How did the Turi, Bangash, & Orakzai become Shia?

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

So now people have to read ...

Isn't that what my post originally referred to? Why are you complaining now, you were worried about goal posts right? Yet you didn't meet the goal lol

[maneatinglizard]

But come on, the people who belong to a religious path that happens to be at odd with "sunni doctirne" also happen to be short, ugly and etc etc. That's a lot of confirmation bias. But I'm not here to challenge everyone doctrines, but people's mentality about it

Perhaps it's time to bury the hatchet because, as you said Iranian Power Structure comes and tries to stir up problems like wise Pakistani institutions supporting Talibs, Gulf Arab oil money spurring ISIS and Wahhabis. Pashtuns traditionally have never been hyper doctrinal zealots. Just basic practioners (sada musulman) simple devotees with strong mystical spirit. This over infatuation with murky doctrinal issues has been curdled by foreign political enterprise and we're playing patsy to to it.

Most of the issues people squabble over is based on things that are largely speculation, first hand accounts muddied in a sea of biased retellings. In truth no one really knows, so why should we have to constantly relive some conflict that happened 15 centuries ago?

A lot of the doctrinal issues aren't things that we can really "agree to disagree" on though. The Ithna Ashari opinion on the Sahaba is too far from the Sunni opinion as to be reconcilable. The other beliefs that people mention are often fringe (like the belief that the Quran is inauthentic), so I don't hold those against every Ithna `Ashari, except that even many of their moderate scholars are unwilling to completely reject those scholars who held beliefs of outright kufr. But I don't think we can easily bury the hatchet with people who mock the greatest Sahaba and call our scholars pedophiles. The every day Shi`i that rejects those things, and don't believe in any of the other offensive beliefs Ithna Ashari scholars have, I don't have an issue with. I've never hated a person simply because they were Shia, and in fact I've never had issues getting along with a Shia person. But if one of them comes to me and calls any of the Sahaba the nasty insults they use against them, I'm not going to be okay with it.

All the lives needlessly lost over it, families torn apart for it. Let's Focus on God the creator, the Essence of our Prophet's Teachings, which is Justice guided with Mercy. Social ethics. The most beautiful teachings of Nabi(saw) get ignored and the things he emphasized the least become battlegrounds. It's madness.

It might be easier said than done, but at some point it has to be done or we'll just turn into Iraq.

I don't see that happening in Afghanistan, and especially not among Pashtuns. The disputes in Afghanistan are ethnic, not religious. The Taliban had Shia allies, and Wahabis aren't strong enough in Afghanistan to cause issues with the Shia population. The Shia population itself is way too weak to cause many issues.

[maneatinglizard]

I can never trust a ****e 9/10ths of there religion is taqiya according to al kafi, the shia equivilant of Bukhari.

To be fair, al-Kafi isn't really like the Shia Bukhari. While it is their most important Hadith book, they do not consider it completely authentic. Their Hadith scholarship in general sucks compared to Sunni scholars, so their books are riddled with ahadith that their own scholars have deemed inauthentic. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't consider that taqiyah hadith authentic.

Twelvers are the only problem, zaidis don't curse the sahaba, there fiqh is pretty much the same as hanafis, if you saw a zaidi pray you would think he was a hanafi, only there theology is messed up with mutazali theology still strong amongst them, ismailis I could care less will probably be extinct by the end of the century along with the alawi who are not even considered shia by the twelvers.

Agreed. Ithna Asharis are the problem. If only Nadir Shah's Jafari movement was successful and he wasn't a crazy Genghis Khan wannabe that died too early for it to succeed lol.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

A lot of the doctrinal issues aren't things that we can really "agree to disagree" on though. The Ithna Ashari opinion on the Sahaba is too far from the Sunni opinion as to be reconcilable. The other beliefs that people mention are often fringe (like the belief that the Quran is inauthentic), so I don't hold those against every Ithna `Ashari, except that even many of their moderate scholars are unwilling to completely reject those scholars who held beliefs of outright kufr. But I don't think we can easily bury the hatchet with people who mock the greatest Sahaba and call our scholars pedophiles. The every day Shi`i that rejects those things, and don't believe in any of the other offensive beliefs Ithna Ashari scholars have, I don't have an issue with. I've never hated a person simply because they were Shia, and in fact I've never had issues getting along with a Shia person. But if one of them comes to me and calls any of the Sahaba the nasty insults they use against them, I'm not going to be okay with it.



I don't see that happening in Afghanistan, and especially not among Pashtuns. The disputes in Afghanistan are ethnic, not religious. The Taliban had Shia allies, and Wahabis aren't strong enough in Afghanistan to cause issues with the Shia population. The Shia population itself is way too weak to cause many issues.

The thing is, if we take an objective non-ideologically driven look at these "views" a lot of this was driven by groups with their own socio-politicla motives. What does any of that have to do with the focus of religion? Which is spirituality, ethics, morality, social justice, equity, and managing human welare.

I've never met or seen any officiailly endorsed mainstream Shi'i claim that the Qur'an is inauthentic; this is something I see usually cherry picked by DarulIfta or a Deobandi affiliated resources, based on narrations Shi'i themselves may not endorse as authentic, and at that they're siphoned to convey a certain impression to the audience.

Most of the Taqiyyah stuff is conspiratorial misbranding. The Shi'i have the same standard of taqiyyah as we do, that under durress it is ok to deny one's faith to protect from persecution or danger.



If you notice MOST of the Ahl al-Sunnah Wal Jama'ah accept Shi'i as Muslims, their divergence of views is not significant enough to warrant them outside of Islam. So claims that they disbelieve in the Qur'an are simply not factual. Even Wahhabiyyah are not outside the fold of Islam. It's very hard to become a kafir in Islam.

As for Afghanistan, turmoil has already been unleashed, just not to the same degree as Iraq and Syria, where due to their historical significance have become a hotbed for this stuff. That doesn't mean it can't or won't snowball.

Saudi/Gulf Aristocracy and Iranian Power Elite's agenda are focused on stirring turmoil.

[Kakar-Wardak]

To be fair, al-Kafi isn't really like the Shia Bukhari. While it is their most important Hadith book, they do not consider it completely authentic. Their Hadith scholarship in general sucks compared to Sunni scholars, so their books are riddled with ahadith that their own scholars have deemed inauthentic. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't consider that taqiyah hadith authentic.



Agreed. Ithna Asharis are the problem. If only Nadir Shah's Jafari movement was successful and he wasn't a crazy Genghis Khan wannabe that died too early for it to succeed lol.

Iranians and Southern Iraqis were converted to twelver Shiaism by a safavid sword, I don't know how the hazara became shia but probably under a safavid sword.

But in general I Would say Iranians are not really Hardcore shia, many of them convert to Christianity in europe, Deep down they know that twelver beliefs make no sense, only the uneducated shia of Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan are zealots.

[toughpashtun]

Twelvers are the only problem, zaidis don't curse the sahaba, there fiqh is pretty much the same as hanafis, if you saw a zaidi pray you would think he was a hanafi, only there theology is messed up with mutazali theology still strong amongst them, ismailis I could care less will probably be extinct by the end of the century along with the alawi who are not even considered shia by the twelvers.

Most of the Shias around the world are actually Twelvers (85% overall according to a quick google search).The Shias in Iran, Pakistan , Afghanistan are all Twelver with small Ismaili communities.
The Ismaili and similar groups such as the Syrian Alawi also have pretty messed up beliefs though , worse than the Twelvers I would say.
The Zaidis , which as you mentioned are closest to Sunnis , are actually a small minority and I think they are only found in Yemen presently.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

Most of the Shias around the world are actually Twelvers (85% overall according to a quick google search).The Shias in Iran, Pakistan , Afghanistan are all Twelver with small Ismaili communities.
The Ismaili and similar groups such as the Syrian Alawi also have pretty messed up beliefs though , worse than the Twelvers I would say.
The Zaidis , which as you mentioned are closest to Sunnis , are actually a small minority and I think they are only found in Yemen presently.

Correct, Zaidis are historical rulers of North Yemen.