Aghvans and Afghans - Historical ties?!

[al-arab]

Dear Al Arab, may I ask, do You know what kraft Chechen mainly produce in Iraq? What are they famous for? About Adyghe in Jordan land I heard already several times – tomorrow or aftertomorrow I will watch Your videos too.
Our belief(I follow it) is somehow related to Zoroastrian(Zartushti) belief and Vedic belief. However Zartusht(Zoroaster) was a reformer that tried to get rid of some bed things that happened trough the years within the ancient belief, while in Armenia these bad things(what You call „idol whorship“) happened to come later, so that Zartushts reform didn’t play much role on Armenian belief untill some politics of Persia tried to impose their rites to Armenia.About Bagrationi – You Are right, Georgian Bagrationi come from Armenian Bagratuni, but Bagratuni/Bagrationi aren’t Armenians neither – most probably they have Persian origins(even if ome Armenian historians relate them to Jews, but this is more for political reasons of christians – they related almost everybody to jews…)
About Adyghe lands. I have been only tot he Republic of Adygea , the other lands I didn’t visit personally.Adygea has very nice lowlands with some lakes and nice mountains – generally the Adyghe/Abkhaz lands have a mild climte all the year , it is one of agriculturaly most advanced regions in Russian Federation. I remember a video of an Ubykh who still was alive after he left Russa for Turkey and came back in the 90-ies , and he was crying when he ate an Apple of Maykop(the capital of Adygea) – he told that from his childhood he remembered that nice taste of Maykop apples. Adygea and Abkhazia are really so mild compared to their bordering regions.
About the first settlers on the Caucasus is a really difficult question! Many claim that tob e – what I can surely say that as long as we existed they existed(in our history they are described ) – but that question is quiet difficult to nswer as the reak knowledge on that is lost – it is only for sure that most of Caucasians are really very longy time on the Caucasus(for example the Lezgic tribes of today existed even 2000 years ago).
The language, as i tried to describe before is not at all simmilar to Georgian – the Caucasian languagestheory was created by linguists to simplify everything.
Kartvelian languages(Georgian)
Adyghe/Abkhaz
Nakh/Daghestani

Are perhaps as much related as Semitic and Indoeuropean, simply being neighbours surely made Caucasians exchange words and ways of pronounciation.

About the Arab world! I asked You already a question , but I forgotten the theme where I asked You so I didn’t see if You answered.
I repeat it here.
There is a famous epic in Iran called Shahname.
In the text of Shahname there is an Arab king called Zahak(in armenian mythology he appears too as Azhdahak).
According tot he story Zahak was at the begining a good but ver proud ruler so that the evil spirit chose him to make bad things(however that isn’t important form y question).
According tot he Shahname the devil turns Zahaks mind starting to work as his kitchen chief and making him try meat!
The Shahname states that before Arabs weren’t eating meat and were purely vegetarians.
My question is, more a question on Your oppinion, may that be true? Are there any indications that could be true?
Simply Shaname is very famous here as it partly retells our own myths, so we had many conversations on that theme.

I found some time to reply to your post dear friend, so wanted to do it now to be sure not to forget it.

Dear Arevapasht

The Chechens in Iraq live mainly in Baghdad, in the north of the country (Mosul, Irbil and Kirkuk (where there are a lot of Turkmen also) and the Diyala province.

There is in fact a village in Diyala province called Chechen. There live about 5000 Chechens in Diyala province.
They came to Iraq after the Russian invasion of Caucasus especially from 1860-1900.

Some of those people have unfortunately been targeted by some Shia militias as retaliation for secterian violence commited by other Sunnis. Some Chechens came to Iraq even as early as 200 years ago!
They settled mostly in Iraq, Jordan, Syria and Turkey outside of Chechnya.

Most of Chechens today speak Arabic and very few know Chechen. They are characterized by their names and often blue eyes and light brown hair.

About their craftsmanship. They were always known as people of nature and agriculture. But they also produced equipment for horse riding and some sword.

I unfortunately have no information about old believes for any peoples. I have only heard about Zaroastrian by name only.

Is your Armenian local belief based on the nature and sun? Do you have an God also or more Gods like Hinduism?

About the Bagrationi. I have heard the Jewish part as well. But I also think it is fiction. Much like the Etiophian Royal family and their supposed ties to Jews. But I do not know 100 percent.

Persians? Never heard about that before Maybe it is truth. What I most heard is that they are Armenian originally.

According to Cyril Tourmanoff they are a branch of the Bagratid Armenian family. But I am not sure.

About ancestry of Chechens I found this statement on the English

Wikipedia page about Chechens.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechen_people

The statement can be found under Genetics and Y-DNA. It says this.

"study by Ivan Nasidze.[28]

Overall, tests have shown consistently that Chechens are most closely related to Ingush, Circassians, Georgians, and Iranians (especially Northwestern Iranians), occasionally showing a kinship to other peoples in some tests. Balanovsky's study showed the Ingush to be the Chechens' closest relatives by far.[27][28][29]"

Circassians are Adyghe people. So outside of Ingush they are most related to Adyghe people if that is truth (Y-DNA father to father line)

About Adyghe land. I have also only heard good things about it's beauty. Because it has everything. Sea, lakes, rivers, mountains, forrests, lowlands etc. And the mild climate as you say.

I have heard that Sochi was orginally a Adyghe city. Is that correct?
That is a beautiful story about the old man. May he find peace in his homeland.

Unfortunately I have not read much about the Russian genocide towards the Adyghe, but Insha'Allah i will do so out of respect for my ancestors.
Sorry for my ignorance dear friend, but what is Ubykh? Adyghe right in Armenian or Adyghe language?

I ask because the English Wikipedia claim that Adyghe people have lived for centuries in Caucasus.

Thank you again for the explanation about the languages. There are so many in Caucasus!

About your question about the Arab world: I will try to answer.
I know a little about the Shahname and also about the portray of the Zahhak by Iranians. This was done because Semitic peoples in Iraq (including Arabs) nearly always defeated Persians. So when the Shahname was made 1000 years ago to describe Iranian society before the Arab conquest of Persia in the 7th century they made them look bad because of the history.

The truth is that the word Zahhak/dahhak in Arabic means to laugh or
smile

About whether or not Arabs were vegetarians.

This is difficult to answer. The ancient civilizations in Iraq (semitic peoples like Arabs) did eat meat. The Babylonians for example. The Summerians (the first known civilization on earth) were the first to settle down and stop being nomads. They began cultivation etc and began domesticating animals for food and labor.

It is hard to tell whether early Arabs were vegetarians or not. Some probably where. Whether it was an tendency I doubt because the climate is hars in the Arab/Middle Eastern world so eating meat was essential in many ways. Unfortunately I do not know much about that subject so I would need to find Arab sources on this matter (vegeterian cuisine among Arabs).

There are plenty of vegetarian dishes in Arabic cuisine so there is no doubt that some where vegetarians. But is is hard to tell if that was a big tendency or not I can imagine without knowing it 100 percent.

I would need to find reliable sources about the cuisine of early Arabs. (I also it depends on the location of the different Arab tribes before Islam was introduced)

[Tjanaparh]

The Chechens in Iraq live mainly in Baghdad, in the north of the country (Mosul, Irbil and Kirkuk (where there are a lot of Turkmen also) and the Diyala province.
There is in fact a village in Diyala province called Chechen. There live about 5000 Chechens in Diyala province.They came to Iraq after the Russian invasion of Caucasus especially from 1860-1900.
Some of those people have unfortunately been targeted by some Shia militias as retaliation for secterian violence commited by other Sunnis. Some Chechens came to Iraq even as early as 200 years ago! They settled mostly in Iraq, Jordan, Syria and Turkey outside of Chechnya.
Most of Chechens today speak Arabic and very few know Chechen. They are characterized by their names and often blue eyes and light brown hair. About their craftsmanship. They were always known as people of nature and agriculture. But they also produced equipment for horse riding and some sword. I unfortunately have no information about old believes for any peoples. I have only heard about Zaroastrian by name only. Is your Armenian local belief based on the nature and sun? Do you have an God also or more Gods like Hinduism? About the Bagrationi. I have heard the Jewish part as well. But I also think it is fiction. Much like the Etiophian Royal family and their supposed ties to Jews. But I do not know 100 percent. Persians? Never heard about that before Maybe it is truth. What I most heard is that they are Armenian originally. According to Cyril Tourmanoff they are a branch of the Bagratid Armenian family. But I am not sure. About ancestry of Chechens I found this statement on the English Wikipedia page about Chechens.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechen_people The statement can be found under Genetics and Y-DNA. It says this."study by Ivan Nasidze.[28]Overall, tests have shown consistently that Chechens are most closely related to Ingush, Circassians, Georgians, and Iranians (especially Northwestern Iranians), occasionally showing a kinship to other peoples in some tests. Balanovsky's study showed the Ingush to be the Chechens' closest relatives by far.[27][28][29]"
Circassians are Adyghe people. So outside of Ingush they are most related to Adyghe people if that is truth (Y-DNA father to father line)
About Adyghe land. I have also only heard good things about it's beauty. Because it has everything. Sea, lakes, rivers, mountains, forrests, lowlands etc. And the mild climate as you say.
I have heard that Sochi was orginally a Adyghe city. Is that correct?
That is a beautiful story about the old man. May he find peace in his homeland.
Unfortunately I have not read much about the Russian genocide towards the Adyghe, but Insha'Allah i will do so out of respect for my ancestors. Sorry for my ignorance dear friend, but what is Ubykh? Adyghe right in Armenian or Adyghe language?
I ask because the English Wikipedia claim that Adyghe people have lived for centuries in Caucasus.

Thank you again for the explanation about the languages. There are so many in Caucasus!
About your question about the Arab world: I will try to answer.
I know a little about the Shahname and also about the portray of the Zahhak by Iranians. This was done because Semitic peoples in Iraq (including Arabs) nearly always defeated Persians. So when the Shahname was made 1000 years ago to describe Iranian society before the Arab conquest of Persia in the 7th century they made them look bad because of the history.
The truth is that the word Zahhak/dahhak in Arabic means to laugh or smile
About whether or not Arabs were vegetarians.
This is difficult to answer. The ancient civilizations in Iraq (semitic peoples like Arabs) did eat meat. The Babylonians for example. The Summerians (the first known civilization on earth) were the first to settle down and stop being nomads. They began cultivation etc and began domesticating animals for food and labor. It is hard to tell whether early Arabs were vegetarians or not. Some probably where. Whether it was an tendency I doubt because the climate is hars in the Arab/Middle Eastern world so eating meat was essential in many ways. Unfortunately I do not know much about that subject so I would need to find Arab sources on this matter (vegeterian cuisine among Arabs).
There are plenty of vegetarian dishes in Arabic cuisine so there is no doubt that some where vegetarians. But is is hard to tell if that was a big tendency or not I can imagine without knowing it 100 percent. I would need to find reliable sources about the cuisine of early Arabs. (I also it depends on the location of the different Arab tribes before Islam was introduced)

Dear friend, excuse me that You had to wait for my answer.
First of all I watched the videos Yo posted!
The one of AlJazeera was in Arabic,so I couldn’t understand it, but the one with English subtitles as strange.It was about the Adyghe of Israel.The man told they are better in Israel than Arab countries where they cannot use their flag, but why? That seems strange to me! Also he told they cannot return to their lands – but they can – there were even some programs , as I told You one friend Uncle, who was Adyghe immigrated from Turkey to his homeland with that program , perhaps its not a completely fair program so that not everybody can participate, but even without program they are at least free to return, some programs still exist on that purpose. I would also say they should return to their home – and participate in making grow their nation and culture.About our belief – it is quiet different of a religion , so perhaps it will be difficult to explain to You some things, As the beliefs of Arabic or Jewish origins have quiet a different base. We belief In one Creator(Ara, Ararich – meaning creator).
We have some spirits given by the creator as example for the people to follow(bravery in fights, hospitality, keeping life of family and house, longing for truth, longing for knowledge, longing for real love and purity of spirit and body, loving the nature around) – sometimes they are personified as the stories about them show ways that are examples for the people, in times of Geek dominance some kings tried to copy Greeks and identify those spirits with greek gods, but it is not at all like that in the pure belief. At least I woulnd’t identify the spirit of my belief with what Christians and Muslims call (Allah, Elohim…).
They are simply important as they personify the stories that the creator gave people to find a path in life that will lead to spiritual truth – as the stories of our belief can understand even a small child – they are the base of education(or You can say they were, as not many of us remained).
The Sun is important for Armenians in the way that it is the Sun the creator created to make the earth fill with life – so Sun is a symbol of life.
Our belief has also no prayers, But songs, hymns and dances of thanking.
That is shortly only to give an idea!
About Bagrationi! You are right that Georgian Bagrationi developed from Armenian Bagratuni! But the Bagratuni wren’t Armenians, that is well known.
They derive from a man who came from today’s Iran – that is well known , the only dispute is about his origin, but most probably he is of Iranic nations.
By the way Bagratunis were once a big opposition to the Caliphate of Baghdad(as the Armenian as the Georgian ones) . I think if You find some early sources of the Caliphate You will find a lot of documents and agreements of the Bagratuni/Bagrationi family.
About Chechens I have still to read the article.
About Sochi and Ubykh! Ubykhs were an Adyghe tribe, they are the ones who mostly immigrated(fled) to Turkey and Arabic countries.
They were the aborigens of Sochi ! They still exist, but they lost their specific language, they speak or Turkish/Arabic or normal Adygean, ut their specific language isn’t spoken anymore.
They are most probably the heaviest victim of Russian imperialism( however You should also remember that this imperialism was exported to Russia and led by a non-Russian noble family, who erased even the Russian culture, as starting from Peter the first they forced Russians violently to change their mentality, traditions – often they even didn’t speak Russian but French or German in the court – only imagine how sick they were! However the Caucasians suffered of 2 big empires the Russian and Ottoman – which were both not national but poltical states of two cruel monarchs – some suffered from Ottomans, some from Russian empire, some from both, and sometimes also from Persians, whose rulers weren’t the best too….).
The empires used mostly local problems between nations, or even between tribes for their wars, they used politics full of lies, that created a lot of opposition.
The opposition of North Caucasians had generally 3-4 ways:
1)Military confrontation(this way chose for example the students of Muhammed Al Yaraghi)
2) Spiritual superiority (this way chose people like the Chechen Sufi, Kunta Haji, who wanted his people to influence the Russin soilders and not opposite)
3) In later times there were communists(among Russian communists the most weren’t Russians , but sons of different minorities, Caucasians weren’t an exception, but they were for sure the worst communists, as they used it together with racial laws(Stalin, Beriya……)
4) There were also simple people who made Selfjustice, they didn’t have any movement and acted singulary or in small groups, they were one of the most moral of all people – so till now people of the villages admire people like them , sing songs about their bravery.

About Zahak/Dahak – it is interesting, as we have a story about him, that is much older than Shahname, and is written down even before the birth of Muhammed, we have here even a mountain called “Azhdahak”, in ome nations he is a well admired heroic figure(West Iranic nations for example), in others like Armenians or Persians he is more a very negative figure, however it would be interesting to understand the roots of that strory.
However remember, at the beginning Zahak and Arabs are described positively, moreover, the story tells that it was the king of Iranians who lost on moral qualities and Zahak was firstly a positive one but later got evil , so that he had to be defeated.
By the way, even if I do not know the names of the dishes I admire vegetarian dishes in Arabic cousine – I tried some Syrian and Lebanese dishes I loved a lot.
That is All for the moment my friend! I would say this theme can b used generally on Caucasian themes, if the Administration and our Pashtun friends have no problems , so that an other theme could be used for Arabic themes. Surely than the themes could change section, or at least must show a connection to Pashtun history – trough Origins,Belief, Language,Political development. So that it would be something of benefit.

I hope that at the moment I answered all Your questions!

[al-arab]

Dear friend, excuse me that You had to wait for my answer.
First of all I watched the videos Yo posted!
The one of AlJazeera was in Arabic,so I couldn’t understand it, but the one with English subtitles as strange.It was about the Adyghe of Israel.The man told they are better in Israel than Arab countries where they cannot use their flag, but why? That seems strange to me! Also he told they cannot return to their lands – but they can – there were even some programs , as I told You one friend Uncle, who was Adyghe immigrated from Turkey to his homeland with that program , perhaps its not a completely fair program so that not everybody can participate, but even without program they are at least free to return, some programs still exist on that purpose. I would also say they should return to their home – and participate in making grow their nation and culture.About our belief – it is quiet different of a religion , so perhaps it will be difficult to explain to You some things, As the beliefs of Arabic or Jewish origins have quiet a different base. We belief In one Creator(Ara, Ararich – meaning creator).
We have some spirits given by the creator as example for the people to follow(bravery in fights, hospitality, keeping life of family and house, longing for truth, longing for knowledge, longing for real love and purity of spirit and body, loving the nature around) – sometimes they are personified as the stories about them show ways that are examples for the people, in times of Geek dominance some kings tried to copy Greeks and identify those spirits with greek gods, but it is not at all like that in the pure belief. At least I woulnd’t identify the spirit of my belief with what Christians and Muslims call (Allah, Elohim…).
They are simply important as they personify the stories that the creator gave people to find a path in life that will lead to spiritual truth – as the stories of our belief can understand even a small child – they are the base of education(or You can say they were, as not many of us remained).
The Sun is important for Armenians in the way that it is the Sun the creator created to make the earth fill with life – so Sun is a symbol of life.
Our belief has also no prayers, But songs, hymns and dances of thanking.
That is shortly only to give an idea!
About Bagrationi! You are right that Georgian Bagrationi developed from Armenian Bagratuni! But the Bagratuni wren’t Armenians, that is well known.
They derive from a man who came from today’s Iran – that is well known , the only dispute is about his origin, but most probably he is of Iranic nations.
By the way Bagratunis were once a big opposition to the Caliphate of Baghdad(as the Armenian as the Georgian ones) . I think if You find some early sources of the Caliphate You will find a lot of documents and agreements of the Bagratuni/Bagrationi family.
About Chechens I have still to read the article.
About Sochi and Ubykh! Ubykhs were an Adyghe tribe, they are the ones who mostly immigrated(fled) to Turkey and Arabic countries.
They were the aborigens of Sochi ! They still exist, but they lost their specific language, they speak or Turkish/Arabic or normal Adygean, ut their specific language isn’t spoken anymore.
They are most probably the heaviest victim of Russian imperialism( however You should also remember that this imperialism was exported to Russia and led by a non-Russian noble family, who erased even the Russian culture, as starting from Peter the first they forced Russians violently to change their mentality, traditions – often they even didn’t speak Russian but French or German in the court – only imagine how sick they were! However the Caucasians suffered of 2 big empires the Russian and Ottoman – which were both not national but poltical states of two cruel monarchs – some suffered from Ottomans, some from Russian empire, some from both, and sometimes also from Persians, whose rulers weren’t the best too….).
The empires used mostly local problems between nations, or even between tribes for their wars, they used politics full of lies, that created a lot of opposition.
The opposition of North Caucasians had generally 3-4 ways:
1)Military confrontation(this way chose for example the students of Muhammed Al Yaraghi)
2) Spiritual superiority (this way chose people like the Chechen Sufi, Kunta Haji, who wanted his people to influence the Russin soilders and not opposite)
3) In later times there were communists(among Russian communists the most weren’t Russians , but sons of different minorities, Caucasians weren’t an exception, but they were for sure the worst communists, as they used it together with racial laws(Stalin, Beriya……)
4) There were also simple people who made Selfjustice, they didn’t have any movement and acted singulary or in small groups, they were one of the most moral of all people – so till now people of the villages admire people like them , sing songs about their bravery.

About Zahak/Dahak – it is interesting, as we have a story about him, that is much older than Shahname, and is written down even before the birth of Muhammed, we have here even a mountain called “Azhdahak”, in ome nations he is a well admired heroic figure(West Iranic nations for example), in others like Armenians or Persians he is more a very negative figure, however it would be interesting to understand the roots of that strory.
However remember, at the beginning Zahak and Arabs are described positively, moreover, the story tells that it was the king of Iranians who lost on moral qualities and Zahak was firstly a positive one but later got evil , so that he had to be defeated.
By the way, even if I do not know the names of the dishes I admire vegetarian dishes in Arabic cousine – I tried some Syrian and Lebanese dishes I loved a lot.
That is All for the moment my friend! I would say this theme can b used generally on Caucasian themes, if the Administration and our Pashtun friends have no problems , so that an other theme could be used for Arabic themes. Surely than the themes could change section, or at least must show a connection to Pashtun history – trough Origins,Belief, Language,Political development. So that it would be something of benefit.

I hope that at the moment I answered all Your questions!

Thank you every much dear friend. I will reply to your very good post tomorrow because my access to the Internet is limited today.

[al-arab]

I wrote you a private message dear Arevapasht.

Unfortunately I was not able to reply to you yesterday which I apologize for. I will try and reply this afternoon or maybe tomorrow morning local Mekkah time. My internet access has been limited in the past days and because of a trip to the Two Holy Cities.