Did the Abdalis choose to side with Safavid Shiite Iranians agains Ghiljay rulers

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

From historic accounts, we know that Ahmed Shah Abdali was a fighter in the Shiite Safavid army. Was it because Abdalis choose to support Rawaafidh in order to defeat Ghiljay?

[Samandri]

From historic accounts, we know that Ahmed Shah Abdali was a fighter in the Shiite Safavid army. Was it because Abdalis choose to support Rawaafidh in order to defeat Ghiljay?

Nope, Ahmad Shah Abdali was not a fighter in the Safavid Army. He was commander in the Afsharid army. There is big difference. Nadir Shah Afshar was a Sunni, in fact he created resentment among his Shia officers by favoring Sunni Afghans and Uzbeks. This and some other factors ultimately led to his assassinations at the hands of his Shia officers.In one incident , Nadir Shah, on occasion of wedding of his son with Aurangzeb Alamgir's granddaughter in India, 15 to 20 Qizalbash soldiers of his danced and sang Marthia of Hussain in Turki. Nadir Shah , on learning of this, was greatly angered, saying "For several years i have given orders forbidding ta'zias and threnodies ...these soldiers have disregarded the Quran and traditions and have not observed the festival of my son's wedding , there is no remedy for this save death. Next day these men were executed outside one of the gate of Delhi and their bodies were left there for months. (Lockhart, "Nadir Shah", page- 151)

Keep in mind that Nadir Shah had to first thoroughly defeat Abdalis before going against Ghilzais who were occupying Persia. Abdalis submitted to him after defeat, but shortly rebelled again due which they were deported to Iranian Khorasan (Mashad, Nishapur etc). As already pointed out on this forum, there were even thousands of Ghilzais in the service of nadir shah, one of whom, Azad Khan, made a name for himself by emerging as a strong contender for throne in Post-nadir Shah's death civil war. The Tokhis, sub-tribe of ghilzais, sided with Nadir Shah against Hotaks when he invaded Kandahar in 1738. (Hussain Hotak had massacred large number of Tokhis in an ambush near Arghandab, the details about it would lengthen the most un-necessarily)

I know why you are asking this question, you are a Wahabi. I surely corrected you But dont get disappointed. Ahmad Shah Abdali was mureed of Pir Sabir Shah, a Sufi saint, who belonged to Lahore and was the one who placed throne on his head. Moreover the news of killings of Khoja Sufis in Kashghar at the hands of Qing Chinese greatly enraged Ahmad Shah and he was ready to war with China, and demonstrated this by conquering Badakhsahn which was ally of Qing China. Moreover he was keeping units of Shia Qizalbash soldiers in his army. So Abdali was a Kafir and Mushrik from Wahabi perspective, so were all Pashtuns at that time......

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

Nope, Ahmad Shah Abdali was not a fighter in the Safavid Army. He was commander in the Afsharid army. There is big difference. Nadir Shah Afshar was a Sunni, in fact he created resentment among his Shia officers by favoring Sunni Afghans and Uzbeks. This and some other factors ultimately led to his assassinations at the hands of his Shia officers.In one incident , Nadir Shah, on occasion of wedding of his son with Aurangzeb Alamgir's granddaughter in India, 15 to 20 Qizalbash soldiers of his danced and sang Marthia of Hussain in Turki. Nadir Shah , on learning of this, was greatly angered, saying "For several years i have given orders forbidding ta'zias and threnodies ...these soldiers have disregarded the Quran and traditions and have not observed the festival of my son's wedding , there is no remedy for this save death. Next day these men were executed outside one of the gate of Delhi and their bodies were left there for months. (Lockhart, "Nadir Shah", page- 151)

Keep in mind that Nadir Shah had to first thoroughly defeat Abdalis before going against Ghilzais who were occupying Persia. Abdalis submitted to him after defeat, but shortly rebelled again due which they were deported to Iranian Khorasan (Mashad, Nishapur etc). As already pointed out on this forum, there were even thousands of Ghilzais in the service of nadir shah, one of whom, Azad Khan, made a name for himself by emerging as a strong contender for throne in Post-nadir Shah's death civil war. The Tokhis, sub-tribe of ghilzais, sided with Nadir Shah against Hotaks when he invaded Kandahar in 1738. (Hussain Hotak had massacred large number of Tokhis in an ambush near Arghandab, the details about it would lengthen the most un-necessarily)

I know why you are asking this question, you are a Wahabi. I surely corrected you But dont get disappointed. Ahmad Shah Abdali was mureed of Pir Sabir Shah, a Sufi saint, who belonged to Lahore and was the one who placed throne on his head. Moreover the news of killings of Khoja Sufis in Kashghar at the hands of Qing Chinese greatly enraged Ahmad Shah and he was ready to war with China, and demonstrated this by conquering Badakhsahn which was ally of Qing China. Moreover he was keeping units of Shia Qizalbash soldiers in his army. So Abdali was a Kafir and Mushrik from Wahabi perspective, so were all Pashtuns at that time......

A piece of advice:

I admire you for your efforts to document Pashtun history. Unlike most members of PF, you are one of few who is trying to do something useful.

But you have a major weakness. You tend to respond as an emotional teenager. You use the same tactics as secular nationalists here.

Instead, I suggest you address issues as an academic. Don't resport to childish vitriol.

A good academic and a scholar is the one who is able to address the most contentious and controversial issues by focusing on the facts and discussing them professionally without expressing personal opinion and emotion.

By saying that, I don't claim I am as calm and composed as I should be. But I strive to be as much as I can. Even when I talk to people for whom I have contempt.

On topic:

I haven't studied history like you have. I don't know as much as you do. You just thought me something: Nadir Shah was not a Shiite. I didn't know that.

There are many things we can learn from one another. Thank you.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

I do have some reservations. I do believe Ahmad Shah Abdali made a mistake by empowering Ismaili's and other non-Muslims during his reign. I also believe Abdali's have always sided with anti-Muslim powers in the region in order to suppress Ghiljay.

Maybe it is due to my religious bliefs, maybe it is due to my ghiljay background. But I do tend to consider Abdali as a treacherous tribe against what I consider "our" interests. Be it a Sunni Muslim interest or, common interest of all Pashtuns.

I am critical of the official narrative in our history books of a glorious Pashtun dynasty of Abdalis. A public forum is therefore, an expelllent platform for people like me to pose controversial questions.

People who disagree should be able to counter me by sharing what they know about history.

If we all hold ourselves back and avoid talking about these matters, we won't change our views and beliefs.

One of the biggest problems of primitive people is that they don't like to see their beliefs being challenged by others.

If we dont want to be considered as primitive and stupid people, we should be able to discuss everything.

[Samandri]

There are many things we can learn from one another. Thank you.

You are welcome. What are your views about that malang Pir Sabir Shah?

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

You are welcome. What are your views about that malang Pir Sabir Shah?

I don't know much about him. Tell me.

[randolph85]

Nadir Shah from what I have read was not religious but was culturally Sunni and wanted Persia to shy away from the Shia faith as it would be difficult for him to incorporate Sunni territories into a Shia empire.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

Nadir Shah from what I have read was not religious but was culturally Sunni and wanted Persia to shy away from the Shia faith as it would be difficult for him to incorporate Sunni territories into a Shia empire.

That makes sense. Even historically, Iran wasn't a shiite region. In fact, prior to Sasavid invasion, Iran was the centre of Sunni Islam.

[Samandri]

I do have some reservations. I do believe Ahmad Shah Abdali made a mistake by empowering Ismaili's and other non-Muslims during his reign. I also believe Abdali's have always sided with anti-Muslim powers in the region in order to suppress Ghiljay.

I do not have read any thing about Abdali empowering Ismaelis (The Khojas or Khwajas of Kashgharia were Sufis of Naqshbandi silisila). The Shia Qizalbash in his army, were his personnel guards and whatever were their religious views, they turned the tides of battle of Panipat when they were forwarded from the reserve against Marathas. That being said, he didnt empower Qizalbash and Persians, it was his son Timur Shah who would do that.

The only anti-Muslim powers in the region were Marathas, Sikhs and Chinese and Ahmad Shah acted against all of them. The Abdali-Ghilzai's enmity was merely tribal rivalry. The details are more convoluted than you think. Abdalis suffered at the hands of Gorgan Khan, the Safavid governor of Kandahar, and were deported en mass to Herat. But they would sent their forces to aid the Safvid army sent against their rival Mirwais Hotak in coming years. Mirwais Hotak also displayed tribalism and contested with Abdalis for Farah. When Safavids sent forces against Abdalis in Herat, Mahmud Hotaki, Mirwais' son, supported the Safavids but then he invaded the Persia. Abdalis in the meantime also acted against Safavids and attempted capturing Iranian Khorasan, laid siege to Mashad and Nishapur. Both tribes refrained from becoming hurdles for each other on that sensitive occasion. When Nadir Shah Afshar was in the war against Abdalis, Ghilzais sent a force under Saidullah Khan to aid them. But these Ghilzais betrayed the Abdalis by not participating in the battle.

Ahmad Shah did elevated some Ghilzai chiefs but yes overall he was wary of them, for very good reasons. Ghilzais were a threat to his Kingship.

Maybe it is due to my religious bliefs, maybe it is due to my ghiljay background. But I do tend to consider Abdali as a treacherous tribe against what I consider "our" interests. Be it a Sunni Muslim interest or, common interest of all Pashtuns.

I am critical of the official narrative in our history books of a glorious Pashtun dynasty of Abdalis. A public forum is therefore, an expelllent platform for people like me to pose controversial questions.

People who disagree should be able to counter me by sharing what they know about history.

If we all hold ourselves back and avoid talking about these matters, we won't change our views and beliefs.

One of the biggest problems of primitive people is that they don't like to see their beliefs being challenged by others.

If we dont want to be considered as primitive and stupid people, we should be able to discuss everything.

Thats why i felt free to mention your Wahabi beliefs and its tie with your question, it is very clearly driven by your sectarian belifs. Ahmad Shah can not be blamed for his ancestors who allied themselves with Safavids. Saddo Khan Abdali didnt join the camp of Shah Abbas Safavi due to his love for Shia-ism, but because Abdalis were harassed by the Uzbeks and needed imperial assistance regarding that. Shah Abbas and the next two Emperors wouldnt interfere in the Sunni beliefs of Afghans. In Mughal-Safavid wars, Abdalis sided with Safavids and Ghilzais sided with Mughals in their rivalry for each other. Every Pashtun tribe is guilty of display of tribalism and lack of national unity. I have some criticism on Ahamd Shah as well but its on the lack of strong administration in his empire, not on his attempts of having Shia-Sunni harmony in his empire.

[Samandri]

I don't know much about him. Tell me.

Ahmad Shah Abdali and Pir Sabir Shah |

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

Ahmad Shah Abdali and Pir Sabir Shah |

He was a magician? Magic is kufr. He visited shrines of Lahore? Isn't Lahore like a Hindu idolworship place for all Sufi grave worshipers?

[Samandri]

He was a magician? Magic is kufr. He visited shrines of Lahore? Isn't Lahore like a Hindu idolworship place for all Sufi grave worshipers?

He was not a magician , but perceived as such by Shah Nawaz's spies. The Sufi Malangs were/are reputed of possessing 'Kiramat" .

I asked you about Pir Sabir Shah for such a reason. Now think about his relationship with Abdali. Connect the dots

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

He was not a magician , but perceived as such by Shah Nawaz's spies. The Sufi Malangs were/are reputed of possessing 'Kiramat" .

I asked you about Pir Sabir Shah for such a reason. Now think about his relationship with Abdali. Connect the dots

What does possessing kiramat mean to you? They use to have super natural powers? Do you believe people can have super natural powers?

[Samandri]

What does possessing kiramat mean to you? They use to have super natural powers? Do you believe people can have super natural powers?

Did i say any where that i believe in "kiramat"?. I merely explained to you why Pir Sabir Shah was perceived as dangerous magician by Shah Nawaz, the governor of Lahore who brutally killed him later.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

Did i say any where that i believe in "kiramat"?. I merely explained to you why Pir Sabir Shah was perceived as dangerous magician by Shah Nawaz, the governor of Lahore who brutally killed him later.

I am asking you, what does it mean he possessed kiramat?

I am asking you a personal question, do you believe human beings can have super natural powers?