Pashtuns before Islam

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Hold it right there, farsi, balochi and kurdish are NOT descended from avestan not even close. All these languages are western iranian and have most likely descended from other dialects. Farsi comes from Pahlavi, balochi is descended from median and the kurdish language (s) is not one language, its a set of different dialects with different names. I know a few iranians online that can debunk your devious claims.

They are indeed descendants of Avestan

check it out

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_languages

Bratar in Avestan is Bradar in Persian and Bra in Kurdish
dughtar in Avestan is dukhtar in Persian and Duet in Kurdish
Davara in Avestan is Dar in Persian and and Deri in Kurdish

There are actually more Avestan derived words in Farsi and Kurdish than there are in Pashto. Go see for yourself.

[Kushan Prince]

They are indeed descendants of Avestan

check it out

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_languages

Bratar in Avestan is Bradar in Persian and Bra in Kurdish
dughtar in Avestan is dukhtar in Persian and Duet in Kurdish
Davara in Avestan is Dar in Persian and and Deri in Kurdish

There are actually more Avestan derived words in Farsi and Kurdish than there are in Pashto. Go see for yourself. These words are referenced so you can back check the citations.

Just because these languages have avestan words in them doesn't mean they descend from avestan. Different Languages borrow from their neighbours from time to time which should be no surprise. Iranian farsi contains a lot of arabic and even Aramaic words in them but it is by no means considered a Semitic language. The fact that farsi has borrowed from avestan means that persians are easily influenced people.

[Kushan Prince]

Most tribes have separate gods ... for example the Rajputs had Suryavanshis who worsihpped the Sun (Surya)

Do you guys know of any particular gods and religions distinct to Pashtuns

Honestly why does it even matter? pashtuns are muslim now and islam is what we adhere to today so what the religious beliefs of some Pashtuns were in the past should be of no merit. I mean look at arabs, they had tons of deities in the past and were notable pagans before islam but you don't see them bragging about their pre-islamic beliefs. In fact it is haram to even ponder what Pashtuns might have practised back in those days.

I say take a deep breath and don't worry about such things. Leave the past behind and move on with the future.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Just because these languages have avestan words in them doesn't mean they descend from avestan. .

Actually to quote you

Well there is evidence of pashto language existing back in those times in the form of Avesta

If your claim is true then we'd find more Avestan words in Pashto than in Farsi or Kurdish but take a look. Bratar and Bradar sound much closer in sound than "Wror" and Dughtar and Dukhtar sounds closer in sound than "Lur" which is in Pashto. Also in terms of sentence structure Some Pashto words have no relationship with Avestan what so ever, for example the word for "Spring" in Pashto is Sparlay but in Avestan is oh Turavahara, where in Persian it is Bahara, Bahara sounds much closer to Turavahara than Sparlay. This is also different from borrowing, borrowing is taking the word "as is" from a parallel language. These words are derived from a predecessor language, Avestan.

If Pashto existed as Avestan then basic words in Avestan wouldn't be so different. And also if your claim was true than words like "Span" which means Dog in Avestan is simply a BORROWING from Avestan in Pashto. Which basically discredits your other claim.

What makes languages related is having Similar sounding words with Similar or related meanings. Pashto is a descendant of Avestan, but as we can see Farsi and Kurdish are closer relatives and thereby Avestan wouldn't be a form of Pashto.

Checkmate.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Honestly why does it even matter? pashtuns are muslim now and islam is what we adhere to today so what the religious beliefs of some Pashtuns were in the past should be of no merit. I mean look at arabs, they had tons of deities in the past and were notable pagans before islam but you don't see them bragging about their pre-islamic beliefs. In fact it is haram to even ponder what Pashtuns might have practised back in those days.

I say take a deep breath and don't worry about such things. Leave the past behind and move on with the future.

I agree with everything except the bold part. Where in Islam does it say it is harram to even ponder what might have been practiced?

[Tjanaparh]

There are some sources on the territory of nowdays Afghanistan from various Armenian authors, starting from the 5th century. I have however no time to make here translations and to search for singular mentionings in the books of varius historians. When I have time, I may in future post some sentences that seem more informative.

Our historians refered to Afghanistan as "Honats Yerkir" (Country of the Hons) or as "Country of the KUshans" (and this even much later than Kushan state.

The sources mostly describe various unions amon Armenians and Hons against Sassanid imposed politics.

[Badlun]

Well Millions of Pashtuns are on the map in 2014. Not in 1000 AD

Back in 1000 A.D. the world population was maybe 300 Million. This is the entire world population, including China, Europe, Africa, South America , Asia and Australia, Pashtuns today are bout 50 Million, that is only 1/700 th (50 Million/7.224 Billion) of current world population. Assuming that growth rate was constant that would mean In 1000 AD Pashtun population would probably have been 42,000 people. (300 Million * 1/700 = (approx) 42,000)

If Pashtuns were at one time 42,000 people 1000 years ago then it is easy to see how Millions of Pashtuns could appear today.

What this means is that if Pashtuns were born out of a very small population of People. 42,000 people is the size of a Small American town. We can see that if different people like Soghdians, Indians, Persians Turks, Khotanese all came and mixed together each a a small bit. Then All these groups can easy create a 42,000 Proto Pashtun population. What this demonstrates is that Pashtuns are more probably simply a product of different Non-Pashtuns mixing together and then developing their own language over time.

So that means Pashtuns are not 5000 years old, that Pashtuns are not homogeneous and that the stories Pashtuns have about their origins are myhs and folklore.

If this logic we apply on other ethnic groups then those who are less in number than Pashtuns may not have history of even few hundreds years. Pashtuns were still 42000 in 1000 A.D., according to this lopsided approach, but if there was only one Pashtun, still it shows existence of Pashtuns before 1000 A.D.

No doubt the number was not as today but the same was applicable on other races as at that juncture of time world's population was less and each human group had less number as they have today.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Well we know other ethnicities existed because of their archaeological remnants, so no the same logic cannot apply. Especially since we know that Persians existed for 3000 years Soghdians were from 2500 years ago , Khotanese and so on. Also we know the populations of other people in antiquity. For example in China we know that in 1000 AD there were 87 Million People. China were almost 1/3rd of the World Population. This matches the the population trends around the world.

The technique they used to determine this is a Mathematical application called Linear Regression Analysis. It is done through Differential Equations.

My response was to show your question is foolish and lacks knowledge of population dynamics. Basic Mathematical ideas like Geometric vs. Exponential Growth rate. In other words I refuted your claim.

[Tjanaparh]

According to some Armenian sources Armenians and Hephthalites had a kind of union against the Sasanids, because both were oposing the Zoroastrian doctrine of Sasanids.
That means that at least the faith on the territory was different than the Zoroastrian religion of Sasanid empire

[Tjanaparh]

I will post more sources soon, but they are also to treat carefully.....

[Tjanaparh]

What is the problem with Armenian sources, they were written out of 2 viewpoints:
1) Christian ideology
2) strongly pro-Arshakid and anti-Sasanid
In this sense these sources should be seen through a filter, understanding that their scripts are not full trouth. However the Union I mentioned is mentioned by various authors and in different periods, deriving as they describe from the time the Arshakids ruled.
There will be some trouth on this behalf.
When I find more time I add more translations in the theme created for this purpose

[Badlun]

Also guys if look at the stories our parents told us:

Perais - good fairies
Paryanai - witch fairies
Deos - giant demons
Koday - sorcerors
etc etc

It can be seen from our language, some separate Pagan religion that Pashtuns followed, but we dont know until archeological research is carried in areas where Pashtuns have remained for thousands of year= Loy Paktia, Kandhar etc

Yeah, there are many words like xaperai, deo turaban, kohe qap, bahreme gor shezada which hint at pre Islam mythology and out look of Pashtuns.

Also folklore like adam khan durkhanai, yousaf khan sherbano, sher alam mamonai and many tapey/misrey/landai as well as charbetey indicate the thousands years of history of Pashtuns before Islam.

There is need of further research and I am sure we will soon discover the pre Islam glory of Pashtuns.

[Badlun]

Well we know other ethnicities existed because of their archaeological remnants, so no the same logic cannot apply. Especially since we know that Persians existed for 3000 years Soghdians were from 2500 years ago , Khotanese and so on. Also we know the populations of other people in antiquity. For example in China we know that in 1000 AD there were 87 Million People. China were almost 1/3rd of the World Population. This matches the the population trends around the world.

The technique they used to determine this is a Mathematical application called Linear Regression Analysis. It is done through Differential Equations.

My response was to show your question is foolish and lacks knowledge of population dynamics. Basic Mathematical ideas like Geometric vs. Exponential Growth rate. In other words I refuted your claim.

If tomorrow an earthquake totally demolish the Pashtunland and after 100 years some one claiming Reason will totally deny the existence of Pashtuns in 2014 because no archeological site was discovered at that time?

If we do not have archeological site of a race, so automatically we conclude that that race never existed? What is the archeological proof of the prophets like Adam, Ibrahim etc or their world? It means Quran or Bible are wrong.

According to your mathematical formula only Chinese existed few thousand years back but the other milliards of races never existed before 1000 years because their population at that time did not exist! If we go by that formula then almost 2000 years back there was not a single human being on the surface of earth.

[Kushan Prince]

Your 100% correct. The fact most people without any knowledge of history don't realise is that Avestan actually descended from Old Persian as a religious language for Zoroastrian faith.
Pashto hasnt decended from Old Farsi as you clearly pointed out with the word differences. There are many sounds in Pashto that are not found in Farsi:
ټ
ځ
څ
ښ (a kh different from the Farsi خ -- see Raverty)
ډ
ړ
ږ (a retoflex ژ found neither in Sanskrit or Farsi)
ڼ (found neither in Urdu or Farsi)
ې (a softer ay than ی)


Also I personally think Pashtun past is important to the identity of our people. Look at the Greeks they are Orthodox Christians but they value there past and capitalise on it like 300 Rise of the Empire movie. Look at Egypt a very conservative Muslim country benefit hugely from their past through tourism and value it also. Finding out your past doesnt make you non-Muslim, not believing in God does.
Look at Urdu speaking people they have shunned their Hindu roots so much that they changed an entire language (Khar Boli dialect of Hindustani language spoken in Uttar Pradesh) and created purposeless enmity with India.

But old persian isn't descended from avestan. The 2 just happened to borrow words from each other but in general, modern day farsi is NOT descended from avestan, it comes from Pahlavi. Farsi is the language of the iranians and has its origin from fars province.

[Kushan Prince]

If you had read what I wrote Old Farsi transformed into to Avestan, Old Farsi has not come from Avestan.
Modern Farsi is also descended from Old Farsi like Avestan.


Old Persian/Farsi -> Pahlavi (Middle Persian) -> Modern Farsi

Old Farsi -> Avestan

Wtf? i just had major brain freeze reading this crap. this doesn't make sense AT ALL.