Bride Price among Pashtuns, is not what it is assumed

[maneatinglizard]

I think Punjab only recently became majority-Muslim and I have a feeling they were never properly taught Islam until recently.

Punjab has been controlled, partially or completely, by Muslims for the better part of the last 1000 years, so I always thought that they converted a long time ago.

One of my aunts had a Punjabi servant who was an old man yet did not know how to pray. The majority of Punjabis from what I have and seen do not fast, this is especially true in the rural areas. They even have a saying "Pathan janay Ramzan janay" roughly meaning that fasting is for Pashtuns("Pathans" in their language).

Za ba taso ta yaw kisa wowayam. Dwa dre kala wrrande rojo ke Pekhawar ke gharma ke zamoong kor makhe ta yaw punjabay raghalay wo. Zamoong sokidar na ye ooba woghokhtal. Sokidar warna tapos wokrro che "sta roja nishta?" Punjabay warta wowayal che "za punjabay yam. Pukhtana roje neewale shi kho za na sham neewale. Sokidar warta wowayal che "oowaza moong ta ta ooba na darkawoo." O daghase kisa khatma shwa.

Subhanallah, that's crazy. But this is what I really don't understand about them. Basically every other ethnicity that adopted Islam adopted the basics like prayer and fasting, if nothing else. Rural Pashtuns were extremely ignorant of Islam up until recently too. Tattooing was common among women, and we retained other aspects of pre-Islamic culture that was at odds with our religion, but prayer, fasting, hajj, etc. were still the norm. Heck, Nuristanis have been Muslim for barely 100 years and are already observant.

So why hasn't Islam rooted itself into Punjabi culture? It's a very interesting question. I wonder if anyone is doing any research about that.

I should caution against painting all Punjabis with the same brush. Many of the educated ones do fast as do all the ones I have met in the west. Also as religious education is increasing the situation is getting better, even in rural Punjab.

Of course. All the stuff you and mentioned about Punjabis was surprising to me because all the Punjabis I've met (in the West) have been good, religious people who don't fit the stereotypes I've seen on the internet.

I've had friends (Pashtuns) go on Khurooj to rural Punjab, and their stories were pretty hilarious, but I didn't realize that was the norm until recently.

[maneatinglizard]

The vast majority of desi muslims that I have met here in the states do not fast and that includes indian muslims and pakistani muslims.

Many, maybe most, Muslims in the States don't pray or fast, period. American Muslims are not very religious in general.

I don't know if Desis are even less religious than other groups, but regardless that problem isn't specific to them here. The only group that is specifically known for being irreligious is Iranians.

[Traveller]

The vast majority of desi muslims that I have met here in the states do not fast and that includes indian muslims and pakistani muslims.

This is just my impression of them. Maybe if I got to know some of them better I would find that they don't fast.

[Traveller]

Punjab has been controlled, partially or completely, by Muslims for the better part of the last 1000 years, so I always thought that they converted a long time ago.



Subhanallah, that's crazy. But this is what I really don't understand about them. Basically every other ethnicity that adopted Islam adopted the basics like prayer and fasting, if nothing else. Rural Pashtuns were extremely ignorant of Islam up until recently too. Tattooing was common among women, and we retained other aspects of pre-Islamic culture that was at odds with our religion, but prayer, fasting, hajj, etc. were still the norm. Heck, Nuristanis have been Muslim for barely 100 years and are already observant.

So why hasn't Islam rooted itself into Punjabi culture? It's a very interesting question. I wonder if anyone is doing any research about that.



Of course. All the stuff you and mentioned about Punjabis was surprising to me because all the Punjabis I've met (in the West) have been good, religious people who don't fit the stereotypes I've seen on the internet.

I've had friends (Pashtuns) go on Khurooj to rural Punjab, and their stories were pretty hilarious, but I didn't realize that was the norm until recently.

All of Northern Hindustan has been under Muslim rule for the better part of 1000 year but most of them still aren't muslims. I believe Punjab became majority muslim during the British Raj. It's not just Punjabis like this btw. Sindhis are even worse from what I have heard. Apparently what often happens in many villages of Rural Sindh is that when someone dies they have to import someone from another village to do Salatul-Janaza as nobody in their own village knows how to do it. I've heard North Indian Muslims(from the Urdu belt) are better. Urdu-speaking Muhajirs in Pakistan from what I have noticed tend to be more observant then Punjabis despite also being indic. Most of these Muhajirs came from Northern India. My hypothesis is that Urdu zubans benefited from the fact that cities in the Urdu belt such as Delhi and Lucknow were the main centers of Indian(in the old sense) Islam while Punjab and Sindh were on the periphary.

Btw, I didn't know you were tableeghi.

[khushal]

Many, maybe most, Muslims in the States don't pray or fast, period. American Muslims are not very religious in general.

I don't know if Desis are even less religious than other groups, but regardless that problem isn't specific to them here. The only group that is specifically known for being irreligious is Iranians.

I've never met an Iranian who fasts and Every Afghan Shiite I know dont fast. Majority of Iraqi Shiites I've met do fast. Every Afghan farsiwan and pashtun and pakistani pashtun I've met do fast accept a few who(Afghans ones) claim to be atheists. There are a lot of Desis where I live and I would say 10% of the muslim desis I know fast.

I dont know if you could say that most US muslims are not religious in general, it probably depends on your definition of it. It's true not may are 5 times prayer types but I've went to many Masjids and for Friday prayer, they are always full.
This is my observation. It does not mean its the norm.

[Samandri]

I have to imagine the Muslim rulers of Punjab expected their Muslim populations to perform marriages the Sharia way, with a mahr instead of jahaiz, so I wonder if this practice crept back into Punjab and Sindh after the Sikhs and British took over.

Who told you that there is no haq-i-mahr in Muslim-Punjabi marriages?. Its not like Punjabi Muslims utter Sanskrit gyan instead of khutba of Nikah. They have some marriage customs like Hindus because they are Hindi after all.

Obligatory nature of Jahaiz is not just limited to Punjabis , this cultural practice exists among all Indian Muslims and its because of their Hindu past and because they live amongst Hindus. Punjab was barely 52% Muslim in 1947 and was Hindu majority few centuries ago. The partition drastically changed the demographics of West Punjab, otherwise Hindus and Sikhs were living in each village and Mohallah of Punjab before 1947.

If you study history, you will know that Indian Islam was heavily Hinduised from the get go and various efforts were made by some rulers and ulemas to cleanse it from Hindu influences. Aurangzeb and Shaikh Ahmad Sarhindi are well known in this regard , also Sikandar Lodi , Mahdavia Movement etc.

[khushal]

When I tell my Desi friends that the groom pays all expense for weddings, they think I don't know what I'm talking about. They actually believe it's their way everywhere.

American customs are the same where the bride's family pays for all wedding expense. The custom only recently has started to change.

[Charsi Malang]

I think Punjab only recently became majority-Muslim and I have a feeling they were never properly taught Islam until recently. One of my aunts had a Punjabi servant who was an old man yet did not know how to pray. The majority of Punjabis from what I have heard and seen do not fast, this is especially true in the rural areas. They even have a saying "Pathan janay Ramzan janay" roughly meaning that fasting is for Pashtuns("Pathans" in their language).

Za ba taso ta yaw kisa wowayam. Dwa dre kala wrrande rojo ke Pekhawar ke gharma ke zamoong kor makhe ta yaw punjabay raghalay wo. Zamoong sokidar na ye ooba woghokhtal. Sokidar warna tapos wokrro che "sta roja nishta?" Punjabay warta wowayal che "za punjabay yam. Pukhtana roje neewale shi kho za na sham neewale. Sokidar warta wowayal che "oowaza moong ta ta ooba na darkawoo." O daghase kisa khatma shwa.

I should caution against painting all Punjabis with the same brush. Many of the educated ones do fast as do all the ones I have met in the west. Also as religious education is increasing the situation is getting better, even in rural Punjab.

I've heard the same thing about Punjabis and Muhajirs (Indian Muslims) not fasting, although I have seen individuals from both groups observing sawm. So although a large proportion may not fast, it doesn't apply to every single one.

[Traveller]

I've heard the same thing about Punjabis and Muhajirs (Indian Muslims) not fasting, although I have seen individuals from both groups observing sawm. So although a large proportion may not fast, it doesn't apply to every single one.

Of course. I said that in my post. Plus most of the Punjabis where you live (UK) are Mirpuris and much of what from what I have heard and seen Mirpuris and Potoharis are more observant than people from central and southern Punjab.

[Samandri]

Punjabis and Sindhis are not irreligious (بے دین)......they are religious in jahil kind of way and as superstitious as Hindus and Sikhs are. Even if its not exactly Islam in true spirit, they show their religious nature (of Hindu-ish odour) by worshiping the mausoleums of saints or sing some qawali or naat or attending some pir. The conservative Deoband and Ahl-i-Hadith movements from interior of India have gained some influence in urban centers of Punjab. But people of rural Punjab are largely Jahil. While rural Sindhis are even more Jahil than rural Punjabis. Just recently i went to Golrra Sharif near Islamabad and as usual, i saw people there doing sajda to the photograph of the Pir. It was pathetic sight.

In Punjab a girl may dance sensually to the crowd of buyers on the occasion of selling animal before Eid-ul-Adha

[toughpashtun]

To all you guys who are discussing the religosity of Punjabis.
I'll ad my two cents.

Among the Pashtuns , praying and fasting is something that almost everyone does, especially in rural villages and lower and middle classes..No matter what other wrongs they do.

In Punjab , due to influence of madrassas, Tabligh in recent years there is a large segment of society that is very much religiously observant in all aspects such as lifetyle,dress also . However , the people who are not influenced by this then do not even stick to the basics such as praying and fasting.

Those that say that Potoharis and Kashmiris are more observant than people from Central and South Punjab , I don't think so.

[Kakar-Wardak]

Among the indic muslims the bengalies and the deobandi influenced up/Bihar/ gujjirati types are more religous.

Punjabies less So, religiosity by punjabies is measured in how many qawaalis they listen too and how many shrines and pirs they visit.

[Charsi Malang]

Among the indic muslims the bengalies and the deobandi influenced up/Bihar/ gujjirati types are more religous.

Punjabies less So, religiosity by punjabies is measured in how many qawaalis they listen too and how many shrines and pirs they visit.

Do other ethnicities have qawalis and naats or is it only Indics? Pakistanis absolutely love their naats and qawalis. I haven't seen many from any other cultures.

[Samandri]

Do other ethnicities have qawalis and naats or is it only Indics? Pakistanis absolutely love their naats and qawalis. I haven't seen many from any other cultures.

Qawali is original to India. Naat i.e singing poem in praise of Hazrat Muhammad p.b.u.h exists among all Musalman but its of different nature and volume in India and Punjab+Sindh. A Punjabi may not offer prayers and zakat but he will be singing a naat or attending a session of naat mehfil. They attach extraordinary importance to naat than any where else. If a Punjabi, Sindhi or Mohajir has to assert that he is a good Muslim, he will say that he sings Naat or has attended this and that session of Naat Mehfil.

[Kakar-Wardak]

Do other ethnicities have qawalis and naats or is it only Indics? Pakistanis absolutely love their naats and qawalis. I haven't seen many from any other cultures.

Definitely an northern Indian thing.