Tajiks, Farsiwan, and Persianized Pashtuns

[Samandri]

You're probably right regarding the roots of the word. I was just saying that Afghan was the word that Persians used for Pashtuns. They called us "Afghan" instead of the word Pashtun historically.

Thats totally incorrect. Even if we go by the legends, there is tradition of Afghana son of King Saul of Bani Israel. Also most of the historical sources which mentions word 'Afghan', are not from Persia.

The question mark is actually on word "Pashtun".......this word is probably younger than Afghan

[Samandri]

Firdousi is making himself look dumb because actually in all Iranian languages including Farsi, Pashto etc the letter ف was introduced after Islam. In Arabic there is no پ, so they called the language فارسی instead of پارسی. There are a few letters which only exist in Iranian languages because of Arabic influence. Letters like ق ظ ض etc were not part of these languages originally and are only included in the alphabet so we can pronounce the words borroweed from Arabic in our languages properly.

Reference from any book or linguist for your claim?

[Afghanfootball]

Pashtun is derived from Pakhta. While Afghan is derived from Aspagan most likely. Considering how important Aspa is in Ariana/Bactrian history Afghan could also be derived from the Aspa ruling families of Balkh. Though thats a very out there theory just throwing it out there.

[Shapur]

Reference from any book or linguist for your claim?

I know wikipedia is not a reliable source for academic discussions but it should suffice in this case and there are references at the bottom, here is an excerpt from the article

[QUOTEMany Arabic letters represent sounds not present in Persian; they are typically only employed in loanwords and native Persian sounds replace them, such as ذ ص, ض, ط and ظ all being pronounced the same as historical zayn ز z.][/QUOTE]

Persian alphabet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

One for Pashto

ق ف ع ظ ط ض ص ح ﺫ ث appear only in loanwords which are mostly of Arabic origin.

Pashto language, alphabet and pronunciation

Have you noticed how Arabs pronoun e ق properly with the back of their throats while Pashtuns and others who use this letter pronounce it almost same as ک. We also pronounce ط as ت compared to Arabs who pronounce it properly as it makes a difference in their language.

[Sarbani]

Merely an assumption

Can you name a single Pashto word that is not a loanword that is written with ﻑ?

[Sarbani]

Thats totally incorrect. Even if we go by the legends, there is tradition of Afghana son of King Saul of Bani Israel. Also most of the historical sources which mentions word 'Afghan', are not from Persia.

The question mark is actually on word "Pashtun".......this word is probably younger than Afghan

So you're saying that Afghan is an endonym and not an exonym?

The King Saul and Bani Israel thing is 100% false. Afghan is most likely related to an Old Persian word meaning "horse-rider". I've never seen any old Persian sources use the term Pashtun.

Either way, Pashtuns in their language called themselves Pashtun, which is a more ancient name that has roots in with Paktya/Pakhta. The oldest Pashtun scripts all use the term Pashto and Pashtun, not Afghan and Afghani.

[Firdousi]

Moron , alphabet ف exist in Pashto

Adopted recently because Persian and Indian influence. Pashto has no "f" thats why most of Pashtuns I have come across specially those from Eastern provinces are unable to pronounce it. They say "Apganistan" lol

BTW no need to get personal. We are brothers, dude.

[Firdousi]

Firdousi is making himself look dumb because actually in all Iranian languages including Farsi, Pashto etc the letter ف was introduced after Islam. In Arabic there is no پ, so they called the language فارسی instead of پارسی. There are a few letters which only exist in Iranian languages because of Arabic influence. Letters like ق ظ ض etc were not part of these languages originally and are only included in the alphabet so we can pronounce the words borroweed from Arabic in our languages properly.

You are wrong. Just because Pars was changed into Fars by Arabs does not mean "f" did not exist before Arabs. Have ever heard the name "Phraates"? It was an old Persian name.

You are wrong, buddy.

[Samandri]

So you're saying that Afghan is an endonym and not an exonym?

The King Saul and Bani Israel thing is 100% false. Afghan is most likely related to an Old Persian word meaning "horse-rider". I've never seen any old Persian sources use the term Pashtun.

Either way, Pashtuns in their language called themselves Pashtun, which is a more ancient name that has roots in with Paktya/Pakhta. The oldest Pashtun scripts all use the term Pashto and Pashtun, not Afghan and Afghani.

How you came to the conclusion that Pashtun is derived from word Pakht?. The Kheen Pashto is dialectal modification of original Pashto, and its age iss not millennium or more. Point out the names of these oldest Pashto scripts which use term Pashtun (patta khazana doesnt count).

Your claim , that word Afghan is word from Persia for Pashtuns, that it is exonym.......is incorrect. Ibn-i-Batuta was not Iranian and we see him using the word for those in present day Afghanistan, and he also gives details about rebellion of Afghan chiefs in India, its not that Iranians told him that these people are Afghans. Also check the court histories of Ghazni, of Utbi and Bayhaqi, it doesnt make sense them using term Afghan for people living in and around Ghazni. Moreover what got into Akhund Darweza to use the term Afghan. Also Babur was not an Iranian, and in his Baburnama, which is in Chaughtai Turki, he mention Pashtuns as Afghans.....his interactions with Afghan tribes was deep and one of his wife was an Afghan.......his Afghan wife, Bibi Mubaraka, must be refereeing to herself as an Afghan.


Putting word Afghan in the same category as Pathan, is simply outrageous.

[Afghanfootball]

How you came to the conclusion that Pashtun is derived from word Pakht?. The Kheen Pashto is dialectal modification of original Pashto, and its age iss not millennium or more. Point out the names of these oldest Pashto scripts which use term Pashtun (patta khazana doesnt count).

Your claim , that word Afghan is word from Persia for Pashtuns, that it is exonym.......is incorrect. Ibn-i-Batuta was not Iranian and we see him using the word for those in present day Afghanistan, and he also gives details about rebellion of Afghan chiefs in India, its not that Iranians told him that these people are Afghans. Also check the court histories of Ghazni, of Utbi and Bayhaqi, it doesnt make sense them using term Afghan for people living in and around Ghazni. Moreover what got into Akhund Darweza to use the term Afghan. Also Babur was not an Iranian, and in his Baburnama, which is in Chaughtai Turki, he mention Pashtuns as Afghans.....his interactions with Afghan tribes was deep and one of his wife was an Afghan.......his Afghan wife, Bibi Mubaraka, must be refereeing to herself as an Afghan.


Putting word Afghan in the same category as Pathan, is simply outrageous.

Im not a linguist but considering that all the anceint east aryan languages (Bactrian, Avesta, Sogdian) all had the kh sound in some words I find it hard to believe SH came before KH. But even if it did whos to say that the northern KH and southern SH divide hasnt taken place. Pakhtiukes are mentioned to be inbetween Bakhtar and Gandhara while another group called Parsyetae are mentioned to be living in the Paropamisus and Arachosia (pretty much the Sulaiman mts)

[Samandri]

Im not a linguist but considering that all the anceint east aryan languages (Bactrian, Avesta, Sogdian) all had the kh sound in some words I find it hard to believe SH came before KH. But even if it did whos to say that the northern KH and southern SH divide hasnt taken place. Pakhtiukes are mentioned to be inbetween Bakhtar and Gandhara while another group called Parsyetae are mentioned to be living in the Paropamisus and Arachosia (pretty much the Sulaiman mts)

Seems to me Pakhtiuke etc has some thing to do with Loya Paktiya region, than with all Pashtun people.

[Samandri]

Can you name a single Pashto word that is not a loanword that is written with ﻑ?

Pure Pashto word with fay which is not present in Farsi and Arabic? no, its only used in loanwords. We Pashtuns do interchange fey with pay, but the fact remains that this alphabet exists in Pashto, Pashto is incomplete without loanwords. You might argue that it discredits word "Afghan", but in very early sources 'Afghan' appear as 'Abghan'.....and term may not be exactly Afghan, but Awghan. Timur and Babur have used words "Awghans" for Afghan

[Afghanfootball]

Seems to me Pakhtiuke etc has some thing to do with Loya Paktiya region, than with all Pashtun people.

Would make sense considering they are even called Pactyans. However their land is supposed to be located in the vicinity of Gandhara.

[Sarbani]

Would make sense considering they are even called Pactyans. However their land is supposed to be located in the vicinity of Gandhara.

The land of the Paktyans was known as both Arachosia and Paktya, and it included not only all of Gandhara, but nearly all modern Pashtun lands with its capital being Kandahar during the Greek era.

[Sarbani]

How you came to the conclusion that Pashtun is derived from word Pakht?.

My hypothesis was based on it sounding similar to Pakhta, which was the name for the ethnicity that lived in the territory inhabited by Pashtuns today in the Vedas. Also, the ethnicity of the people there was Paktyan, which sounds similar to both Pakhto and Pakhta. If the term Pashtun has nothing to do with either of those, then where did it come from?

The Kheen Pashto is dialectal modification of original Pashto, and its age iss not millennium or more.

What makes you so sure the southern dialect is the original one?

Point out the names of these oldest Pashto scripts which use term Pashtun (patta khazana doesnt count).

I did some searching and found that Khushal Khan Khattak used the term Afghan so you may be right, but there could have been others that used the term Pashtun, especially considering that they all called their language Pashto instead of Afghani (Pashto has the same etymology as Pashtun) and many Pashtun leaders such as Ahmad Shah Abdali called their land Pashtunkhwa.

Your claim , that word Afghan is word from Persia for Pashtuns, that it is exonym.......is incorrect. Ibn-i-Batuta was not Iranian and we see him using the word for those in present day Afghanistan, and he also gives details about rebellion of Afghan chiefs in India, its not that Iranians told him that these people are Afghans. Also check the court histories of Ghazni, of Utbi and Bayhaqi, it doesnt make sense them using term Afghan for people living in and around Ghazni. Moreover what got into Akhund Darweza to use the term Afghan. Also Babur was not an Iranian, and in his Baburnama, which is in Chaughtai Turki, he mention Pashtuns as Afghans.....his interactions with Afghan tribes was deep and one of his wife was an Afghan.......his Afghan wife, Bibi Mubaraka, must be refereeing to herself as an Afghan.

It was a name started by Persians (or maybe Indians) and then continued by outsiders. Similarly, India was a name started by people that lived in the parts of Asia west of India and then continued by outsiders (Europeans, Africans, etc.).

Pure Pashto word with fay which is not present in Farsi and Arabic? no, its only used in loanwords. We Pashtuns do interchange fey with pay, but the fact remains that this alphabet exists in Pashto, Pashto is incomplete without loanwords. You might argue that it discredits word "Afghan", but in very early sources 'Afghan' appear as 'Abghan'.....and term may not be exactly Afghan, but Awghan. Timur and Babur have used words "Awghans" for Afghan

Abghan was indeed used before Afghan was, but to make the case for it being the original endonym, you have to be able to prove its etymology to be of Pashto origin. All the proposed etymological roots for the word Afghan that I have seen have given it a foreign origin.