afghan pashtun dna to be posted soon

[badmash_khel]

This is very truth brother. The people you refer to as Semetic and who lived in Khuzestan were Semetic people from ancient Iraq.

If I remember correct there are even still some clear traces of ancient Mesopotamia/Babylonia in South-Eastern Iran (Khuzestan) near to Persian Gulf.

I think that the J Haplogroup found in Iran is due to ancient populations from Semetic Iraq. I know that nearly all of the Sadah in Iran came to Iran from Iraq. I also know there is a big Arab minority in Khuzestan who wants to be part of Iraq but has been persecuted by Iranian government.

But do you know if Semetic people are related to Indo-European people? They must descend from same branch of people no? Or I mistaken?

I hope that DMXX can answer my questions in this post and the one I posted before.

I will leave it to DMXX to answer your question about the relation of Semites to Indo-Europeans as he is more knowledgeable.

I am not talking about just people of Khuzestan who clearly are semitic but other Iranians as well. There is a alot of J admixture in northern Iranian Azeris, something like 25%-30%. I don't know how much J haplogroup Khuzestanis have but it is surely above 50%.

I once talked to an Iranian from Mashad about the khuzestanis but he said they are shia so they don't feel discriminated in Iran except that Farsi is the main langauge of Iran. I don't think Iran would give away Khuzestan to Iraq no matter what because the biggest oil fields in Iran are located around that area. Another point is that there are minorities in every country. Iraq has kurds and Turkomans and Iran has the Arabs in the south.

[DMXX]

Interesting thing is that Pashtun oral history and royal court historians discuss movement of outsider ethnic groups into Pashtun areas. On incursions into Delhi, some tribesmen from Afghanistan also took wives from amongst the conquered. Ahmad Shah for instance married a mughal princess. In other instances, outsiders were imported for business reasons. For instance, Britishers verified Hindus having been imported into FATA for business/banking by the tribes themselves which allowed for stabilization of dealing with money matters between clans.

There is a lot of data out there on tribal lineages of the major Pashtun tribes. To gain the "purest" sample, why not access hereditary tribal maliks or gain the Afghan government's support for such a project which would then provide a way to get at such samples? It could potentially provide a way to measure the accuracy of the oral history regarding relationships between tribes and mass migrations of tribes.

On the Pakistani side of the durand line, Britishers kept very detailed records of local tribal leaders as well.

For instance, the DNA of the swati royals and the Safi tribal leaders and the Khattak tribal leader might diminish "noise."

With all the work and money going into it, it doesnt seem like it would add to the costs significantly.

My father in law told me that in Waziristan, for instance, in the yargu khel clan area, the lands are exactly positioned in such a way so as to allow for a family tree to be constructed.

I guess what I am saying is that how the data is collected seems key to interpreting results. If I walk into Jalalabad and randomly select 100 people and ask for the DNA it may give a view of the genetic origin, on average, of the populace... but does it provide a historical view into ethnic roots?

Thank you for providing this information. Regarding your question, I am of the opinion that autosomal DNA analysis of this nature (i.e. venturing into one city and sampling X unrelated individuals) can only provide us with data that facilitates the creation of broad conclusions. In the future we will hopefully see fine-scale genome testing of villages with specific oral traditions, religious sects or isolated linguistic groups to ascertain whether their claims are substantiated or not.

The above has already been carried out on the "Kalash" of Pakistan (do not believe sampling site has been disclosed). As some of you may be aware, they have been associated with Alexander the Great's incursion into Asia. Y-Chromosome and mitochondrial evidence suggests a Greek/Southeast European input is likely negligible given the lack of ancestral lines which share common mutations with European ones (Qamar et al. only found one "Pathan" individual belonging to Y-DNA Haplogroup E whose STR's indicated mutual recent ancestry with Balkan men).

Just in the last 270 years there have been multiple mass migration events related to war. Even now, say if the economy in Kabul overtakes the economy in Peshawar... a population shift can occur where Pakistan nationals try to move to where the money is better and then a DNA snap shot summarizes a population genetic profile. But that doesnt mean that the local tribes in the rural areas surrounding Kabul share that genetic ancestory.

The KP region and the Afghan basin both have had different conquerers themselves (e.g. the Sikhs reached a certain point and never entered Afghanistan). So I guess what I am saying is that if you were to find a Afridi tribal Lord and take his DNA versus the common man's DNA, which one is more reflective of the Pashtun ethnic group's baseline genetic lineage?

It seems like the only way to eliminate noise and confounders is to attempt and correlate sampling with history.

For instance, there are some Russian soldiers who converted to Islam and are now living in Kandahar province. It is unlikely that someone would have randomly gotten one of their children's samples... but if it were included in the analysis, attempting to broadly interpret those results to all of the province might lead us to chase European windmills.

I was not aware of Russian assimilation into the Pakhtun cultural strongholds; would you say this is/was a common occurrence? The issue of Russian admixture in Central Asia is a tenuous one. I have been assured by one fellow Kazakh genealogist that, at least in Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan, any North European-like autosomal components are likely native in origin as Russian-Uzbek/Kazakh intermarriage was exceedingly rare.

I am in agreement with the rest of your post.

Interesting news on Afghan DNA.

I am half Arab Iraqi and half Arab Saudi and I know that approximately 80 percent of both Arab Iraqis and Arab Saudis (both countries have a significant minority of non-Arabs (about 15-20 percent) such as Kurds, Turkmen, Assyrians (who are related to Arabs though) and Iranis, Pakistanis, Indians, Afghans, Bangladeshi, Fillipino etc. in Saudi Arabia.) have the haplogroup J Y-DNA.

I know that Haplogroup J1 and J2 are both from the Haplogroup J (Y-DNA).

Apparently J2 orginates from ancient Iraq while the origin of J1 is not yet known but people say it is from the Middle East in an area that covers Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Oman, Jordan and the Gulf States down south to Ethiopia, Eritrea and Somalia etc. (Horn of Africa)

It is highly unlikely that Haplogroup J (or even J1-M267) originated anywhere south of Mesopotamia based on the lack of STR and SNP diversity in the Arabian Peninsula.

I am of the opinion that Haplogroup J1 originated in the approximate region of the Zagros mountains, northern Mesopotamia and southern Anatolia based on the presence of non-J1c3-P58 lineages in that region.

In the Arabian Peninsula, J1c3d-L147 (formerly known as J1e prior to ISOGG's 2010 update) is the subclade which forms the majority of Arabian J1. This is the lineage which has popularly been associated with the expansion of Semitic languages across the Near-East.

We know for certain that that ancient IRaq was one of the first Semetic cultures and that all Semitic people generally are related (this explains that an ancient Semetic people like Assyrians in Iraq also are from the Haplogroup J-DNA as the Arabs)

Now I have a question since I do not know much about DNA.

Is it possible that J-DNA and Semetic peoples originated in the Horn of Africa and moved to the Arabian Peninsular?

No, for the reason stated above; Y-DNA J1 STR and SNP diversity is greater north of the Arabian Peninsula. A migration of nomads in a north-to-south direction is therefore more feasible, and actually in agreement with the ancient diversity of Semitic languages.

According to the Wikipedia (English version) the Haplogroup J originates in either Soutwest Asia or the Arabian Peninsular. So no mention of Horn of Africa. But according to sciencist are all people not from Africa or is this a lie?

Haplogroup J is tens of thousands of years old, although it is not older than the calculated split between Haplogroup A and paragroup BT. Thus, an exceedingly prehistoric origin of Haplogroup J does not contradict the conclusion reached by Dr. Wells and his associates that all humans can trace both their maternal and paternal lines back to Africa.

If Haplogroup originates in either Soutwest Asia or Arabian Peninsular it makes the theory of the haplogroup J descending form the earliest Middle Eastern farmers/People in ancient Mesopotamia (and areas close to) plausible does it not?

As Haplogroup J1 and J2 (let alone Haplogroup J itself) pre-date the agricultural boon in the Near-East, that theory is invalid.

Rather, it is likely the individuals who developed agriculture, irrigation techniques and urban civilisations in the Near-East were bearers of Haplogroup J (speculation, as no ancient DNA from early Neolithic Iraqi sites have been examined).

But I also read that a lot of Europeans originates (10.000 years ago) from ancient Mesopotamia (which was situated in todays Iraq, Nortwest Syria, Southeast Turkey, southwestern Iran (close to the Persian Gulf) and northeastern Saudi Arabia. But when I look at Y-DNA (from father to son etc.) I see that very few Europeans have the Haplogroup J-DNA?

Based on the presence of R1a*-M420 and upstream paragroups to R1b1a2-M269 in the Near-East (particularly Iran and Turkey), it appears as if most European paternal lineages were once resident in the Near-East at some point in time.

I have not seen any recent evidence of Mesopotamia in particular being responsible for the genesis of major West Eurasian lines.

I see on the internet that Haplogrup J's ancestor is Haplogrup IJ and I have learned that Haplogrup I is the earliest known haplogroup in Europe (where the ancient Europeans) shared. This I is common in Scandinavia, Balkan and Eastern/Central Europe (20-25 percent of Poles have this for example)

So are scientist referring to the ancient Middle Eastern people who had the IJ haplogrup (ancestor of Haplogroup J) and not haplogrup J as we see in todays Middle Eastern populations?

Paragroup IJ has not been discovered in any living individuals to date. The presence of Haplogroup I in Turkey, the Caucasus and Iran complicates the simplified scenario of Haplogroup I and J being contemporaries spreading west and east respectively from a common point near Anatolia.

I hope you can help me with this mystery.

A mystery it shall remain, unfortunately, as even the most astute genetic genealogists are having a hard time quantifying the data we currently have. More sampling and more deep SNP investigation is required.

Human beings are a complex species and our migration patterns seem to represent that. Much of the material on the Internet regarding, for instance, the dispersal of Haplogroups I and J is pure conjecture which sometimes crosses the threshold of necessary simplification into misinformation.

Also I learned recently that Arabs from North Africa, Egypt and outside of the Middle East do not have such a high Haplogroup J DNA percentage as Arabs from the Middle East in places such as Iraq, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Gulf and Yemen, Oman.

According to results only about 20 percent of people in whole NOrth Africa (Egypt included) have Haplogrup J. Most have Haplogrup E which is typical for Berbers and people from Sahel.

What you have recently learned is, as I stated above, simplification turned to misinformation; Haplogroup J in the Near-East can very roughly be divided by frequencies of J1 vs. J2, with Anatolia, the Caucasus and Iran having an excess of the latter.

I am not (yet) particularly familiar with Africa's Y-DNA landscape, although Haplogroup E appears to be most diverse around the Horn. Without yet looking deeper into the matter, it is possible the discrepancy in Haplogroup J and E frequencies between North African and Arabian Arabs is due to the former retaining their pre-Islamic lineages (i.e. pre-Arabization).

[FONT=Courier New][FONT=Verdana]And do you think that the ancient Sumerians could in fact be the earliest known Semetic people of origin? I mean apparently they did not speak a Semitic language (this is only a theory people do not know about their true origins) but this does not mean that they do not have a "Semetic gene" (I call J Semetic gene).

As linguists have discerned the Sumerian language to be an isolate, no.

For example I saw that many Southern Italians have Haplogrup E and J DNA but they speak a Indo-European language (Italian) and not Semetic.

As mentioned earlier, Haplogroup J (and even J1) pre-dates the estimated date of proto-Semitic. Thus, an association cannot be made.

In Iraq the Marsh Arabs were also thought to be the closest descandents of the ancient Sumerians (They always lived in the same area the ancient Sumerians did) and they have the same gene as Arabs. Could this be a confirmation that the earliest inhabitants of the Middle East probably where Semetic people? Also apparently Assyrians and Arabs (as I said before) have the same Y-DNA. (J) and both are Semetic people and speak Semetic languages.

What are you thoughts on all this?

Unless archaeologically confirmed Sumerian remains are tested for Y-DNA, I have no stance on this topic.

I refer you to the Aramaic DNA Project run by my associate and friend, Mr. Givargidze, which demonstrate that Assyrian/Surayo Y-Chromosomes are not restricted to Haplogroup J.

And if you can, can you provide me some Arabic sources that deal with DNA. This is not a popular subject yet and I struggle to find reliable information.

My worry is that a lot of people use this in politics and therefore I would like first-hand information. In short the information you will give me, if you reply, what will this be based on? From local work or work in Western countries/Media?

The following sources are from peer-reviewed studies on Arabian Y-Chromosomes. I have, in the past, worked with these papers;

In search of the genetic footprints of Sumerians: a survey of Y-chromosome and mtDNA variation in the Marsh Arabs of Iraq. (This is the Marsh Arab study you were referring to.)
Genetic structure of Tunisian ethnic groups revealed by paternal lineages.
Genetic differences among North African Berber and Arab-speaking populations revealed by Y-STR diversity.
Genetic structure of Kuwaiti population revealed by Y-STR diversity.
Haplotype frequencies for 17 Y-STR loci (AmpFlSTRY-filer) in a Moroccan population sample.
The emergence of Y-chromosome haplogroup J1e among Arabic-speaking populations.
Genetic structure of nomadic Bedouin from Kuwait.
Y-chromosome diversity characterizes the Gulf of Oman.
Origin, diffusion, and differentiation of Y-chromosome haplogroups E and J: inferences on the neolithization of Europe and later migratory events in the Mediterranean area.

I have underlined those studies which I would recommend to you as a first "port of call".

One thing to note here is that so called Altaic speaking uzbeks and Turkmens are not purely mongoloid and they are mostly a mix of Iranic and Turkic. As you may know Iranic tribes (Scythians) lived in Central Asia before the arrival of Turkic tribes (uzbeks, turkoman etc). There are aproximately 11 million Tajiks in Uzbekistan. Due to government favouritism towards uzbeks and other reasons Tajiks of Uzbekistan have been forced to declare their ethnicity as Uzbek which is also their nationality. The farsi speaking Tajiks are the biggest part of population in Samarqand and Bukhara, the two big cities in Uzbekistan. So samples taken from Uzbekistan can be a bit misleading. The people of Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan might be Altaic speaking but their genetic make is certainly not purely mongoloid. Just like Azeris there are many turkified Tajiks among them.

Yes, I am familiar with the Tajiki Uzbeks currently in Samarqand and Buxara. I should point out that the Iranic-speaking people in Central Asia who once lived across east Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan (Soghdians, Bactrians) were a settled agricultural population. The Saka (and Dahae) lived immediately west of them.

Genetically, Azeri Iranians are closest to other West Iranic speaking populations, as shown by recent Y-DNA and mtDNA studies from Armenian and Azeri Iranian studies. However, autosomal evidence of Turkic input (presumed from East Asian and Siberian components) is certainly present. I myself am approximately 4% "Turkic" if those values are combined.

Its clear from history and DNA testings that Iranians have significant semitic J contribution which makes sense since Iranian tribes arrived in the Iranian plateu as immigrants from further north and east. There were already established populations in places like Khuzestan when persians arrived on the scene.

There is no evidence of Semitic-speaking populations on the Iranian plateau beyond the Zagros mountains (Khuzestan actually sits on the "Arabian" side). As I discerned in a related entry on my blog, Vaêdhya, it is highly unlikely the Southwest Asian genetic component found in modern Iranians is a result of post-Sassanid Arab admixture when Armenians, a Christian Caucasian population who have maintained endogamy since ancient times, have more of it on average.

Furthermore, the trace presence of J1c3d-L147 in Iran supports the above; using the Iranian DNA Project as a reference, only 2 of the 64 individuals whose ancestors resided in Iran belong to J1c3d-L147, of which one is a Persian with a documented Seyyed bloodline.

In my opinion, the Southwest Asian component found in Iranians (which is otherwise absent in Tajiks and Pakhtuns) is of indigenous Near-Eastern composition (Kassites, Hurrians and dozens of other extinct groups resided along the Zagros).

Would it be fair to say that pashtuns and Tajiks as a whole are closer to original Aryans than modern Iranians? Iranians have less R1a than both Tajiks and Pashtuns.

I am inclined to agree with you, although such a statement is difficult to stand by in its' entirety due to the following;

- All populations east of Khorasan spoke/speak East Iranic dialects. Admixture with southern Caspian natives may have been a possibility as the West Iranic-speaking tribes pushed deeper into the Iranian plateau. Thus, if this separate admixture event took place, they need to be used as the benchmark for "Aryanness" rather than any population that resided further east.

- The frequency of R1a1a is patchy in Tajikistan (Wells et al.); certain Pamiri communities have less R1a1a than parts of Iran (Quintana-Murci et al.). (However, it is worth noting these Pamiri communities are isolated and genetic drift has most likely taken place)

- Scythian/Saka incursions into South-Central Asia may have raised the frequency of Haplogroup R1a1a found amongst Pakhtuns and Tajiks. The Jatts (at least online) have been associated with ancient Scythian migrants, which is corroborated to an extent by their rather high frequency of North European autosomal components

[Wahe Guru]

Thank you very much for your answers DMXX and for giving me notice on private message. I appreciate your answer.

So in fact when I once had a dicussion with a banned member here (who now has reappeared under a new username) about the history of the Semetic population I was more right if you can say so?

He claimed that Semetic populations originated in Yemen while I said that they probably originated in the region near ancient Mesopotamia as proven by ancient scriptures (the word Arab was first used in ancient Mesopotamia) to describe a people that lived next to Mesopotamia that spoke a similar language (also Semetic like in Mesopotamia) and look very much the same.

So in short you theory is that the Semetic people moved from North of the Middle East (Anatolia, Caucasus etc.) down south to the Middle East and further south to the Southern part of the Arabian Peninsula?

I am actually surprised by this because I thought that we Semetic people orginated from the Horn of Africa because that would make sense knowing that we all descend from African and one of the oldest known cultures (if not the oldest) are found in the Middle East (ancient Iraq etc.)

So the Haplogroup J admixture found in the Horn of Africa is actually due to ancient migration from the north?

I would like to write a bit more but time is short (studies and small kids) so I can hopefully return on Saturday and ask for more question if it is ok.

"According to the Wikipedia (English version) the Haplogroup J originates in either Soutwest Asia or the Arabian Peninsular. So no mention of Horn of Africa. But according to sciencist are all people not from Africa or is this a lie?" - that is what you wrote in one of your earlier posts and you mention it again in above post "Horn of Africa".

I have not yet read the replies from DMXX (though no doubt he knows much more than me about genetics/DNA tests and studies etc.), but what I am aware of (heard or read from experts) is that modern people did originate in Africa (I think East Africa). That is no lie.

You can read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recent_..._modern_humans

Copied below from above link:
"It has been estimated that from a population of 2,000 to 5,000 individuals in Africa,[50] only a small group, possibly as few as 150 to 1,000 people, crossed the Red Sea.[51] Of all the lineages present in Africa only the female descendants of one lineage, mtDNA haplogroup L3, are found outside Africa. Had there been several migrations one would expect descendants of more than one lineage to be found outside Africa. L3's female descendants, the M and N haplogroup lineages, are found in very low frequencies in Africa (although haplogroup M1 is very ancient and diversified in North and Northeast Africa) and appear to be recent arrivals. A possible explanation is that these mutations occurred in East Africa shortly before the exodus and by the founder effect became the dominant haplogroups after the exodus from Africa. Alternatively, the mutations may have arisen shortly after the exodus from Africa.

Other scientists have proposed a Multiple Dispersal Model, in which there were two migrations out of Africa, one across the Red Sea travelling along the coastal regions to India (the Coastal Route), which would be represented by Haplogroup M. Another group of migrants with Haplogroup N followed the Nile from East Africa, heading northwards and crossing into Asia through the Sinai. This group then branched in several directions, some moving into Europe and others heading east into Asia. This hypothesis attempts to explain why Haplogroup N is predominant in Europe and why Haplogroup M is absent in Europe. Evidence of the coastal migration is hypothesized to have been destroyed by the rise in sea levels during the Holocene epoch.[11][52] Alternatively, a small European founder population that initially expressed both Haplogroup M and N could have lost Haplogroup M through random genetic drift resulting from a bottleneck (i.e. a founder effect)."

As you can read above it states that perhaps as few as 150 to 1000 people moved out of Africa and larger number stayed in Africa.

Personally I believe that the smaller number originally 150 or so moved out of Africa. Thats going by what is stated (again by experts) that non-Africans are much closer to each other (despite different appearances and one side of the world to another side of the world) and Africans are more diverse genetically from each other.

So all these different haplogroups and what not arose later outside Africa from the small number who moved out of Africa. And its likely then that subsequently Semetic people did migrate back to Horn of Africa and mixed with the local population in places like Ethiopia and Somalia.

As far as all these studies are concerned they can be slightly confusing. eg it will be stated "this is the case from this country to that country" as if it is a closed case and does not apply anywhere else, when it could just be that some of the adjacent countries had no samples in the same study.

DMXX: If anything above is incorrect please let us know?

[DMXX]

@al-arab,

Thank you for your reply. I will respond to your post via personal message and would appreciate if our discussion continued there, as we've turned the discussion onto a tangent.

[COLOR="Blue"]
DMXX: If anything above is incorrect please let us know?

Your post is entirely correct and in line with the perspective held by the majority of scientists and genetic genealogists who follow the topic (including myself).

I will, however, state my lack of "expertise" on African DNA topics beyond "trivial" snippets of information, such as the movement of R1b-V88 in Cameroon and the presence of separate lactase persistence mutation(s), but will stress caution on your comment regarding the back-flow of potential Semitic-speaking peoples into the African Horn.

It is probable, given that South Semitic languages are spoken there, but I am unfamiliar with the subclades of Haplogroup J that can be found in the region. It is entirely possible for the simultaneous presence of early Neolithic and later Semitic-associated J subclades co-exist together, as is the case in Iraq and the rest of the Levant (e.g. J2a with J1c3d).

The answers are a click away, but as ever, I am short of time and must attend to real-life matters.

[evilbunny]

I am of the opinion that Haplogroup J1 originated in the approximate region of the Zagros mountains, northern Mesopotamia and southern Anatolia based on the presence of non-J1c3-P58 lineages in that region.

The problem with this is that Northern Mesopotamia and Southern Anatolia are a former ancient Hurrian region and the region is close to Transcaucasia and Western Asia.

Haplogroup T's paleolithic expansion and distribution is also interesting.

Haplogroup T is not associated with the R1, G and J lineages that entered Africa from Eurasia relatively recently. Luis et al. (2004) suggest that the presence of the clade on the African continent may, like R1* representatives, point to an older introduction from Asia. The Levant rather than Southern Arabia appears to have been the main route of entry, as the Egyptian and Turkish haplotypes are considerably older in age (13,700 ybp and 9,000 ybp, respectively) than those found in Oman (only 1,600 ybp). According to the authors, the spotty modern distribution pattern of haplogroup T within Africa may therefore represent the traces of a more widespread early local presence of the clade. Later expansions of populations carrying the E1b1b, E1b1a, G and J NRY lineages may have overwhelmed the T clade-bearers in certain localities

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_T_%28Y-DNA%29

[DMXX]

The problem with this is that Northern Mesopotamia and Southern Anatolia are a former ancient Hurrian region and the region is close to Transcaucasia and Western Asia.

The Hurrian expansion into northern Mesopotamia occurred during the Bronze age (e.g. ancient times).

The hypothetical movement of J1-bearing pastoral nomads southwards into Arabia must have happened prior to this (e.g. prehistoric times).

[DMXX]

According to most genealogist (I did some further research) the Haplogroup J1 originates in Northern Iraq.

The Hurrian culture you speak about are from Caucasus because they spoke a Caucasian langauge unrelated to the one spoken in the Akkadian Empire (Semetic) in ancient Iraq.

But it's interesting indeed. What surprised me again was the probable origin of Semetic people are not in the Horn of Africa but North of Iraq and the Arabian Peninsular if we only look at the genetic aspect (which is the most certain as languages, borders etc. change but never the genetics)

Another point; the origin of proto-Semitic is a linguistic problem, first and foremost. Archaeology and to a lesser extent genetics should be used as circumstantial evidence around the evidence. If one archaeological/genetic model doesn't fit the linguistics, another alternative must be sought.

The association between J1c3d and the Semitic languages isn't by any means an exclusive one; much like Haplogroup R1a1a and the Indo-Iranian languages, it should be seen as an indicator, or one firm signal of demic processes which have resulted in the linguistic landscape we see today. Dr. Wells, the man who first observed the correlation between R1a1a and the Indo-European languages, commented its' distribution in Central and South Asia meant it was a likely "diagnostic Indo-Iranian marker". Nowhere in that statement did he specify it was the only marker. A similar situation likely occurred with the dispersal of all other language branches; other secondary expansions were accompanied by other secondary lineages.

Since DMXX has not replied yet it could be interesting to hear where the supposed Semetic homeland is (or should I rather say the Haplogroup J found in 70-80 percent of most Arabs today and other Semetic peoples and a few Caucasian peoples (Dagestani, Chechens etc.) and if it's indeed from the area around Northern ancient Mesopotamia (current day Northern Iraq (mainly), the Zagros mountains, Southern Anatolia and the Caucasus.

If we look at diversity then Caucasus is a really diverse place. I was surprised about what I discovered when I looked at the Haplogroups (the highest amount of Haplogroup are found in Caucasus among some Dagestani peoples, surprinsingly not among Arabs or other Semetic peoples) which might point to an origin in that area.

The Caucasus was never a bastion of Semitic linguistic diversity, which is a decent tell-tale sign of the antiquity of a language branch there. Take, for instance, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Tajikistan; Iranic, Indo-Aryan and Dardic/Nuristani language branches were/are all spoken there. However, Iran and India are only the seats of Iranic and Indo-Aryan respectively. Linguistically, we can discern that the Indo-Iranian homeland must have been between Iran and India, and that region would require the greatest diversity in Indo-Iranian languages. This is exactly what the Afghanistan-Tajikistan-Pakistan area presents us with.

I have a question DMXX. Is the Haplogroup J1 (Y-DNA from father to father etc. Haplogrup) elder than the J2 that originates in Mesopotamia (probably?) It's a well known fact that the ancient populations of Iraq were Semitic and related to other Semetic people so maybe determinating which is older could give a better picture of where it might originate from?

I am of the opinion (again based on my viewing of data in 2011) that Haplogroup J2 originated further north of Mesopotamia, in Anatolia, the Caucasus or Iran. The Iranian DNA Project (which I administer) has a fair bit of Y-DNA J2 subclade and STR diversity.

I have not seen any recent calculations regarding the age of either J1 or J2. Wikipedia offers a very broad range (30k-4k ybp!). I'd advise against taking those figures too seriously.

If I remember correct you said DMXX that you was active on a forum about genetics? If this is truth do you know someone who knows a lot about Semetic/Caucasus genetics? Maybe there is in fact an ancient connection between Semetic peoples (ancient Semetic populations, Arabs, Jews etc.) and indigenious peoples from Caucasus.

Mr. Givargidze of the Aramaic DNA Project (attached link earlier) is the ideal man to contact for connections between the Semitic-speaking world and the Caucasus. He has a wealth of knowledge on the topic, both genetic and linguistic.

Also DMXX I took a look at your links to genetic works done on Arab populations/Semetic populations and in one of them they mentioned Sumerians etc. and according to that work they were indegenious to the region and not from India as some had thought. This also makes it even more complicated since they apparently spoke an language isolate and were darker than the first Semetic peoples known from ancient Iraq.

The Sumerians, in my opinion (again) were probably an offshoot of the early Neolithic farmers from further north* who followed the Tigris and Euphrates down towards Mesopotamia. This is circumstantially supported by the fact that other language isolates were spoken on the adjacent side of the Zagros mountains, and indeed, among the Bactria-Margiana Archaeological Complex (BMAC) founders in Central Asia, who were most certainly of Near-Eastern Neolithic Farmer heritage.

That is my current thought and I will happily revise it (as well as everything else I have stated) should data be presented that indicated differently.

* Logically, harder for agricultural settlers to ascend a mountain range rather than go down it, following a river.

But a quick look at the haplogroup ancestors of J (IJ--IJK--F) also points to a Euroasian Southwest Asia connection.

The notion of Haplogroup J descending anywhere outside of the Near-East, given the diversity of both J1 and J2 across the entire region relative to Europe, the Caucasus, South Asia or Africa, is outlandish and not supported by modern data.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

DMXX, would you say the Iraqis and other areas outside the Arabian Peninsula, by in large have DNA markers that originated from Southwest Arabia, which would denote them as "Pure Arabs", what are the markers that existed during the 7th century areas of Yemen and Southwestern Arabian Peninsula? have they changed?

Many people in Iraq and other areas claim to be Pure Arabs but historical records indicate that most of Iraq and Syria and places outside the Arab Peninsula are not by heredity linked to the Southwest Arabian Peninsula. and are termed "Must'arab". Does genetic evidence confirm this?

[DMXX]

DMXX, would you say the Iraqis and other areas outside the Arabian Peninsula, by in large have DNA markers that originated from Southwest Arabia, which would denote them as "Pure Arabs", what are the markers that existed during the 7th century areas of Yemen and Southwestern Arabian Peninsula? have they changed?

Many people in Iraq and other areas claim to be Pure Arabs but historical records indicate that most of Iraq and Syria and places outside the Arab Peninsula are not by heredity linked to the Southwest Arabian Peninsula. and are termed "Must'arab". Does genetic evidence confirm this?

Genetic evidence confirms there is substantial diversity if Y-DNA J1c3d is put aside for a moment. Not one genetic study supports the notion of genetic uniformity across the Arabian Peninsula. For example, there is clear evidence of additional West Asian admixture in Iraq which also appears to be as native (R1b1a2-M269 was the third most frequent lineage in one study), whereas Yemeni people show greater autosomal African admixture than other Peninsular Arabs. (Compare Yemeni and Saudi African admixture proportions on the Dodecad Ancestry Project K=12 spreadsheet.)

However, as the term "Arab" either means "nomad" or "[one who can] speak", it would be impossible to objectively conceptualize what a "pure Arab" is genetically, as their movement across the Middle-East must have resulted in intermingling with other populations along the way, and the second meaning is a linguistic identifier (i.e. anyone competent in Arabic is a "pure Arab").

Regarding modern Arabs specifically, I would not consider any one population to be "purer" than any other because of all have non-Near-Eastern admixtures of varying proportions and many populations seem to have received genetic input from post-Islamic events (e.g. several Saudi reference samples have significant South European/Mediterranean genetic input, perhaps from Ottoman times, some Iraqi's displaying autosomal signals such as South Asian or European components that seem to indicate Persian input as the values are transitional between Arabia and Iran).

[Old School Killiwal]

Exactly DMXX:

Yemenis have the largest African genes among all Arabs today.

What is worth mentioning to the studies you refer to DMXX is that Iraq is not entirely 100 percent Arab but in fact about 20 percent are non-Arabs, mostly Kurds who have high level of R1a.

But since Arabs (Semetic people) originated in ancient Iraq (and area next to) and not Yemen it plays not role since the migration of Arabs to Yemen came from Northern Arabia (Iraq etc.) as proven by genetics (as DMXX already explained), history, oral traditions and the fact that the first Semetic cultures (we know of) were found in ancient Iraq and that the first Semetic language (we know of) was the Akkadian spoken in ancient Iraq and the fact that the first Arabic scripture was Kufic (from Iraq) and the word Arab was first used by Assyrians in acient Iraq 2800 years ago.

DMXX:

Did you see the report I linked to and the figure that explains Semetic migrations from ancient Iraq/Levant down south?

It makes perfectly sense to the genetic response you gave and historical/oral traditions.

What are you comments on that report and map?

And what can be the reason for so much African admixture (Somalia, Etiophia in Yemen) compared to the rest of the Arab world? Is it because of the close proximity to the Horn of Africa?

And the once large Jewish population that lived in Yemen can they be found to this day and have they left an admixture in the country?

i have a friend who is half yemeni and half ethiopian.

[DMXX]

Did you see the report I linked to and the figure that explains Semetic migrations from ancient Iraq/Levant down south?

It makes perfectly sense to the genetic response you gave and historical/oral traditions.

What are you comments on that report and map?

And what can be the reason for so much African admixture (Somalia, Etiophia in Yemen) compared to the rest of the Arab world? Is it because of the close proximity to the Horn of Africa?

And the once large Jewish population that lived in Yemen can they be found to this day and have they left an admixture in the country?

That map and the accompanying text is almost in perfect accordance with similar data I've read over the past few years. The paper you quoted by Kitchen et al. is, due to the methodology (Bayesian+fixed dating from known extinct branches), what I consider to be definitive evidence of Proto-Semitic originating somewhere north of the Arabian Peninsula;

Bayesian phylogenetic analysis of Semitic languages identifies an Early Bronze Age origin of Semitic in the Near East
Kitchen et al. - Proc. R. Soc. B 7 August 2009 vol. 276 no. 1668 2703-2710

The evolution of languages provides a unique opportunity to study human population history. The origin of Semitic and the nature of dispersals by Semitic-speaking populations are of great importance to our understanding of the ancient history of the Middle East and Horn of Africa. Semitic populations are associated with the oldest written languages and urban civilizations in the region, which gave rise to some of the world's first major religious and literary traditions. In this study, we employ Bayesian computational phylogenetic techniques recently developed in evolutionary biology to analyse Semitic lexical data by modelling language evolution and explicitly testing alternative hypotheses of Semitic history. We implement a relaxed linguistic clock to date language divergences and use epigraphic evidence for the sampling dates of extinct Semitic languages to calibrate the rate of language evolution. Our statistical tests of alternative Semitic histories support an initial divergence of Akkadian from ancestral Semitic over competing hypotheses (e.g. an African origin of Semitic). We estimate an Early Bronze Age origin for Semitic approximately 5750 years ago in the Levant, and further propose that contemporary Ethiosemitic languages of Africa reflect a single introduction of early Ethiosemitic from southern Arabia approximately 2800 years ago.

[Link]

I am uncertain regarding the admixture proportions (if it occurred to a detectable extent) between Yemeni Jews with other Yemenis, but I can draw your attention to the Dodecad Ancestry Project ADMIXTURE K=12 autosomal results once more, where Yemeni Jews reveal themselves to be slightly more Caucasian (i.e. West Asian), Atlantic_Med (i.e. Meditarranean) and less East African than their Yemeni countrymen, which is in line with additional ancestry from a West Eurasian population outside of Southwest Asia proper.

The origins of the African components in Yemen were certainly numerous; without claiming confidence in this particular bit of speculation and based on my admittedly rudimentary knowledge of that region's history, I would imagine longstanding trade relations with the Horn of Africa, post-Islamic slave trading and perhaps an autochthonous element present since prehistoric times.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Haha.

DMXX already provided you plenty of genetic proofs of Yemen (southern Arabia) not being the homeland of Arabs nor Semetic people just like I told you and the Arab oral tradition say and archaelogical evidence proofs. Iraq is the earliest known homeland of Semetic peoples and the first country that used Semetic languages and used Arabic scripture. The word Arab also was first used in Mesopotamia. And geographically most of Iraq lies in the Arabian peninsula. 50 percent of Iraq is covered by the Arabian desert if you have not noticed yet.

In fact he agreed with my assumption.

So Al-Turki ibn al-Qat alias Scimitar rafidah should return to his cave somwhere in U S of A and keep quite when facts are presented. Or immigrate to Turkey where he came from generations ago.

How come a banned user can comeback btw? Was this Scimitar fool not banned once just to return and post 350 post in 2 weeks?

While Arabs are Semitic linguitically; DMXX had not given any reference to whether Arabs originated from Southwest Arabia and spread their language Northward with little genetic influence on Iraqs, by Arabizing them; but rather he is speaking about Proto Semitic which is a different stage in Semetic development entirely.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Genetic evidence confirms there is substantial diversity if Y-DNA J1c3d is put aside for a moment. Not one genetic study supports the notion of genetic uniformity across the Arabian Peninsula. For example, there is clear evidence of additional West Asian admixture in Iraq which also appears to be as native (R1b1a2-M269 was the third most frequent lineage in one study), whereas Yemeni people show greater autosomal African admixture than other Peninsular Arabs. (Compare Yemeni and Saudi African admixture proportions on the Dodecad Ancestry Project K=12 spreadsheet.)

However, as the term "Arab" either means "nomad" or "[one who can] speak", it would be impossible to objectively conceptualize what a "pure Arab" is genetically, as their movement across the Middle-East must have resulted in intermingling with other populations along the way, and the second meaning is a linguistic identifier (i.e. anyone competent in Arabic is a "pure Arab").

Regarding modern Arabs specifically, I would not consider any one population to be "purer" than any other because of all have non-Near-Eastern admixtures of varying proportions and many populations seem to have received genetic input from post-Islamic events (e.g. several Saudi reference samples have significant South European/Mediterranean genetic input, perhaps from Ottoman times, some Iraqi's displaying autosomal signals such as South Asian or European components that seem to indicate Persian input as the values are transitional between Arabia and Iran).

Sorry DMXX

Maybe I should clarify ..Al-Arab is mixing up Arab with Semitic and vice versa; whlle Arabic is linguistucally considered a subset of semitic; Semitic of course does not automatically mean Arab, I am sure you know this but If you read some of Al-Arabs posts carefully he seems to deliberately mix up the two to make it appear that you're implying that Arabs as an ethnic group began in Mesopotamia rather than other Semitic Groups

What I am asking is are the People of Modern Day Iraq related to the people of Southwest Arabia by in large through genetic links; Because we know from Linguistic evidence that the Arabic language originated from Yemen and spread Northward into other areas.

do Genetics show that the peoples of Iraq, share very little to no connection to Southwest Arabia and thus are "Arabized" rather than Genuine arabs?

Sorry if there was some confusion; I understand that Al-Arab is misusing the word Semitic and Arab interchangably

The word Arabic doesn't mean Nomad, it actually means "one who can speak well"

From what I grasped from you is that proto-semitic; which was a much earlier development than Arabic, was from the North, but what I am referring to is the spread of Arabic language from the South did it have much genetic influence on places like Iraq.

Please tell me if you need more clarification.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Exactly DMXX:

Yemenis have the largest African genes among all Arabs today.

What is worth mentioning to the studies you refer to DMXX is that Iraq is not entirely 100 percent Arab but in fact about 20 percent are non-Arabs, mostly Kurds who have high level of R1a.

But since Arabs (Semetic people) originated in ancient Iraq (and area next to) and not Yemen it plays no role since the migration of Arabs to Yemen came from Northern Arabia (Iraq etc.) and not the other way around as proven by genetics (as DMXX already explained), history, oral traditions and the fact that the first Semetic cultures (we know of) were found in ancient Iraq and that the first Semetic language (we know of) was the Akkadian spoken in ancient Iraq and the fact that the first Arabic scripture was Kufic (from Iraq) and the word Arab was first used by Assyrians in acient Iraq 2800 years ago. Therefore this pure "Arab" (not such word exists) is nonsense when looking at it historically and in terms of genetics.

DMXX;

Did you see the report I linked to and the figure that explains Semetic migrations from ancient Iraq/Levant down south? (my latest post before the one you posted a few minutes ago)

It makes perfectly sense to the genetic response you gave and historical/oral traditions.

What are you comments on that report and map?

And what can be the reason for so much African admixture (Somalia, Etiophia) in Yemen compared to the rest of the Arab Peninsular (Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Oman, the Gulf, Jordan, Syria, Palestine)? Is it because of the close proximity to the Horn of Africa?

And the once large Jewish population that lived in Yemen can they be found to this day and have they left an admixture in the country?

Actually that isn't what DMXX is saying; he's specifically referring to Proto-Semitic people; this was long before Arabs came into existence as a distinct identity. We're talking about Arabs and their spread specifically.


You're confusing Arab and Semitic to mean the same thing; but this is incorrect.

[DMXX]

Sorry DMXX

Maybe I should clarify ..Al-Arab is mixing up Arab with Semitic and vice versa; whlle Arabic is linguistucally considered a subset of semitic; Semitic of course does not automatically mean Arab, I am sure you know this but If you read some of Al-Arabs posts carefully he seems to deliberately mix up the two to make it appear that you're implying that Arabs as an ethnic group began in Mesopotamia rather than other Semitic Groups

What I am asking is are the People of Modern Day Iraq related to the people of Southwest Arabia by in large through genetic links; Because we know from Linguistic evidence that the Arabic language originated from Yemen and spread Northward into other areas.

do Genetics show that the peoples of Iraq, share very little to no connection to Southwest Arabia and thus are "Arabized" rather than Genuine arabs?

Sorry if there was some confusion; I understand that Al-Arab is misusing the word Semitic and Arab interchangably

The word Arabic doesn't mean Nomad, it actually means "one who can speak well"

From what I grasped from you is that proto-semitic; which was a much earlier development than Arabic, was from the North, but what I am referring to is the spread of Arabic language from the South did it have much genetic influence on places like Iraq.

Please tell me if you need more clarification.

Regardless of its' usage by other posters, I have attempted to describe the authenticated scenario of Proto-Semitic originating above the Arabian Peninsula.

Arabic is of course a Central Semitic language, an offshoot of Proto-Semitic. I have intentionally not addressed the origins of the Arabic language as it has little bearing on this topic. Defining the linguistic developments of Arabic relative to Aramaic and other Semitic languages is, as I understand it, a tenuous topic. For all we know, it may have originated immediately south of the Levant and Mesopotamia.

I don't think there is a clear-cut answer to the question you asked; numerous population movements occurred within ancient times, let alone the standardization of Arabic in Iraq as we see it today. Iraqis who have tested their DNA appear to be a rather heterogenous group; as I mentioned before, one showed a position between Arabia and Iran on Global PCA charts, with ADMIXTURE runs showing certain component values which are consistent with Iranian/Persian ancestry. Another, on the other hand, sat on the Saudi-Iraqi border, perhaps indicating they have a significant amount of ancestry from within the Arabian Peninsula.

There is, of course, the problem of sample sizes and population specificity. Baghdadi Sunni Arabs will likely have different autosomal positions compared to Basra Shi'a Arabs, who will also probably be different from bedouin Sunni Arabs from the west of the country. We won't know what is typical of which Iraqi populations until more individuals test their DNA.

I have been told numerous times by both Arabs and Assyrians online that the etymology of the word "Arab" may derive from a common Proto-Semitic root meaning "nomad". I do not claim any deep knowledge in Semitic etymologies.

I should also point out that Yemeni Arabs simply have more African admixture than their counterparts from elsewhere on the peninsula; both autosomal and mitochondrial DNA in places like Saudi Arabia, Qatar and the UAE indicate there has been some recent mixing, likely from the maternal side. Autosomal DNA can also be found in Syria and even further north in Turkey; it has been suggested in genetic genealogy communities that this is both a relic of the Ottoman empire's slave routes, as well as, of course, Islam's message of oneness regardless of race and ethnicity.