Did the Abdalis choose to side with Safavid Shiite Iranians agains Ghiljay rulers

[Samandri]

I am asking you, what does it mean he possessed kiramat?

I am asking you a personal question, do you believe human beings can have super natural powers?

I didnt say any where that Pir Sabir Shah possessed Kiramat. I explained to you why exactly he was perceived as magician by the governor of Lahore, as Sufi saints had reputation of possessing Kiramat. If he had such powers, he would not have been killed in that manner.

My personal beliefs: I do not believe in Awlia possessing miraculous kiramat as mentioned in the books about them. Now lets come back to my question, what are your feelings about Abdali regarding his relationship with this "mushrik" malang?

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

I didnt say any where that Pir Sabir Shah possessed Kiramat. I explained to you why exactly he was perceived as magician by the governor of Lahore, as Sufi saints had reputation of possessing Kiramat. If he had such powers, he would not have been killed in that manner.

My personal beliefs: I do not believe in Awlia possessing miraculous kiramat as mentioned in the books about them. Now lets come back to my question, what are your feelings about Abdali regarding his relationship with this "mushrik" malang?

The question I am asking you is related to the question you are asking me.

So be patient and bare with me. If you don't believe awliya possess miraclous kiramat, do you negate the existence of kiramat of awliya entirely? Or do you believe they may perform miracles but they don't possess super powers?

If the latter is your believe, do you believe Allah bestows his special devoted worshipers with special abilities during extra ordinary times only? Or do you believe such people can use super powers whenever they wish?

If you answer my questions, I will give you my answer about the retationship of Ahmad Shah with the Pir.

[Samandri]

The question I am asking you is related to the question you are asking me.

So be patient and bare with me. If you don't believe awliya possess miraclous kiramat, do you negate the existence of kiramat of awliya entirely? Or do you believe they may perform miracles but they don't possess super powers?

If the latter is your believe, do you believe Allah bestows his special devoted worshipers with special abilities during extra ordinary times only? Or do you believe such people can use super powers whenever they wish?

If you answer my questions, I will give you my answer about the retationship of Ahmad Shah with the Pir.

Frankly speaking i have never thought much about these matters, i do believe that Allah show his miracles to his creatures. When i read the stories about these Awlia, they seem fabrications, some of them are even said to bring dead alive (as said about lal Shahbaz Qalandar), this was a miracle of a Prophet, believing him would be bringing him on par with prophet Isa. Compare their biographies with Sahaba, i find them very normal human beings. Why Sahaba didnt possess such Kiramat but these Awlia of lower status did?.

The Tablighis also have habit of spreading super-natural stories about themselves and i find myself at odds with them on this. Not that i am a disbeliever about miracles from Allah, but i think some Muslims are very desperate to prove their truthfulness about Islam and some of them resort to false stories of supernatural.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

Frankly speaking i have never thought much about these matters, i do believe that Allah show his miracles to his creatures. When i read the stories about these Awlia, they seem fabrications, some of them are even said to bring dead alive (as said about lal Shahbaz Qalandar), this was a miracle of a Prophet, believing him would be bringing him on par with prophet Isa. Compare their biographies with Sahaba, i find them very normal human beings. Why Sahaba didnt possess such Kiramat but these Awlia of lower status did?.

The Tablighis also have habit of spreading super-natural stories about themselves and i find myself at odds with them on this. Not that i am a disbeliever about miracles from Allah, but i think some Muslims are very desperate to prove their truthfulness about Islam and some of them resort to false stories of supernatural.

In that case, you are a wahhabi. Because if I am a wahhabi for having the same beliefs regarding these matters, then so are you.

Thanks for clarifying that.

I almost forgot! If Ahmad Shah Abdali's pir claimed to possess super natural powers and if he visited shrines to worship the dead, then yes he was a kaafir for being mureed of such people.

From what I have learned in this thread, there is no evidence to prove his pir actually claimed to be a magician, neither is it mentioned that he went to ask the shrines for sustenance etc. So I can't say if they are mushrik or not. Maybe misguided, but not mushrik.

[Samandri]

In that case, you are a wahhabi. Because if I am a wahhabi for having the same beliefs regarding these matters, then so are you.

Thanks for clarifying that.

I almost forgot! If Ahmad Shah Abdali's pir claimed to possess super natural powers and if he visited shrines to worship the dead, then yes he was a kaafir for being mureed of such people.

From what I have learned in this thread, there is no evidence to prove his pir actually claimed to be a magician, neither is it mentioned that he went to ask the shrines for sustenance etc. So I can't say if they are mushrik or not. Maybe misguided, but not mushrik.

Well i associate Wahabi movement more specifically with Takfir, moreover i am not a ghair-muqalid.

Not much is known about the practices of that Malang. But he was the type who wander around. The story goes that he met Ahmad Khan Abdali when the latter was merely a boy. Pir looked at his forehead and predicated that he would become a King.

Another religious aspect of Abdali,

Though Ahmad Shah Abdali was not associated with Shah Waliullah Dehlwi. But his ally , Najib Khan Yusufzaey titled Najib-ud-daula, the Prime minister of Mughal empire was a follower of Shah Waliullah (also note that Deoband is located in Saharanpur which was capital of Najib-ud-daula's vast territories). Shah Waliullah was patron of Indian Afghans and it is said that though Najib-ud-daula (some say he wrote a direct letter to Abdali) he invited Abdali against Marathas. This aspect is emphasized by Pakistani authors when they write about Shah Waliullah. If its true then it gives extra importance to the military campaigns of Abdali against domination of Marathas in Northern India. Indian muslims saw him as a savior, it is written. This must be true as East India company reported in 1798 that the indian muslims in their houses celebrated and lightened candles when they heard of the news that Shah zaman Durrani, Ahmad's grandson, is invading India to assist Tipu Sultan, that people were expecting him to repeat his grandfather's deed. It is evident that Hindi muslims saw him as a saviour.


Moreover he always rushed to the occasion, whenever Sikh bands would plunder and kill muslims in Punjab.

[Samandri]

Last year i made an attempt and compiled some info about Ahmad Shah Abdali's dealing with Qing China who had occupied Eastern Turkistan.

Ahmad Shah Durrani against Qing China


Ahmad Shah Durrani was attempting to form alliance of muslim Central Asian khanates and Kazaks in order to mount military campaign against the Qing expansion into Central Asia. The powerful Muslim ruler was upset at the murder of Muslim saints, the Kashghar Khojas[1]. According to the report of Valikhanov, such Central Asian rulers as Irdana of Khokand and Tashkent, Fadil Bi of Khojent and Uratepe, and a Sultan of the Kazaks, had earlier sent a letter to Ahmad Shah to ask him "to deliver the Muslim world from attack of non-believers". In the spring of 1763 Afghan troops were deployed in the area between Khokand and Tashkent, and Ahmad shah dispatched letters to many leaders of Islamic countries urging them to join in the holy war. According to Valikhanov this provoked at least one revolt in 1765 in a town called Ush within Kashgharia itself where Muslims had risen with expectation of receiving help from the wider Muslim world.

This plan for a coordinated attack against Qing territory also appears in Russian records. According to their reports , Irdana had sent letter to Kazak sultan, Ablai, notifying him that Ahmad shah's emissary has arrived in Khokand with a message that Ahmad Shah has agreed to aid Khokand in case of a Qing attack. A merchant from Khojent who visited Orenburg in January 1764 informed the Russians that Ahmad Shah has concentrated one hundred thousand troops to the north of Kandahar in case of war against Qing.The Qing court received similar reports about such military movement in Central Asia.[2]. In Kashghar troops were also ready for expedition against Afghanistan.[3]



Qianlong Ahmad Shah Abdali was by far the strongest regional force when the Qing conquered eastern Turkistan and his activities received in Beijing. close scrutiny sent a letter to the Qing court in 1762 demanding it withdraw from Muslim territories, and, when this ultimatum was rejected, began to assemble a huge invasion force. Central asian and Qing sources agree that in late 1762, Ahmad shah of Afghanistan sent an embassy to Beijing with a letter. The Afghan letter stated that "Maratha khan (probably the Maratha Peshwa) had amassed force of several hundred thousands troops to respond to his own seizure of Delhi. When they heard that he was approaching, however, they fled into the fortress of Panipat. After six month siege, Ahmad shah defeated them, killing over a hundred thousand."...This had overtones of a veiled threat.[4]


The Afghan envoy presented the emperor with four splendid horses [5] but failed to make the good impression because he refuse to perform Kowtow[6]. The Qianlong emperor dispatched a letter to Afghan ruler instructing him on folly of war with the reminder that he, the Qainlong emperor, is "lord of all under heaven who watches over every thing inside and outside the empire, and who rewards good and punishes evil".[7]


Ahmad Shah of Afghanistan massed his troops and corresponded with other Central Asian rulers to raise a united resistance. These efforts came to naught When Qing appeared content to stop at Pamirs. but Ahmad shah , in alliance with Bukhara, invaded Badakhshan, killing its ruler Sultan Shah for betraying two Khoja brothers Burhan ud din and Khoja Jahan [8] to the Qing and dispatched his head to the Qing authorities in Xinjiang.[9]


The Afghan envoy to Beijing presented the Qing emperor with four splendid horses.Milanese Jesuit missionary artist Giuseppe Castiglione (Lang Shinin in pinyin) painted the horses for the Qing emperor by the in the 18th century. The original paintings of the Afghan steeds are kept at the National Palace Museum in Taiwan.[4]







Notes and References:

1. Khoja, a Persian word literally meaning 'master', was used in Central Asia as a title of the descendants of the noted Central Asian Naqshbandi Sufi teacher, Ahmad Kasani (1461�1542) or others in the Naqshbandi intellectual lineage prior to Baha al-din Naqshband. The most powerful religious figure in the late Timurid era was the Naqshbandi Shaykh Khwaja Ahrar. The Khojas often played, or aspired to play, ruling roles in the Altishahr or present day region of Tarim Basin in Xinjiang, China.

2. Holy War in China: The Muslim Rebellion and State in Chinese Central Asia by Hodong Kim, page-20-21.

3. The Empire And the Khanate: A Political History of Qing Relations with With Khoqand C1760-1860 By L. J. Newby , page-35

4. From Frontier Policy to Foreign Policy: The Question of India and the Transformation of Geopolitics in Qing China by Matthew Mosca, page-75

5. Beurdeley , Giuseppe Castiglione, p.120-2, 167-8

6. Kneel and touch the ground with the forehead in worship or submission as part of Chinese custom.

7. The Empire And the Khanate: A Political History of Qing Relations With Khoqand C1760-1860 byL. J. Newby, page-35

8 . The two brothers rebelled against their Oirat and subsequently Qing dynasty Chinese overlords. But were eventually driven out of the region to Badakhshan where the ruler Sultan Shah killed them both. Kashghar was annexed as an integral part of the Chinese Empire under the Provincial Governor of Ili (region around Ili River)

9. Eurasian Crossroads: A History of Xinjiang - James A. Millward, page.109-110

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

Well i associate Wahabi movement with Takfir, moreover i am not a ghair-muqalid.

Not much is known about the practices of that Malang. But he was the type who wander around. The story goes that he met Ahmad Khan Abdali when the latter was merely a boy. Pir looked at his forehead and predicated that he would become a King.

Another religious aspect of Abdali,

Though Ahmad Shah Abdali was not associated with Shah Waliullah Dehlwi. But his ally , Najib Khan Yusufzaey titled Najib-ud-daula, the Prime minister of Mughal empire was a follower of Shah Waliullah (also note that Deoband is located in Saharanpur which was capital of Najib-ud-daula's vast territories). Shah Waliullah was patron of Indian Afghans and it is said that though Najib-ud-daula (some say he wrote a direct letter to Abdali) he invited Abdali against Marathas. This aspect is emphasized by Pakistani authors when they write about Shah Waliullah. If its true then it gives extra importance to the military campaigns of Abdali against domination of Marathas in Northern India. Indian muslims saw him as a savior, it is written. This must be true as East India company reported in 1798 that the indian muslims in their houses celebrated and lightened candles when they heard of the news that Shah zaman Durrani, Ahmad's grandson, is invading India to assist Tipu Sultan, that people were expecting him to repeat his grandfather's deed. It is evident that Hindi muslims saw him as a saviour.


Moreover he always rushed to the occasion, whenever Sikh bands would plunder and kill muslims in Punjab.

Have you read my previous thread about Ahmed Shah Abdali's religious beliefs?


Also, what do you mean with "takfeer"?

And if you are not "ghair muqallid", does that make you a muqallid? If you are a muqallid, do you also make taqleed in takfeer? So if a Abu Hanifa makes takfeer of a particular individual, do you also make takfeer?

[Samandri]

From historic accounts, we know that Ahmed Shah Abdali was a fighter in the Shiite Safavid army. Was it because Abdalis choose to support Rawaafidh in order to defeat Ghiljay?

Lets stick to your original question.

When i get the time , i will write up about Ahmad Shah's dealing with Ghilzai tribes, their role in his empire, after his ascension to the throne.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

Lets stick to your original question.

When i get the time , i will write up about Ahmad Shah's dealing with Ghilzai tribes, their role in his empire, after his ascension to the throne.

You keep bringing my religious beliefs into this but when I ask you politely about yours you rather stick to the topic?

Please do discuss his relationship with Ghilji.

[Samandri]

You keep bringing my religious beliefs into this but when I ask you politely about yours you rather stick to the topic?

Please do discuss his relationship with Ghilji.

I sufficiently provided my personal views within the context , digging beyond further was going way too much off-topic so i politely reminded you that the thread is not about me. Don get vindictive You are behaving like that @khushal.

You are offended that i tied your sectarian question with your wahabi roots. Whatever i said any thing about Wahabi, it was within the context of your question....you proved me right when you did analyze Abdali though Wahabi lenses in subsequent posts. Ask me neutral historical question, i would answer in neutral manner. Ask me a question tainted with sectarian bias, expect me to address that.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

You are avoiding questions. I wonder why.

[Samandri]

Its obvious that you are not interested in learning about history of Ahmad Shah Abdali. I shared interesting and relevant info to your original question about his dealings with Qing China and his stand and support for central asian muslims. But you have no comments on it , instead you are driven by vindictive feelings and want to discuss my views on kiramat etc to remind me that you took offense by describing the wahabi nature of your question.

All you are interested in, is to point out the negatives in Abdali's history from Wahabi perspective. It can be surely discussed academically, but you are disinterested in positive points of Abdali from religious perspective which are not aligned with wahabism. He was not a mullah or pir faqeer but a badshah, so analyze him as a badshah or a military general. Whatever he was, he was not a deviant Kharji on one extreme or half-hindu like Akbar on other extreme.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

Dude, if you share information I have no previous knowledge of, you shouldn't expect me to comment on it. I read it. If that's what you want to know.

[Samandri]

You are avoiding questions. I wonder why.

I actually wrote few lines to your question about Takfeer and Taqleed, but i realized that i already expressed my views on it with you on another thread (in which you explained Takfir to me). I stopped writing and skipped posting it, because i sensed that you are in revenge mode and it is purely your ego issue. Dont go that way Sir, whatever respect i have for you, would evaporate, dont behave like @khushal or else i wont be respectful to you.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

Personally, I won't feel any better or worse if I find out Ahmed Shah was a kaafir. Since I am not a nationalist, it doesn't really bother me. What I do want to know is how his religion influenced politics.

You mentioned that Nadir was a Sunni. That pretty much puts an end to this thread. Because everything I said in the OP are answered.

So I have nothing to say. But since you discussed religion, I felt like continuing on another subject.

But hey, if it bothers you so much, it's okay. We can talk about something you are more comfortable with.