Aghvans and Afghans - Historical ties?!

[Tjanaparh]

Dear Karachi - unfortunately the term Daghestani is quiet a complicated term.But You are absolutely right, part of Lezgic nations live in Russias Daghestan region, but Daghestan hasn't got one nation and one identity.
There are at least 5-6 greater groups of families in Daghestan that include various nations.
Lezgic family is one of them.
They are divided between Daghestan and Azerbaijan(actually biggest part of ex-Soviet Azerbaijian was Lezgic territory once).
May I ask, who are the Ani?

[Karachi]

^ in Dna terms ANI is a huge movement of people that occurred some time between 3000-4000 ago from Caucasus region towards South asia, nearly every south asian today has ANI in them, with Pashtuns having the most at 80-85%, the other pakistani ethnic groups also have 60-80% ANI in them depending on the region of pakistan they are in, the northern pakistanis usually have the most ANI closer to 80%, while southern pakistans, Punjabi, Sindhi etc.. have 60-70%. Even Indian have this, but it gets lower once you go towards south india or east india.

The ANI components tested in south asia are very close to the current Daghestan populations and Lezgic was one of the population mentioned when discussing the pashtun dna. Perhaps there was another recent migration towards pashtuns areas and maybe that is the connection you are mentioning

[al-arab]

Dear Arevapasht:

As I once told you (in the Pashtun DNA thread) my maternal great-grandmother was half Adyghe and half Ossetian/Georgian (Bagrationi).

Do you know about their DNA? I have always been told that they are the oldest inhabitants of Caucasus and that they were the best warriors in Caucasaus. They were also known as Mamluks and ruled Egypt for centuries. After the Russian conquest a lot of them immigrated to the Arab world, many to Syria, Jordan and Iraq.

I know that Kabardians regard themselves as a tribe of Adyghe.

Adyghe people are most found in Adygea, Kabardino-Balkaria and Karachay-Cherkessia. I know that they are the largest population group in North Caucasus but do you know if they are related to some of the peoples in Dagestan? I mean indigenous Caucasian peoples not Turkish peoples such as Balkars and Karachays.

I would be very thankful if you could provide some information about their ancestry.

Their flag:





This picture is from Iraq. (Adyghe were famous for their horse riding in Iraq, Jordan and Syria)

Their tradiotional warriror dress.



Female traditional dress:



Male traditional dress:

[Tjanaparh]

Dear Arevapasht:
As I once told you (in the Pashtun DNA thread) my maternal great-grandmother was half Adyghe and half Ossetian/Georgian (Bagrationi).
Do you know about their DNA? I have always been told that they are the oldest inhabitants of Caucasus and that they were the best warriors in Caucasaus. They were also known as Mamluks and ruled Egypt for centuries. After the Russian conquest a lot of them immigrated to the Arab world, many to Syria, Jordan and Iraq. I know that Kabardians regard themselves as a tribe of Adyghe. Adyghe people are most found in Adygea, Kabardino-Balkaria and Karachay-Cherkessia. I know that they are the largest population group in North Caucasus but do you know if they are related to some of the peoples in Dagestan? I mean indigenous Caucasian peoples not Turkish peoples such as Balkars and Karachays. I would be very thankful if you could provide some information about their ancestry.

Dear Al-Arab, even if I am a specialist on DNA/RNA generally, I never stuied so much the DNA statistics of all populations, so I would prefer to not answer You question, as a non competent on Adyghe DNA.
But I can give You some information about them, perhaps it isn't the compltest one as We live quit far away from eachother now, so that Adygheans are the ones I know less than others.
First of all Abkhazians and Adygheans shouldn't be seen as different nations but as brother-tribes of one nation. Once all they were living in one big territory, but due to firstly Russian and also Georgian and Turkic expansions they are divided now. Due to their territorial division made by Stalin they have suffered. Stalin wished to erase any normal national feelings among all people, so he created those false republics that exist on ex-Soviet territory. Kabardian ,Adyghe and cherkes for instance are really same people but part of three different administratory units were in two they are only half of majority with some turkic Balkar and Karachay, who are themselves almost one nation.
Ubykhs were mostly prived of their homeland and disappeard in other countries or solved themselves between their brother tribes.
By the way, I know only a bit about Mamluks, but weren't Mamluks mixed of different nations, not only Cherkes and Georgians? I learnt at least like that, because Kazakhs also say that some of them were also part of Mamluks?!
Abou their relation to Daghestan:

Look, I can answer You as a person who disagrees with linguists.Some linguists tend to see Caucasian languages as one family including Kartvelian, Nakh, Abkhaz/Adyghe, Avar, Lak, Lezgi, Darwa languages, and some small others.
I would disgree with that and some scholars disagree to. There are surely some relations, as those people are neighbours- but those languages are to different one from the other.
Lets try to make some groupings so You can immagine better:
A)Adyghe,/Cherkes,/Kabardian , Abazin/Abkhaz and Ubykh are closly related and speak Northwest caucasian languages. They have a very similar identity .
B)Kartvels(Georgians),Mingrels, Laz , Svan and some others speak south caucasian languages
C)The last group is the Nakh-Daghestani group and is further divided in:
Nakh: Ingush,Chechen, Bazbuch speak Nakh languages
Daghestani languages ( Are quiet different one from the other, so that understanding is mostly impossible, except some borrowed words) they can be grouped further in:
Avar-Andi…
Lak
Dargin
Lezgi
Khinalugh
Any of these groupings at least is composed of various languages, for example Lezgic languages include Tabasarani, Lezgi, Rutul, Tsahur, Agul, Udi and some others.
Further their languages are divided in dialects.

Culturally The the above mentioned A, B and C are quiet different.
Further the C group very different inside that may be due to different origins of any of those nations.
The similarities grew with the times, but it is possible to say that there is no close relation between Adyghe and lets say Lak.
However thousands of years side by side made Caucasians good neighbours and even good friends of non-Caucasians(for example Armenians, Georgians, Ossetians and Lezgins deffendet their homeland together in times of danger).
Except the above nations of the caucaus on the Caucasus liveiranic nations: Ossetians and Tati.
Close to the Cacucasus live Armenians , Talysh,, Kurds.
Further there are some Turkified nations like KUmyk, Balkar, Azeri.
In the north futher live some really Turkic people, the Nogay and close to the Caucasus live also the Khalmg Mongols , Russians…


Some more informations.
In ancient times Adyghe and Abkhaz peoples were living closer to the sea, with the Russian Turkish wars a lot of population exchange has been made o religious soil so that a lot of native Adyghe land was depopulated and repopulated with Cossak, Hamshen Armenians and Greeks.
Many Abkhaz and Adyghe left their lands, however after communist times there is a program for them to return, I have for example an Adyghe friend from turkey whose uncle came to his homeland, married a local Adyghe and the local government gave them even a house.
Me personally have been to lowland Adyghea several times, quiet a nice place I would say.
Abozt the origins of each peoples is a quiet difficult question dear friend.
There are many theories as many non more existing nations have come to Caucasus region.
For example Turkih nationalista want a lot that everybody is from Khazar and Hun origin and there are theories that Avars of daghestan are related to the Avar Kahanate, but many avars do not agree with that. As they call themselves Maarul, and some translate it as people of Ar relating themselves to Aryans.
Many about everybodies origins is unknown and won’t be perhaps ever really known.
Already during Persian, Roman empires a lot of things changed in the region.
Further Chritianization and Islamization of Cacucasus went in a mostly violent way, with rare exceptions, so that many usefull knowledge has been erased.
About fighting qualities of Adyghe.
You are right, once they were known to be good fighters, the Georgian expansion politics were made by the blood of Abkhaz/Adyghe and Ossetian fighters.
Today however ADyghe people are perhaps one of the most peacefull people on the Caucasus.
I would say You should visit Adyghea, Kabardino-Balkaria and Karachaevo-Cherkesia to see it with Your own eyes. They preserved a lot of their music and dances that will be sure very interesting for You. You can plan gebneralyy a trip through all regions of the North Caucasus as You can travel them all with a Russian visa and to get to Georgia or my Armenia is quiet easy as we are simple small countries and do not have difficult visa procedures as the Russian Federation.
If You like to do such a travel, I can give You some advices how to plan it better.
However You won’t need to much money, as people are very hospital, specially in the villages.
You could make even a on Land trip Iraq-Turkey-Georgia-Russian Caucasus(starting from Ossetia and Chechnya).


About the dresses.
On the blach and white photo seems to be an Ossetian(at least it is written like that).
Generaly the male dress wasn’T a national dress, but an evolvement of the national dress to a fight dress- it is spread over all the Cacasus and today is considered as traditional.
But You are right it has evolved on the borders of the north Caucasus.
The traditional dress was quiet similar but without the containers for munition.
What else.
Perhaps I did answer only a few f Your questions, so feel free to ask more specifically and If I can, I will answer You.

[Tjanaparh]

Here for You an ethnolinguistic map.
It doesn'T really completely correspond the trouth, but gives at least an idea.

[Tjanaparh]

Here You can read a bit about what happened to Adyghe and Abkhaz, its from Wikipedia and gives only an idea - the reality is quiet more difficult.
Further You shouldn'T see for example Georgias interest in recognize their genocide as a clear attempt, Georgians were very hostile to those north Caucasians:

Ethnic cleansing of Circassians - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Tjanaparh]

Here a very nice Adyghe Knife dance:
КъамэчIас / Танец с кинжалами / Dance with daggers - YouTube

[al-arab]

Dear Al-Arab, even if I am a specialist on DNA/RNA generally, I never stuied so much the DNA statistics of all populations, so I would prefer to not answer You question, as a non competent on Adyghe DNA.
But I can give You some information about them, perhaps it isn't the compltest one as We live quit far away from eachother now, so that Adygheans are the ones I know less than others.
First of all Abkhazians and Adygheans shouldn't be seen as different nations but as brother-tribes of one nation. Once all they were living in one big territory, but due to firstly Russian and also Georgian and Turkic expansions they are divided now. Due to their territorial division made by Stalin they have suffered. Stalin wished to erase any normal national feelings among all people, so he created those false republics that exist on ex-Soviet territory. Kabardian ,Adyghe and cherkes for instance are really same people but part of three different administratory units were in two they are only half of majority with some turkic Balkar and Karachay, who are themselves almost one nation.
Ubykhs were mostly prived of their homeland and disappeard in other countries or solved themselves between their brother tribes.
By the way, I know only a bit about Mamluks, but weren't Mamluks mixed of different nations, not only Cherkes and Georgians? I learnt at least like that, because Kazakhs also say that some of them were also part of Mamluks?!
Abou their relation to Daghestan:

Look, I can answer You as a person who disagrees with linguists.Some linguists tend to see Caucasian languages as one family including Kartvelian, Nakh, Abkhaz/Adyghe, Avar, Lak, Lezgi, Darwa languages, and some small others.
I would disgree with that and some scholars disagree to. There are surely some relations, as those people are neighbours- but those languages are to different one from the other.
Lets try to make some groupings so You can immagine better:
A)Adyghe,/Cherkes,/Kabardian , Abazin/Abkhaz and Ubykh are closly related and speak Northwest caucasian languages. They have a very similar identity .
B)Kartvels(Georgians),Mingrels, Laz , Svan and some others speak south caucasian languages
C)The last group is the Nakh-Daghestani group and is further divided in:
Nakh: Ingush,Chechen, Bazbuch speak Nakh languages
Daghestani languages ( Are quiet different one from the other, so that understanding is mostly impossible, except some borrowed words) they can be grouped further in:
Avar-Andi…
Lak
Dargin
Lezgi
Khinalugh
Any of these groupings at least is composed of various languages, for example Lezgic languages include Tabasarani, Lezgi, Rutul, Tsahur, Agul, Udi and some others.
Further their languages are divided in dialects.

Culturally The the above mentioned A, B and C are quiet different.
Further the C group very different inside that may be due to different origins of any of those nations.
The similarities grew with the times, but it is possible to say that there is no close relation between Adyghe and lets say Lak.
However thousands of years side by side made Caucasians good neighbours and even good friends of non-Caucasians(for example Armenians, Georgians, Ossetians and Lezgins deffendet their homeland together in times of danger).
Except the above nations of the caucaus on the Caucasus liveiranic nations: Ossetians and Tati.
Close to the Cacucasus live Armenians , Talysh,, Kurds.
Further there are some Turkified nations like KUmyk, Balkar, Azeri.
In the north futher live some really Turkic people, the Nogay and close to the Caucasus live also the Khalmg Mongols , Russians…


Some more informations.
In ancient times Adyghe and Abkhaz peoples were living closer to the sea, with the Russian Turkish wars a lot of population exchange has been made o religious soil so that a lot of native Adyghe land was depopulated and repopulated with Cossak, Hamshen Armenians and Greeks.
Many Abkhaz and Adyghe left their lands, however after communist times there is a program for them to return, I have for example an Adyghe friend from turkey whose uncle came to his homeland, married a local Adyghe and the local government gave them even a house.
Me personally have been to lowland Adyghea several times, quiet a nice place I would say.
Abozt the origins of each peoples is a quiet difficult question dear friend.
There are many theories as many non more existing nations have come to Caucasus region.
For example Turkih nationalista want a lot that everybody is from Khazar and Hun origin and there are theories that Avars of daghestan are related to the Avar Kahanate, but many avars do not agree with that. As they call themselves Maarul, and some translate it as people of Ar relating themselves to Aryans.
Many about everybodies origins is unknown and won’t be perhaps ever really known.
Already during Persian, Roman empires a lot of things changed in the region.
Further Chritianization and Islamization of Cacucasus went in a mostly violent way, with rare exceptions, so that many usefull knowledge has been erased.
About fighting qualities of Adyghe.
You are right, once they were known to be good fighters, the Georgian expansion politics were made by the blood of Abkhaz/Adyghe and Ossetian fighters.
Today however ADyghe people are perhaps one of the most peacefull people on the Caucasus.
I would say You should visit Adyghea, Kabardino-Balkaria and Karachaevo-Cherkesia to see it with Your own eyes. They preserved a lot of their music and dances that will be sure very interesting for You. You can plan gebneralyy a trip through all regions of the North Caucasus as You can travel them all with a Russian visa and to get to Georgia or my Armenia is quiet easy as we are simple small countries and do not have difficult visa procedures as the Russian Federation.
If You like to do such a travel, I can give You some advices how to plan it better.
However You won’t need to much money, as people are very hospital, specially in the villages.
You could make even a on Land trip Iraq-Turkey-Georgia-Russian Caucasus(starting from Ossetia and Chechnya).


About the dresses.
On the blach and white photo seems to be an Ossetian(at least it is written like that).
Generaly the male dress wasn’T a national dress, but an evolvement of the national dress to a fight dress- it is spread over all the Cacasus and today is considered as traditional.
But You are right it has evolved on the borders of the north Caucasus.
The traditional dress was quiet similar but without the containers for munition.
What else.
Perhaps I did answer only a few f Your questions, so feel free to ask more specifically and If I can, I will answer You.

Thank you very much for this fantastic post my dear friend. Very greatly that you took your time to make such very good post to me and others who might be interested.

Caucasus is such an interesting place. I would love to visit when I get the time for it/money. Would very much like to visit the land of my great-grandmothers family (Adygea, Abkhazia, Kabardino, Cherkess etc, Georgia) and all other nations in Caucasus (Armenia, Dagestan, Chechnya, Ingushetia etc.)

I think it is very beautiful that so many different tribes, cultures and languages are situated so closely on this ancient area.

In Iraq many people have a big respect for Caucasus and we had close ties through history before because of our close geographic closeness. We have Adyghe, Armenians, Chechens and Turkic peoples (Turkmen) and Kurds who live nearby Caucasus.

You are completely right. The Mamluks were not only Adyghe and Georgians. There were also Turkic peoples indeed but they were fewer. Most were from Caucasus.


A documentary about Adyghe (or Circassians as they are called by some) in Jordan.

Summary of "To Be ADIGA" (Translated) - YouTube[/URL]

Adyghe in Israel.

Faith in the Holy Land - Circassians - YouTube[/URL]

Master of Adyghe swords.

Madin PchyhaLyk'o -Master of Circassian Weapon and Violins - YouTube[/URL]

But is it truth that they were known as the best warriors in the Caucasus and that they were one of the first, if not the first people to settle in Caucasus. Unfortunately the Arabic pages about Adyghe don't tell much about their ancestry or early history in Caucasus. I bet there is more about this in Russian sources but I don't speak Russian.

I found this link about Adyghe people in Russian. I know it's Wikipedia so maybe it is not good.

http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%90%...B9%D1%86%D1%8B

About Ossetians. I know they are an Iranian people who came from Sarmatians. How is there relationship with Adyghe people? I know Georgians had mixed relation with Adyghe nation as you told.

And what about the Armenians? Did you have friendly ties with Adyghe? And what are the people in North Caucausus that you Armenians are most close to?

And I did not know that Abhazia people are the same as Adyghe. So in fact Adyghe has much territory in Caucasus. From Adygea to Nalchick and Abkhazia. Very interesting. I also can see on the map that there lives a small population of Armenians near Adygea territory? How come that? Is there relations friendly? I hope so.

Sorry for the many questions.

Again, thank you very much for your post Arevapasht. Appreciate much.

[Tjanaparh]

Thank you very much for this fantastic post my dear friend. Very greatly that you took your time to make such very good post to me and others who might be interested.
Caucasus is such an interesting place. I would love to visit when I get the time for it/money. Would very much like to visit the land of my great-grandmothers family (Adygea, Abkhazia, Kabardino, Cherkess etc, Georgia) and all other nations in Caucasus (Armenia, Dagestan, Chechnya, Ingushetia etc.) I think it is very beautiful that so many different tribes, cultures and languages are situated so closely on this ancient area. In Iraq many people have a big respect for Caucasus and we had close ties through history before because of our close geographic closeness. We have Adyghe, Armenians, Chechens and Turkic peoples (Turkmen) and Kurds who live nearby Caucasus.
You are completely right. The Mamluks were not only Adyghe and Georgians. There were also Turkic peoples indeed but they were fewer. Most were from Caucasus.
A documentary about Adyghe (or Circassians as they are called by some) in Jordan.
About Ossetians. I know they are an Iranian people who came from Sarmatians. How is there relationship with Adyghe people? I know Georgians had mixed relation with Adyghe nation as you told. And what about the Armenians? Did you have friendly ties with Adyghe? And what are the people in North Caucausus that you Armenians are most close to?
And I did not know that Abhazia people are the same as Adyghe. So in fact Adyghe has much territory in Caucasus. From Adygea to Nalchick and Abkhazia. Very interesting. I also can see on the map that there lives a small population of Armenians near Adygea territory? How come that? Is there relations friendly? I hope so.
Sorry for the many questions.
Again, thank you very much for your post Arevapasht. Appreciate much.

Dear friend, You have not to ask Excuse for Your questions, please!
By the way, thank You that You mentioned the Turkmen, I have forgotten to mention that there are some Turkmen north of the Caucasus, mainly in Stavropol region, Turkems are really very spread almost everywhere in south Russia, but they are living in small groups. Can You tell me a bit more about the Chechens in Iraq, how long do they live there? Since the wars with Russian empire?
About the the Mamluks in Soviet Kazakhstan there was even one film called “Sultan Beybars”.
The documentaries You posted I will watch tomorrow as now I use again the expensive internet, tomorrow I will take the flat rate one for some hours.
About Ossetians, You are right, they are related to Sarmatians and had once much bigger territories. Their relations with Adighe is generally good, but Ossetians have some problems with Ingush due to borders if I am right?! Sometimes they are very hostile one to the other(sure it doesn’t mean everybody is like that, but I have seen often that they beat up eachother or insult eachother- except historical reasons it has also modern political reasons I think).
About us Armenians and Adyghe – we are long time divided and share no borders, between us is Georgia , so our contacts are limited.
But among the Adyghe live 2 very specific Armenian groups, and in Abkhazia there are also these groups.
Why specific?
One, You saw on the map may be the Hamshen Armenians.
Hamshen Armenians were originally from Artaz(now it is in Iran), they fled from the Arabs during Arab expansion to the blacksea coast.
Their leader was called Hamam Amatuni and their new settlement they called after him Hamamashen(Hamambuilt) that later transformed to Hamshen.
Many of Hamshen Armenians later became Muslim and still live in Turkey in the places near to old Hamshen , the Chritian Hamshen Armenians, and some of the Muslim ones fled from Turkey during Ottoman-Russian wars – as Russians kicked Adyghe out Turks kicked Hamshenis out, and as Turks accepted Adyghe, Russians accepted Hamshenis. Another wave of Hamshenis came during the Armenian genocide to Abkhazia and Russia.
The second goup are Northcaucasian Armenians. The North Caucasus accepted many Armenians long time ago, many fled from Christianization for example to the North(the last priest of Armenian traditional blief , Slak Kakosyan(his family name comes from Caucasus – Caucasian-Kakosyan) was originaly from there, where his family could keep our tradition until they returned to Armenia.

Generally Armenians and Adyghe have very good relations – many are intermarried!
My friend , whom I have cted here when I mention Basaev was a cruel person, is half Armenian half Adyghe.
He faught in Artsakh against Azeris(and Basaev was on Azeri side), and he faught in Abkhazia against Georgians and Basaev was fighting on his side in the same place.
My friend fulfilled his duty as patriot for both his origins.
Generaly Armenians are quiet well with every Caucasian – culturally Armenians are indoeuropeans so Ossetians and Tolish would be our closest eoples. But we are as well very close to Georgians and Lezgins( so we are really culturally like brothers).
Also some Chechens say that we are somehow related. Generaly we have good relations to any Caucasians.
Surely there are soe recent politics (for example in Azerbaijan Lezgins hate Armenians, but only oe of the youth as they grew with some false propaganda, also in every nation there were bad people and Armenians aren’t an exception, we had our own Basaevs who killed civilians I a cruel way) – but as I told we have good relations to all. In northern Russia, were there are some skinheads we even see eachother as real brothers.
However I would repeat, to us the closest people in the Caucasus for cultural and ethnic reasons are Georgians, Ossetians, Lezgic nations and Tolish(however it does depend on the region of Armenia where someone comes from- from my origins Tolish, Georgians and Ossetians are the closest, as with Lezgic nations I have almost no relation- as the reagion they are connected to is far from mine(I come from Armenian part of Georgia and have some ancestors from ex-armenian part of Iran).
To make me understand better – Abkhaz and Adyghe are a bit different- but same different as two tribes of one nation- what You cannot see on the map I posted, that in Adyghea live Abaza people(Abkhazians) .
How You also see , Adyghe(as my half Adyghe friend) see Abkhz as their people and many faught on Abkhazian side.
Also Abkhaz and Adyghe helped a lot Ossetians in their conflict with Gergia(that is purely a stupid conflict of some stupid Georgian politics and some stupid Rssian politics and has nothing to do with the relation of simple Georgian people to Ossetians, simply the first Georgian president was a racist and Stalin during soviet times also favoured a future conflict in that region).

That is all for the moment.

[Tjanaparh]

About the wikipedia link I have forgotten - it doesn not say something wrong, but the information is reduced, the english link is more informative.
You will surely find many nfos in ussian language on Adyghe culture, but remember that some painfull themes, like the ethnic cleansing of Ubykh and others are still a theme that is not much discussed(inn that sense there is not any agressive attitude inside Russia but a lack of knowledge and a reason of russian politics that do not talk at all on this blach chapter of history - the best is You avpid Russian and Turkish sources to inform on this theme and ask only really Adyghe people, that are very honest on such subjects whereever they live - for example my Adyghe friend from Turkey could explain me quiet well some things on how everything happened with his ancestors).

[al-arab]

Dear friend, You have not to ask Excuse for Your questions, please!
By the way, thank You that You mentioned the Turkmen, I have forgotten to mention that there are some Turkmen north of the Caucasus, mainly in Stavropol region, Turkems are really very spread almost everywhere in south Russia, but they are living in small groups. Can You tell me a bit more about the Chechens in Iraq, how long do they live there? Since the wars with Russian empire?
About the the Mamluks in Soviet Kazakhstan there was even one film called “Sultan Beybars”.
The documentaries You posted I will watch tomorrow as now I use again the expensive internet, tomorrow I will take the flat rate one for some hours.
About Ossetians, You are right, they are related to Sarmatians and had once much bigger territories. Their relations with Adighe is generally good, but Ossetians have some problems with Ingush due to borders if I am right?! Sometimes they are very hostile one to the other(sure it doesn’t mean everybody is like that, but I have seen often that they beat up eachother or insult eachother- except historical reasons it has also modern political reasons I think).
About us Armenians and Adyghe – we are long time divided and share no borders, between us is Georgia , so our contacts are limited.
But among the Adyghe live 2 very specific Armenian groups, and in Abkhazia there are also these groups.
Why specific?
One, You saw on the map may be the Hamshen Armenians.
Hamshen Armenians were originally from Artaz(now it is in Iran), they fled from the Arabs during Arab expansion to the blacksea coast.
Their leader was called Hamam Amatuni and their new settlement they called after him Hamamashen(Hamambuilt) that later transformed to Hamshen.
Many of Hamshen Armenians later became Muslim and still live in Turkey in the places near to old Hamshen , the Chritian Hamshen Armenians, and some of the Muslim ones fled from Turkey during Ottoman-Russian wars – as Russians kicked Adyghe out Turks kicked Hamshenis out, and as Turks accepted Adyghe, Russians accepted Hamshenis. Another wave of Hamshenis came during the Armenian genocide to Abkhazia and Russia.
The second goup are Northcaucasian Armenians. The North Caucasus accepted many Armenians long time ago, many fled from Christianization for example to the North(the last priest of Armenian traditional blief , Slak Kakosyan(his family name comes from Caucasus – Caucasian-Kakosyan) was originaly from there, where his family could keep our tradition until they returned to Armenia.

Generally Armenians and Adyghe have very good relations – many are intermarried!
My friend , whom I have cted here when I mention Basaev was a cruel person, is half Armenian half Adyghe.
He faught in Artsakh against Azeris(and Basaev was on Azeri side), and he faught in Abkhazia against Georgians and Basaev was fighting on his side in the same place.
My friend fulfilled his duty as patriot for both his origins.
Generaly Armenians are quiet well with every Caucasian – culturally Armenians are indoeuropeans so Ossetians and Tolish would be our closest eoples. But we are as well very close to Georgians and Lezgins( so we are really culturally like brothers).
Also some Chechens say that we are somehow related. Generaly we have good relations to any Caucasians.
Surely there are soe recent politics (for example in Azerbaijan Lezgins hate Armenians, but only oe of the youth as they grew with some false propaganda, also in every nation there were bad people and Armenians aren’t an exception, we had our own Basaevs who killed civilians I a cruel way) – but as I told we have good relations to all. In northern Russia, were there are some skinheads we even see eachother as real brothers.
However I would repeat, to us the closest people in the Caucasus for cultural and ethnic reasons are Georgians, Ossetians, Lezgic nations and Tolish(however it does depend on the region of Armenia where someone comes from- from my origins Tolish, Georgians and Ossetians are the closest, as with Lezgic nations I have almost no relation- as the reagion they are connected to is far from mine(I come from Armenian part of Georgia and have some ancestors from ex-armenian part of Iran).
To make me understand better – Abkhaz and Adyghe are a bit different- but same different as two tribes of one nation- what You cannot see on the map I posted, that in Adyghea live Abaza people(Abkhazians) .
How You also see , Adyghe(as my half Adyghe friend) see Abkhz as their people and many faught on Abkhazian side.
Also Abkhaz and Adyghe helped a lot Ossetians in their conflict with Gergia(that is purely a stupid conflict of some stupid Georgian politics and some stupid Rssian politics and has nothing to do with the relation of simple Georgian people to Ossetians, simply the first Georgian president was a racist and Stalin during soviet times also favoured a future conflict in that region).

That is all for the moment.

Thank you very much my dear friend for another great post.

Some Chechens moved to Iraq, Jordan and Syria afther the Russian conquest as you guessed correctly. There are not many compared to Adyghe, Armenians and Turkmen but I think there are 10.000-15.000 thousand. They are respected and were known for their craftsmanship. Adyghe in Iraq has a special place in Ottoman Iraqi history because they were among the elite who ruled the country (of course only informally) because the territory of Iraw was ruled by different tribes in Sunni, Shia and Kurdish areas.

No problem at all. The documentary is about Adyghe people who came to Jordan after the Ottoman Empire collapsed.

Yes, I also remember problems between Ossetians and Ingush. Especially after the Beslan tragedy.

Very interesting to hear about different Armenian groups. Thank you very much. Was your first religion similar to the Zahoristian religion (sorry, can't remember how to spell it).

That is good, the friendly relationships between Armenian and Adyghe despite their different location. I know that Adyghe are Muslims and Georgians mainly Christian but are they related the two peoples? They are neighbours, caucassian peoples? Is their language similar?

I suspected that Ossetians and Armenians are close because of their shared Indo-European ancestry. This is funny because my great-grandmother was half Adyghe (father) and half Ossetian/Georgian (Bagrationi). Maybe I have some distant Armenian ancestry. Some say the Bagrationi were orginally Armenians. Don't know if that is truth because I am no expert in Caucasus nor do I know Georgian or Armenian language.

Yes, politics are very bad for common relationship. It is all about power. My country, Iraq, is unfortunately good example of that. We should have an responsibility because of our ancient history (cradle of civilization) but we have been divided by politics, but Alhamdulillah the majority of civilians
between the groups are still very close andi intermarry often.

Dear friend, could you tell me about the Adygea, Abhkaz and Kabardino lands? I have heard that it is very beautiful. Adygea I think called their land the land between the mountains and see.

Last question. It is correct that the Adyghe people were the first settlers in Caucasus? And is there language similar to Georgian? (both Caucassian languages).

Fell free to ask me any questions in the future about Iraq, the Arab world etc. I will gladly answer.

[al-arab]

About the wikipedia link I have forgotten - it doesn not say something wrong, but the information is reduced, the english link is more informative.
You will surely find many nfos in ussian language on Adyghe culture, but remember that some painfull themes, like the ethnic cleansing of Ubykh and others are still a theme that is not much discussed(inn that sense there is not any agressive attitude inside Russia but a lack of knowledge and a reason of russian politics that do not talk at all on this blach chapter of history - the best is You avpid Russian and Turkish sources to inform on this theme and ask only really Adyghe people, that are very honest on such subjects whereever they live - for example my Adyghe friend from Turkey could explain me quiet well some things on how everything happened with his ancestors).

Thank you very much my friend for that advice. Unfortunately that is the ugly face of politics. I imagine the same is the case with Turkish sources about the Armenian genocide and Russian sources about the Caucasus genocides.

[Tjanaparh]

Thank you very much my dear friend for another great post.
Some Chechens moved to Iraq, Jordan and Syria afther the Russian conquest as you guessed correctly. There are not many compared to Adyghe, Armenians and Turkmen but I think there are 10.000-15.000 thousand. They are respected and were known for their craftsmanship. Adyghe in Iraq has a special place in Ottoman Iraqi history because they were among the elite who ruled the country (of course only informally) because the territory of Iraw was ruled by different tribes in Sunni, Shia and Kurdish areas. No problem at all. The documentary is about Adyghe people who came to Jordan after the Ottoman Empire collapsed. Yes, I also remember problems between Ossetians and Ingush. Especially after the Beslan tragedy. Very interesting to hear about different Armenian groups. Thank you very much. Was your first religion similar to the Zahoristian religion (sorry, can't remember how to spell it). That is good, the friendly relationships between Armenian and Adyghe despite their different location. I know that Adyghe are Muslims and Georgians mainly Christian but are they related the two peoples? They are neighbours, caucassian peoples? Is their language similar? I suspected that Ossetians and Armenians are close because of their shared Indo-European ancestry. This is funny because my great-grandmother was half Adyghe (father) and half Ossetian/Georgian (Bagrationi). Maybe I have some distant Armenian ancestry. Some say the Bagrationi were orginally Armenians. Don't know if that is truth because I am no expert in Caucasus nor do I know Georgian or Armenian language. Yes, politics are very bad for common relationship. It is all about power. My country, Iraq, is unfortunately good example of that. We should have an responsibility because of our ancient history (cradle of civilization) but we have been divided by politics, but Alhamdulillah the majority of civilians between the groups are still very close andi intermarry often. Dear friend, could you tell me about the Adygea, Abhkaz and Kabardino lands? I have heard that it is very beautiful. Adygea I think called their land the land between the mountains and see. Last question. It is correct that the Adyghe people were the first settlers in Caucasus? And is there language similar to Georgian? (both Caucassian languages). Fell free to ask me any questions in the future about Iraq, the Arab world etc. I will gladly answer.

Dear Al Arab, may I ask, do You know what kraft Chechen mainly produce in Iraq? What are they famous for? About Adyghe in Jordan land I heard already several times – tomorrow or aftertomorrow I will watch Your videos too.
Our belief(I follow it) is somehow related to Zoroastrian(Zartushti) belief and Vedic belief. However Zartusht(Zoroaster) was a reformer that tried to get rid of some bed things that happened trough the years within the ancient belief, while in Armenia these bad things(what You call „idol whorship“) happened to come later, so that Zartushts reform didn’t play much role on Armenian belief untill some politics of Persia tried to impose their rites to Armenia.About Bagrationi – You Are right, Georgian Bagrationi come from Armenian Bagratuni, but Bagratuni/Bagrationi aren’t Armenians neither – most probably they have Persian origins(even if ome Armenian historians relate them to Jews, but this is more for political reasons of christians – they related almost everybody to jews…)
About Adyghe lands. I have been only tot he Republic of Adygea , the other lands I didn’t visit personally.Adygea has very nice lowlands with some lakes and nice mountains – generally the Adyghe/Abkhaz lands have a mild climte all the year , it is one of agriculturaly most advanced regions in Russian Federation. I remember a video of an Ubykh who still was alive after he left Russa for Turkey and came back in the 90-ies , and he was crying when he ate an Apple of Maykop(the capital of Adygea) – he told that from his childhood he remembered that nice taste of Maykop apples. Adygea and Abkhazia are really so mild compared to their bordering regions.
About the first settlers on the Caucasus is a really difficult question! Many claim that tob e – what I can surely say that as long as we existed they existed(in our history they are described ) – but that question is quiet difficult to nswer as the reak knowledge on that is lost – it is only for sure that most of Caucasians are really very longy time on the Caucasus(for example the Lezgic tribes of today existed even 2000 years ago).
The language, as i tried to describe before is not at all simmilar to Georgian – the Caucasian languagestheory was created by linguists to simplify everything.
Kartvelian languages(Georgian)
Adyghe/Abkhaz
Nakh/Daghestani

Are perhaps as much related as Semitic and Indoeuropean, simply being neighbours surely made Caucasians exchange words and ways of pronounciation.

About the Arab world! I asked You already a question , but I forgotten the theme where I asked You so I didn’t see if You answered.
I repeat it here.
There is a famous epic in Iran called Shahname.
In the text of Shahname there is an Arab king called Zahak(in armenian mythology he appears too as Azhdahak).
According tot he story Zahak was at the begining a good but ver proud ruler so that the evil spirit chose him to make bad things(however that isn’t important form y question).
According tot he Shahname the devil turns Zahaks mind starting to work as his kitchen chief and making him try meat!
The Shahname states that before Arabs weren’t eating meat and were purely vegetarians.
My question is, more a question on Your oppinion, may that be true? Are there any indications that could be true?
Simply Shaname is very famous here as it partly retells our own myths, so we had many conversations on that theme.

[Tjanaparh]

Thank you very much my friend for that advice. Unfortunately that is the ugly face of politics. I imagine the same is the case with Turkish sources about the Armenian genocide and Russian sources about the Caucasus genocides.

Well that is true- Adyghe/Abkhazian lands are till now of geopolitical interests of Turkey, Russia and partly Georgia - so evrybody of the first two tries to use this sad history for their own purposes.

[al-arab]

Dear Al Arab, may I ask, do You know what kraft Chechen mainly produce in Iraq? What are they famous for? About Adyghe in Jordan land I heard already several times – tomorrow or aftertomorrow I will watch Your videos too.
Our belief(I follow it) is somehow related to Zoroastrian(Zartushti) belief and Vedic belief. However Zartusht(Zoroaster) was a reformer that tried to get rid of some bed things that happened trough the years within the ancient belief, while in Armenia these bad things(what You call „idol whorship“) happened to come later, so that Zartushts reform didn’t play much role on Armenian belief untill some politics of Persia tried to impose their rites to Armenia.About Bagrationi – You Are right, Georgian Bagrationi come from Armenian Bagratuni, but Bagratuni/Bagrationi aren’t Armenians neither – most probably they have Persian origins(even if ome Armenian historians relate them to Jews, but this is more for political reasons of christians – they related almost everybody to jews…)
About Adyghe lands. I have been only tot he Republic of Adygea , the other lands I didn’t visit personally.Adygea has very nice lowlands with some lakes and nice mountains – generally the Adyghe/Abkhaz lands have a mild climte all the year , it is one of agriculturaly most advanced regions in Russian Federation. I remember a video of an Ubykh who still was alive after he left Russa for Turkey and came back in the 90-ies , and he was crying when he ate an Apple of Maykop(the capital of Adygea) – he told that from his childhood he remembered that nice taste of Maykop apples. Adygea and Abkhazia are really so mild compared to their bordering regions.
About the first settlers on the Caucasus is a really difficult question! Many claim that tob e – what I can surely say that as long as we existed they existed(in our history they are described ) – but that question is quiet difficult to nswer as the reak knowledge on that is lost – it is only for sure that most of Caucasians are really very longy time on the Caucasus(for example the Lezgic tribes of today existed even 2000 years ago).
The language, as i tried to describe before is not at all simmilar to Georgian – the Caucasian languagestheory was created by linguists to simplify everything.
Kartvelian languages(Georgian)
Adyghe/Abkhaz
Nakh/Daghestani

Are perhaps as much related as Semitic and Indoeuropean, simply being neighbours surely made Caucasians exchange words and ways of pronounciation.

About the Arab world! I asked You already a question , but I forgotten the theme where I asked You so I didn’t see if You answered.
I repeat it here.
There is a famous epic in Iran called Shahname.
In the text of Shahname there is an Arab king called Zahak(in armenian mythology he appears too as Azhdahak).
According tot he story Zahak was at the begining a good but ver proud ruler so that the evil spirit chose him to make bad things(however that isn’t important form y question).
According tot he Shahname the devil turns Zahaks mind starting to work as his kitchen chief and making him try meat!
The Shahname states that before Arabs weren’t eating meat and were purely vegetarians.
My question is, more a question on Your oppinion, may that be true? Are there any indications that could be true?
Simply Shaname is very famous here as it partly retells our own myths, so we had many conversations on that theme.

Thank you very much for another excellent post.

My dear friend. I promise to answer your questions today but right now I unfortunately need to leave the computer. If I somehow forget than if you can just write me an PM and I will reply.