamic era I can't even place a word "Pashtun" before Islam.

For all We know is that majority of Pashtu speaking tribes are Native if not 80% at least 60% of these tribes have been in Afghanistan before Cyrus's invasion. I can provide source of some of these tribes that are very much unproven by wikipedia LOL but well known to ancient Greeks and Bulgerians and other non-Afghans sources far before Islam, bearing almost the same name such as Apradas for Afridis or Pactyan for Paktiwals.

I would say Pashtuns never invaded Afghanistan because they were always the natives fighting outsiders, being as native as Suri which I mentioned above or others. If you want Genetical prove of such migration and invasion I would say wash your hand on such BS because its not that easy to solve. I was reading somewhere where a genetic research proved that Green Afghan eyes was result of mutation were originally native of hindukush. Now here was it true or false. I have green eyes but not my daughter nor my brothers or my father or uncle, or mother, yes according to my grandfather as he remembers in young age my eyes looked like eyes of his grandfather "wow" is what I said to him. So just because few Afghans does have it does not mean we can claim half of Europe as Afghan and nor we can say that we are decendents of Europeans. Needless to say but Hindukush like environment also exists in some parts of Europe.

So my point is Pashtun trait. How should a PAshtun look like is a false ideology that can never come into God's created formula. As you agreed We are not pure race, and nor we are aliens that nothing can be found regarding us pre-Mughal Era. Sure there is just because Afghanistan did not went through the normal "nationalization of History" 1955-1995 where 90% of the world's nations complete their national history Books and not a single reliable source was presented from Afghan view. Simply because from 1955-1960s was Daud vs Zahir, and 1965-1985 was Communist vs Islam era, and by 1985 countries like Iran and Pakistan have completed not only their 10,000 history pages but as well as wrote about Afghanistan's history LOL and this is where the problem begins.

Many members still have major difficulties in trying to makes sense out of so much confusion and BS made up and FAke-self made history books specially western ones that are written in English.



My point we are not on the stage to go back to 6000 BCE and connect the Pashtuns. There is only one major reason. Tribal society does not last that long. Tribal society always brakes down, if we had a chaste system we could of been weak or strong in terms society as whole. But with tribal society, every tribe has pride and every tribe even from same family are going against each-other, like a family disputes turning into violence and beginning of creating another enemy.
Another thing with tribal society is the formation of Confederacies, that results usually with friendship of two tribes either through marriage or maybe against enemy invaders, as year passes the nationalism within the confederacy lives long enough to destroy the original roots of the two or more tribes that originally formed the confederacy. Perhaps most famous one is Durrani formation, a bad example would be account of 2-3 million Noorzai who are dissed as not being pajbai, another example would be Ludi Qabayil vs Ghalji as many Ghalji rejects them being Ghalji, because like Durrani having Pajpay and Zerhak, Ghalji also claims to have Tooran and Boran. Famous Tooran would be Khorati and Hottaki and famous Boran would be Suliman khel and Musa khel. The conflict starts with Shai propaganda a writer name Naimatuallah that adds a tribe of Ludi under command of King Abraham Ludi of Sultan-e-Hind ow Kabulistan as part of Ghalji, who ruled right before Ludi.
Now according to Persia shia Sources a Shia prince named Hussian LOL don't ask me Prince of which Hell or heaven cause this history BS has no background or prove. Raped a Nomad girl named Motu, who gave birth to Harami son called Ghalji, and later married her to have a Halali son called Ludi who was grandfather of Abraham Ludi. Now this makes no sense the fact that Ghalji is way toooo big enough for Shia BS to be considered Harami. Another fact that Suliman Khel's branch named Babakar or Babakarzai have history dealing with Mahmud of Ghazni that was 300 years before Ludi Sultanate. In fact the whole Ludi Qabayil is further into mix of confusion. which is why their root is still not known.


Remember Pashtuns are linguistically classified as one group just as all English speakers of world wide being English, India or Irland, you speak English you are respected by your english tongue. internally they hate you love you is same as how one tribe hates another. To me Pashtuns are all Afghan, there I had the word Pashtun but rather classify them as racially Afghan.
Dar nejad-e Har Pashton bego Awghan,
Wali nago Dar nejad har Afghan bohad Pashton.

Which is why there is a saying Every Pashtun is an Afghan by Race/Blood, but not every Afghan in Race is a Pashtun. This was the notion long before any formation of British drawn line or any sort of nationalism. Something very open until 1900s nowadays makes no sense, because people wants to compare this into national identity. And say Only Pashtun=Afghan Race, which somehow tries to get the message to people's hears that if you are Pashtun U are Afghan otherwise no.
Something that Farsiwans like myself disagree, as in terms of our roots and history, we choose our language to be Dari just as we all choose Arabic as our language for the first 300 years of Khalifa rule. So what we were non-Ajami Arabs for the first 300 years of khalfa rule? LOL Brother which is why an Ajami remain as Ajami despite having to live like an Arab still was not considered an Arab. I agree with you By practicing, and having to live with a culture does not change your skin color to facial traits (This applies to Jamaican example).
However a long period of intermixing withing the country may have an outcome somewhat acceptable to the native society, and perhaps, the original genes may even be lost with 500 years ranch. Remind me Zalmai's Joke where an Afgan couple's baby was exchanged, and so the Afghans assume they gave birth to a Black skin, black hair son, the husband cries out suspecting the wife, and before he starts mother of wife comes and starts kissing the African child and claims that his grandfather was African lol

[amna.]

3 things constitute a Pashtun.

1)Lineage
2)Language
2)Following the code of life(Pashtunwali)which predates Islam.

[Shamaar]

I'm sorry to say this, but I utterly despise topics that continuously deal with completely futile issues such as these.

The Dalai Lama said:

If you have fear of some pain or suffering, you should examine whether there is anything you can do about it. If you can, there is no need to worry about it; if you cannot do anything, then there is also no need to worry.

I feel this quote is extremely applicable to situations of this type. Are Pashtuns afraid that some ridiculous criteria out there will classify them as non-Pashtun? Who cares what the definition of a Pashtun is, because definitions of people are always changing. Look at the Jews, they were considered cowards and weak, and now look at how strong Israel is.

I'd respect any non-Pashtun more who is doing something to better the lives of Pashtun people, than some "pure and proud" Pashtun who is sitting around not giving a damn about them.

[IamDZJ]

The ability to overlook his own desire of wanting to live with a sexy blond over that of his sister's desire for wanting to continue studying passed 8th grade.
Aaaa! *ducks* please don't hit me! I wont speak again! I mean it!

LOL...I am going straight to hell, aint I?

[roadrunner]

obviously, one would be able to identify a pashtun on the street!!!

Really? How would you identify a Pashtun in the street if over many centuries Pashtuns have had mothers from all the non Pashtun ethnic groups?

[roadrunner]

This is a big post. I'll see how far I get.

Pukhto the language: Language is the biggest factor in defining a Pukhtoon. Language is not just a system of communication but also the mother of the culture to the people that speaks it. Every language has a unique culture, and that culture is defined by morals, values, ethics, norms and customs that governs the people which their specific language can address and communicate.

The English language has many different cultures. It could be Welsh or Gaelic, Canadian, or even Indian where it is spoken.

In Pukhto, the concepts of Ghairat, Nang, Namus, Nanawatey etc. are just a few examples. They are not just words, they are unique standards that define cultural traits and sets of characteristics amongst the Pukhtoon people. Other languages might have similar concepts, words and definitions, but only Pukhto can define their true intentions midst Pukhtoons and what these words mean to the Pukhtoon community when it comes to their implementation. Is there a concept of Ghairat midst other cultures, and a word in other languages that defines such characteristics? Probably so. Though to what extent and level such concepts holds confidence over a society can truly be addressed by their unique language. What type of psychological, sentimental, and emotional values does it trigger can be done by that specific language. For example, if you were to refer to the male or female genitalia in English (no matter how innocuous the context), it will not have the same psychological and emotional effect if you were to refer to them in Pukhto to a Pukhtoon. The mere suggestion of which can trigger strong feelings and emotions surpassing any one would feel amongst non-Pukhtoons.

Milmastia in English means hospitality.

It doesn't really have a different meaning.

But it is more important to Pashtun culture than many of the English-speaking cultures.

It is Pashtunwali that gives it this importance, not really Pashto.

Pashtunwali would be how an observant Pashtun's culture would be I suppose.

A Pukhtoon who does not speak Pukhto can never truly understand or implement these characteristics, traits or values. That is why all Pukhtoons who are so-called Pukhtoons by blood, yet do not speak Pukhto, have either lax implementation of these concepts in their lives or at times might not even subscribe to them at all. Thus without the language, the culture, the heritage, traits and characteristics of the Pukhtoon are neglected and eventually will die. You can't be a Pukhtoon if you don't speak Pukhto. You won't be able to genuinely appreciate or experience what it means to be one.

I would disagree with this.

As long as each aspect of Pashtunwali is translatable, you can implement it whether you speak Pashto on not.

Why would a non Pashto speaker have difficulty being hospitable, for example?

Pukhto the culture: Pukhtoonwale is the title given to the set of values, morals and practices amongst the Pukhtoons by scholars and even some tribes midst the Pukhtoons. Traditionally all of that is defined by a single word, Pukhto, just like the language amid the Pukhtoons themselves. Some basic core principles are Nanawatey (refuge), Melmestiya (hospitality), Badal (revenge), Nang (sovereignty), Namus (honor), Ghairat (diligence/dignity) etc. these concepts are not unique to Pukhtoons but they play a far greater role in the Pukhtoon society than any other society you can possibly compare them to. The definition of each principle is not limited to the given interpretation. They impact even the smallest of matters/concerns in the Pukhtoon civilization. Their function in day to day matters is immense.

Pashtun culture is based around Pashtunwali.

Observant Pashtuns follow this.

That would basically be the culture.

A non-Pukhtoon living amongst Pukhtoons is expected to follow and respect the principles of Pukhtoonwale.

Why? If Pashtuns are being hospitable to non Pashtuns, they can freely follow their own culture within the limits of taste, surely?

To a Pukhtoon any sign of weakness or negligence in the application of these principles can have dire consequences. These principles, characteristics, and values is what separates a Pukhtoon from a non-Pukhtoon not only amongst their areas but also in the world. A Pukhtoon is expected to live by them even if no longer living amongst his/her people, but its not always the case. For some, leaving Pukhtoon regions is equivalent to being free from these demanding ethics. Which further stresses their importance amongst the Pukhtoon society.

As you get onto next, can't lineage be the seperator rather than the application of these principles?

Lineage: Lineage plays a major factor amongst Pukhtoons but it is not THE FACTOR. There is this misconception that Pukhtoons descended from a single ancestor. There is no proof of that, and any evidence provided to support it, for example the family tree of Qais Abd Rashid, contradicts this theory. Lineage is not necessarily biological, it is most often by close associations. Most Pukhtoon tribes are not directly related to each other by blood, but by close associations. They might come from the same genetic stock, but it is their language, culture, and geography that plays a far major uniting role than biological ties. The Punjaabis and Taajiks share same genetics with Pukhtoons, but Pukhtoons do not associate with them. Similarly, many tribes and groups that previously weren't part of the Pukhtoon ethnic group, today associate with Pukhtoons after their assimilation because of the linguist and cultural factor.

I agree Pashtuns are not descended from a single person least of all Arabs or Jews or Persians or whatever else.

Why are Pashtun genetics not unique to Pashtuns incidentally?

A Pukhtoon from one tribe has little concern over the blood of a Pukhtoon from another. There is no way for them to verify that any Pukhtoon is the child or offspring of the said “baba”. The only validating factor here is association, and what is witnessed i.e. spoken language and way of conduct i.e. Pukhto to be recognize as Pukhtoon. Blood ties play a far greater role when it comes to direct relations and within individual tribes. Such ties are verifiably important in the matters of inheritance and status. It has little jurisdiction in declaring someone a Pukhtoon or not. It is this direct and individual tribal importance of blood relations that many Pukhtoons ignorantly apply to the overall Pukhtoon ethnicity.

I can tell if two Pashtuns are related or not by looking at their faces. Isn't this what lineage is?

The other issue they raise is the prejudicial fear mongering factor of "What if a Jamaican, or African, learns Pukhto, will he/she be Pukhtoon?". Such thinking stems out of their racist and bigoted biased views.

Is it not a legitimate question, rather than a racist one?

As for Englishmen, which Englishmen? The Welsh, Scots, Irish, Germanic, Viking, Britons etc. etc. who at one point or another spoke different languages, practiced different cultures, but today after being assimilated by the English are Englishmen?

The Scots are Scotsmen, not Englishmen afaik. They do have their own language, but it's not spoken so much.

So if a Jamaican adopts Pukhto, and follows Pukhtoonwale, and calls him/herself Pukhtoon, there is nothing you can do about it. You can stay away from them, but that's your racist and prejudicial narrow perspective. After all such a person is no longer a "Jamaican". Yaa maan? Their over all association, loyalty to the Pukhtoon nation is important. It is thus up to the collective Pukhtoon conscious whether to declare them as Pukhtoons or not.....which they will have to...for example, the "AFGHANS", are a sub offshoot of this phenomena, who are a mix mash of various differing groups. Pukhtoons in Afghanistan eventually came to the understanding that those non-Pukhtoons who are very different in looks and what not, are now as much as Afghans as the Pukhtoons are. The same way, if you were to establish a Pukhtoon nation, the same will apply. This is true for every nation on this planet today.

The mongoloid races of Asia are similar racial stock, but they are known by various different names i.e the Japanese, Chinese, Koreans, Vietnamese due to their unique LANGUAGES AND CULTURES etc.

Right, but Mongoloid people aren't too different in appearance. So lineage may not matter so much if people all look the same.

It's difficult to apply this to Afghanistan.

To sum it, language and culture plays a far greater role then lineage in defining a Pukhtoon. We don't have to worry about any Africans, or Jamaicans or Mongoloids declaring themselves to be Pukhtoons. Such hypothesis are based on irrational phobias.

It's not something to worry about.

So according to your definition anyone can be a Pashtun.

[roadrunner]

Dear Roadrunner you are touching on the topic which can piss off alot of people but also many do agree with you I would say majority of Pashtuns would love to agree with you to classify Pashtun as a race, and that is what you want right?.

A racial classification is a possibility if enough research is done.

But needless to say I would love to agree with you only if I was a pashtun as well. Cause Hey I wanna take some pride in this name "Pashtun". Unfortunately history does not tell everything, based on few facts as well as Folklore and non-Islam books we have learned that this "Time-frame" of these people called Pashtuns, does not go beyond 14th century.

3 reasons why.
a) They were mostly pro-Islamic/Mystic/sufi, and non-nationalists, perhaps a reminder that our first nationalist, and country loving person may Allah bless his sould was Pir Roshan. I am very founded of him and his work, I did some reason but due lack of my understanding of Pashtu I still have alot to learn.

b) The Language they spoke was considered "Haram" this is famous and well known amongst Dari poets who have read about an ancient language in Khorasan that was still strong, and itwas considered language of Hell. Educated Afghans are well aware that this was probably either 100 yeras after Khalfa Khalid's death or right during the time of early short lived Suri Dynasty king Amir Ghoror's era. Now Suri were a major power when Arabs attack Persia, Suri tribe was involved in killing Kousrow that made Arab job much easier. We know for the fact that from Palavi kufari history book which was translated by Ferdowsi combined with works of other Islamic Arab/Afghan/Balkhi historians that completed his book called "Shahnameh". According to Ferdowsi Suri tribe had full control of Khorasan and that a young Suri leader Mahey Suri came in power after death of his Father, and he killed king Khusrow, took his wealth as booty and land, ruled until he surrounded to Arabs. According to Arab sources Suri king was killed by men of Persian royal family and escape to Turkistan (Modern Tajikistan was known as Gates of Chin to Arabs). However according to Ferdowsi Mahey was killed by King of China who was a friend to Khosrow and revenge to his death. According to Zardastians Mayey Suri was a slave of Arabs and he sold his loyalty to Arabs just to rule and his death came after declined to be converted. So its hard to judge how powerful these Suri (Ghuri) tribes were. But I would strong enough that our Amir Ghoror might of been the grandson of Mahey Suri.

c) Continuous wars between Turkic Suljak, Shia Khawarizam and Mongolian invasion has really damaged the works of many historians and records are missing one example is history of Beyhaqi almost 80% of Islamic scholars agree that his Book has been touch aside from that from his original book pages are missing and that only 25% remained, somehow shoved in book shelves. My point is that either during Safivads or during Mongolian era when Shiism was at its peak in power but under Mongolian leaders. The great works of many Sunni scholars and poets have disappeared. Specially regarding Sunni rulers of Khorasan (Afghanistan), tribes as well as languages and cultural knowledge. We know for the fact from 3rd party sources specially Arabic sources who at older times might of copied sources from scholars and historians that was available to them at one time, something which today are no-where to be found and only remain writers names with great respect.

I'm not sure what you're saying here.

Is it that the word "Pashtun" fell out of usage after the 14th century?

Or that the Pashtuns didn't exist beyond the 14th century?

You can't go as far back to some BS claims of modern hindu, Aryan or some Chinki related modern turkic Theories or Islamic created, and Shia support myths of Jewish theories.

If a claim is BS, we certainly can look into it.

The pashtuns today speak a language that was not as same as 1300 years ago and the pashtun of 1300 Ad did not speak the same language as 500 AD pre-Islamic natives. Without Islamic era I can't even place a word "Pashtun" before Islam.

Yes, the language has changed a bit. It has a lineage also.

For all We know is that majority of Pashtu speaking tribes are Native if not 80% at least 60% of these tribes have been in Afghanistan before Cyrus's invasion. I can provide source of some of these tribes that are very much unproven by wikipedia LOL but well known to ancient Greeks and Bulgerians and other non-Afghans sources far before Islam, bearing almost the same name such as Apradas for Afridis or Pactyan for Paktiwals.

You're saying that the Pashtuns always were in Afghanistan?

I would say Pashtuns never invaded Afghanistan because they were always the natives fighting outsiders, being as native as Suri which I mentioned above or others. If you want Genetical prove of such migration and invasion I would say wash your hand on such BS because its not that easy to solve. I was reading somewhere where a genetic research proved that Green Afghan eyes was result of mutation were originally native of hindukush. Now here was it true or false. I have green eyes but not my daughter nor my brothers or my father or uncle, or mother, yes according to my grandfather as he remembers in young age my eyes looked like eyes of his grandfather "wow" is what I said to him. So just because few Afghans does have it does not mean we can claim half of Europe as Afghan and nor we can say that we are decendents of Europeans. Needless to say but Hindukush like environment also exists in some parts of Europe.

I don't think Afghans particularly want to claim Europe as their own.

Fighting off invaders all the time doesn't mean that Pashtuns didn't invade the area themselves.

They might not have invaded, just migrated.

They might not have invaded or migrated, just were there.

Why does genetics not help to know the answer to this?

My point we are not on the stage to go back to 6000 BCE and connect the Pashtuns. There is only one major reason. Tribal society does not last that long. Tribal society always brakes down

The tribal societies in Afghanistan and other places seem to have lasted quite a while, havent they?

[roadrunner]

most of you all ready covered wat i was going write...
i think the 2 main things for me is the lineage and the way you behave. you may be born a pakhtoon but if you dont behave like one then you might aswell give up on calling your self a pakhtoon.....

So anyone can be a Pashtun.

[roadrunner]

3 things constitute a Pashtun.

1)Lineage
2)Language
2)Following the code of life(Pashtunwali)which predates Islam.

Quite a harsh criteria there, would you give any flexibility to this definition?

[roadrunner]

The ability to overlook his own desire of wanting to live with a sexy blond over that of his sister's desire for wanting to continue studying passed 8th grade.
Aaaa! *ducks* please don't hit me! I wont speak again! I mean it!

LOL...I am going straight to hell, aint I?

You could always buy some hair color and a treadmill for someone you like

[roadrunner]

What constitutes a Pashtun?

Someone who is born to a Pashtun father. That is it. Point blank nothing more nothing less.

Everything else adds to being a practicing and cultural Pashtun.

So it's just someone who is born to Pashtun fathers.

So after 7 generations where Pashtun fathers fell for let's say some Nigerian women, we have a set of 50 African looking Pashtun kids.

Or let's say Chinese women, I feel i'm hyperfocusing on Jamaicans.

We have a set of 50 Chinese looking Pashtun kids.