Afghanistan's Ethnic Groups Share a Y-Chromosomal Heritage

[Afghanfootball]

I to take another look at the scatter plot and it seems to seems to me like we are clustered closer to sindhis and brahui than anyone else!! Could someone please tell me if I have misinterpreted the graph because I find this very hard to believe.http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...e.0034288.g001

[Afghanfootball]

I to take another look at the scatter plot and it seems to seems to me like we are clustered closer to sindhis and brahui than anyone else!! Could someone please tell me if I have misinterpreted the graph because I find this very hard to believe.http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...e.0034288.g001

[MENTION=1234]Smarty[/MENTION] [MENTION=5723]Kushan Prince[/MENTION] [MENTION=3658]pashtanajan[/MENTION]

Anyone got any comments?

[Kushan Prince]

I to take another look at the scatter plot and it seems to seems to me like we are clustered closer to sindhis and brahui than anyone else!! Could someone please tell me if I have misinterpreted the graph because I find this very hard to believe.http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...e.0034288.g001

Yes i've read that once before, i think these tests were conducted in Kabul where they came to the conclusion that all Afghans have a genetic similarity. I don't really agree with it since people in Kabul will tend to mix with each other. I doubt they tested Pashtuns in the south and east since those areas dangerous so they probably used the sample of kabuli's to that come to that conclusion.

Also i couldn't find that chart since i was skimming threw it, can you post it here?

[Afghanfootball]

Yes i've read that once before, i think these tests were conducted in Kabul where they came to the conclusion that all Afghans have a genetic similarity. I don't really agree with it since people in Kabul will tend to mix with each other. I doubt they tested Pashtuns in the south and east since those areas dangerous so they probably used the sample of kabuli's to that come to that conclusion.

Also i couldn't find that chart since i was skimming threw it, can you post it here?

[pashtanajan]

[MENTION=1234]Smarty[/MENTION] [MENTION=5723]Kushan Prince[/MENTION] [MENTION=3658]pashtanajan[/MENTION]

Anyone got any comments?

Hmm.

I'm not sure what kind of samples were used in the PCA plot you posted or how it generated those results. Tajiks are not homogenous, so the Tajiks used in that study could have been very East Asian shifted. As for Brahuis, they actually have a very low ASI (Ancestral South Indian) component in their admixture. They are most like the Nuristanis/Kalash in their genetic makeup. They are the descendants of ancient Indo-Aryans and have not inter-married outside of their own group for many years. They speak a Dardic language, which is a sub-group of Indo-Aryan languages, and these languages probably exhibit very ancient Indo-Aryan features. They are spoken in Nuristan, Chitral, Kunar, and Kashmir. In addition, the Brahui are very similar to Balochis in their genetic makeup. I wouldn't classify the Brahui as a South Asian ethnicity or N.W Indian ethnicity, but rather a south-central Asian ethnicity like Tajiks, Pashtuns, Nuristanis, etc. due to their low ASI admixture. So it makes sense that they cluster with Pashtuns and Balochis.

Tajiks, although they speak a Western Iranian language (Dari) are actually an Eastern Iranian group so they don't cluster with Iranians as much as they do with Pashtuns. Tajiks, of course, are more Eastern Asian shifted, particularly the ones from Tajikistan and some Afghan Tajiks are actually "tajikified" Uzbeks or Turkic people like the Qizilbash. Tajiks that are not Eastern Asian shifted cluster usually with Pashtuns.

But the closest ethnic groups to Pashtuns are Tajiks (Afghan Tajiks), Balochis and Brahuis. Here is a PCA plot that I find more accurate. The Pakistani Pashtuns cluster with Sindhis. Perhaps that is what you see in the PCA plot you've posted! But none of the Afghan Pashtuns clustered with Sindhis in this PCA plot.

In this PCA plot, I've written about the differences between Afghan Pashtuns and Pakistani Pashtuns. Afghan Pashtuns according to this PCA plot are more homogenous and west asian shifted. They cluster closer to other south-central asian groups like Tajiks, Balochis and Brahuis. None of the Afghan pashtuns cluster closer to Sindhis. Meanwhile the Pakistani Pashtuns are more south asian shifted and they cluster closer to Sindhis. This is interesting. I'm guessing some Pakistani Pashtuns may be "pashtunized" people indigenous to South Asia.

[Smarty]

Hmm.

Meanwhile the Pakistani Pashtuns are more south asian shifted and they cluster closer to Sindhis. This is interesting. I'm guessing some Pakistani Pashtuns may be "pashtunized" people indigenous to South Asia.

Its because big portion of population of Pashtuns and balochs comprise of conquered indigenous population who were absorbed as "hamsayas", balochs have also their own term for them.

[pashtanajan]

[MENTION=1234]Smarty[/MENTION]

Interesting. Do Pashtuns in Pakistan know which families are "hamsayas" and which are not?

[Smarty]

@Smarty

Interesting. Do Pashtuns in Pakistan know which families are "hamsayas" and which are not?

Yes, the ones in the village can tell but not outside. Pashtun families in the village are landholders while hamsayas are their serfs. This hamsaya thing is part of pashtunwali and also exists in Afghanistan where hamsayas would naturally be not indics

[pashtanajan]

Yes, the ones in the village can tell but not outside. Pashtun families in the village are landholders while hamsayas are their serfs. This hamsaya thing is part of pashtunwali and also exists in Afghanistan where hamsayas would naturally be not indics

I think a lot of the urban Pashtun population in Pakistan may be descendants of Hamasayas. I do know that Pashtuns from more tribal areas most likely have Pashtun ancestry, especially Pashtuns from Waziristan and the Tribal frontier. But I remember going to Peshawar, and a lot of the Peshawaris didn't strike me as having Pashtun ancestry. I could tell a Peshawari apart from someone that was a Pashtun from Afghanistan or the tribal regions of Pakistan. Do many Peshawari people have Indic ancestry? I think that they are very similar to Hindko people, even Panjabis, more so than Pashtuns from the tribal frontiers or Afghanistan.

I think I get the "hamsaya' system but I haven't heard it by that name in Afghanistan. Both my families are landowners but we just have servants, not "hamsayas". They can be from any ethnic group or they can even poor people from our own quam.

[Kushan Prince]

Yes, the ones in the village can tell but not outside. Pashtun families in the village are landholders while hamsayas are their serfs. This hamsaya thing is part of pashtunwali and also exists in Afghanistan where hamsayas would naturally be not indics

Luffy,

Gadoonwal posted a thread here a while back for a people called "Kasabyian" (meat cutters.) He said how these people are low caste indians who adopted pashto and live in mostly Pashtun areas but are not Pashtun. Interestingly enough, i ran into a guy from Quetta one time who could speak Pashto but did not look Pashtun in appearance at all but rather more swarthier and Punjabi looking.

Could these people be the Kasabi's or Hamsayas as you call them?

[Smarty]

I think a lot of the urban Pashtun population in Pakistan may be descendants of Hamasayas. I do know that Pashtuns from more tribal areas most likely have Pashtun ancestry, especially Pashtuns from Waziristan and the Tribal frontier. But I remember going to Peshawar, and a lot of the Peshawaris didn't strike me as having Pashtun ancestry. I could tell a Peshawari apart from someone that was a Pashtun from Afghanistan or the tribal regions of Pakistan. Do many Peshawari people have Indic ancestry? I think that they are very similar to Hindko people, even Panjabis, more so than Pashtuns from the tribal frontiers or Afghanistan.

I think I get the "hamsaya' system but I haven't heard it by that name in Afghanistan. Both my families are landowners but we just have servants, not "hamsayas". They can be from any ethnic group or they can even poor people from our own quam.

Lets not talk about Peshawer city, or any other city , any one can settle there and buy land. I was talking about our rural set up where you study Pashtuns.

Waziristan also has "hamsaya" system, but in their case they imported "karigars" from India . To simplify things for you, all the Hindus and Sikhs in FATA before 1947 were hamsaya, they were useful merchant class from khatri caste. All the gun-smiths in Dara adam Khel , are not Afridis but lohar from Punjab, Afridis have told me this.

Pashtuns in the past , were just warrior class, for all other professions people of other ethnicities were hired and settled on their lands. Not just karigars, artisans etc but also those who sought protection and refuge which also includes pashtuns of other tribes. In KPK, the non-pashtun stock found among pashtuns, are those aboriginals who were conquered and expelled from their lands, only useful karigar were allowed to stay as clients and serfs......they are racially akin to Punjabis and Hindkowans.
@Kushan Prince they might not be necessarily dark-skinned ones. The serfs in bajaur are most probably of kafir race akin to nuristanis, they are not dark-skinned. In Yusufzai territiory, some hamsayas are of dardic race. In Afghanistan, hamsayas would be obviously of not indic race.

Only Kochi nomads dont keep these hamsayas.

In Balochistan, when Marris Balochs conquered lands from Barozai Afghans, they not only acquired lands but also slaves and serfs of Barozais with it. Even Mongols used to spare the lives of karigar class and used to keep them, as they had use. Rajputs, a warrior class like pashtuns, also had/has this baggage with them.

[Afghanfootball]

Hmm.

I'm not sure what kind of samples were used in the PCA plot you posted or how it generated those results. Tajiks are not homogenous, so the Tajiks used in that study could have been very East Asian shifted. As for Brahuis, they actually have a very low ASI (Ancestral South Indian) component in their admixture. They are most like the Nuristanis/Kalash in their genetic makeup. They are the descendants of ancient Indo-Aryans and have not inter-married outside of their own group for many years. They speak a Dardic language, which is a sub-group of Indo-Aryan languages, and these languages probably exhibit very ancient Indo-Aryan features. They are spoken in Nuristan, Chitral, Kunar, and Kashmir. In addition, the Brahui are very similar to Balochis in their genetic makeup. I wouldn't classify the Brahui as a South Asian ethnicity or N.W Indian ethnicity, but rather a south-central Asian ethnicity like Tajiks, Pashtuns, Nuristanis, etc. due to their low ASI admixture. So it makes sense that they cluster with Pashtuns and Balochis.

Tajiks, although they speak a Western Iranian language (Dari) are actually an Eastern Iranian group so they don't cluster with Iranians as much as they do with Pashtuns. Tajiks, of course, are more Eastern Asian shifted, particularly the ones from Tajikistan and some Afghan Tajiks are actually "tajikified" Uzbeks or Turkic people like the Qizilbash. Tajiks that are not Eastern Asian shifted cluster usually with Pashtuns.

But the closest ethnic groups to Pashtuns are Tajiks (Afghan Tajiks), Balochis and Brahuis. Here is a PCA plot that I find more accurate. The Pakistani Pashtuns cluster with Sindhis. Perhaps that is what you see in the PCA plot you've posted! But none of the Afghan Pashtuns clustered with Sindhis in this PCA plot.

In this PCA plot, I've written about the differences between Afghan Pashtuns and Pakistani Pashtuns. Afghan Pashtuns according to this PCA plot are more homogenous and west asian shifted. They cluster closer to other south-central asian groups like Tajiks, Balochis and Brahuis. None of the Afghan pashtuns cluster closer to Sindhis. Meanwhile the Pakistani Pashtuns are more south asian shifted and they cluster closer to Sindhis. This is interesting. I'm guessing some Pakistani Pashtuns may be "pashtunized" people indigenous to South Asia.

This makes allot more sense then what I saw in the other PCA plot (which I probably misinterpreted). I have actually written about the differences I saw between Afghan Pashtuns and Pakistani Pashtuns in a thread that was deleted. It has always seemed to me that Afghan Pashtuns are more related to our Afghan Tajik brothers than we are to our brothers on the other side of the border and I guess this plot proves that. I had always heard that we are similar to Balochis but im not gonna lie I had never heard of a Brahui before so I looked them up and thought they were South Asian because they were Dravidian, so thanks for clarifying that aswell.

Also thanks for the response your post really does an amazing job of clarifying my questions and is probably one of if not the best post I have ever read on a forum

[DMXX]

If there is any interest at all, we (team at Anthrogenica) have recently created a dedicated Pashto section (both English and Pashto supported) for discussing genetics and anthropology with a Pakhtun emphasis. Pleased to state we already have quite a few Pakhtuns present there.

http://vaedhya.blogspot.co.uk/2012/0...ion-among.html
...

Always a pleasure to see my hobbyist research catches other people's attention. Glad some of you found it useful.

[Kushan Prince]

If there is any interest at all, we (team at Anthrogenica) have recently created a dedicated Pashto section (both English and Pashto supported) for discussing genetics and anthropology with a Pakhtun emphasis. Pleased to state we already have quite a few Pakhtuns present there.



Always a pleasure to see my hobbyist research catches other people's attention. Glad some of you found it useful.

Aren't you the Azeri-Iranian mod on there? I've lurked on there quite a few times to check out the forum, i know members like Pashtanajan and Sein are present there. But sadly, you won't find many Pashtuns here interested in such matters.

[DMXX]

Aren't you the Azeri-Iranian mod on there?

One and the same (admin). I've spread myself quite far across the genealogy boards over the years.

I've lurked on there quite a few times to check out the forum, i know members like Pashtanajan and Sein are present there. But sadly, you won't find many Pashtuns here interested in such matters.

That's very much the case with Iranians as well unfortunately. Genetic genealogy attracts a minority of folks from West and Central Asia it seems. I can only assume the known ethno-linguistic or tribal affiliations and fitting them into the known historical narrative is sufficient for the majority in terms of understanding their family's pasts. Anything beyond that is likely deemed to be irrelevant.

With that being said, we do have quite a few discussions regarding Pakhtuns and South-Central Asia there. Unsure who Pashtanajan is on the forum, but I can sing the praises Sein's thoughtful contributions for days. One of our mods recently launched the SASCA Ancestry Project (SASCA = South Asian-South Central Asian). Shedding light on our community's presence and aspirations (particularly given the Harappa Project's slide into inactivity) is intuitive.

A Kushan prince such as yourself might find interest in a very interesting discussion recently had regarding the Yuezhi/Kushans.