Pashtuns before Islam

[Brown Skinned Savage]

I'd love to see Kushan translate that hahahhaha

[HalloIsBack]

I'd love to see Kushan translate that hahahhaha

my first thought!

i can read it and know some words from the text but even me need some time to translate it because my pashto sucks

[HalloIsBack]

badlun still rocks!
he is the best in pashto!

[Brown Skinned Savage]

my first thought!

i can read it and know some words from the text but even me need some time to translate it because my pashto sucks

I could translate it but I'd need to cross reference some of the words because some words have meanings/implications colloquially different than their academic or technical usages

It might take me awhile too.

[HalloIsBack]

I could translate it but I'd need to cross reference some of the words because some words have meanings/implications colloquially different than their academic or technical usages

It might take me awhile too.

the reason you are native speaker im not
so we have a different access to the language

[DMXX]

**** Zoroastrianism, should Aryas follow the religion of the Kalash? Kalash religion is the true religion of Arya, Zoroastrianism has carried semetic influence......

Semitic is a language family. Conventional modern Zoroastrianism is fairly continuous with the variety practiced by Sassanid Persians before the Islamic invasion. As far as I'm aware, the only substantial changes since are restricted to funeral processions in Iran ("towers of silence" were replaced by cremation) and new forms of orthodoxy among Parsis (the conversion debate).

The ancient Persians certainly did appear to contract a lot of cultural motifs from their neighbours, but describing them as "Semitic" is something of a logical disconnect. Additionally, one could argue ancient Persian culture was influenced by the likes of the ancient Assyrians and Neo-Elamites... Religion is another matter entirely.

I'm not well versed with the Kalash religion, but what are the deciding factors regarding the "Aryanness" of a religion? Surely a derivation from the common proto-Indo-Iranian cult should suffice? We're all familiar with the comparisons between the Kalash religion and archaisms present in the Rg Veda; given the presence of near-identical verses between it and the Avesta, it seems intuitive to assign all three as being Indo-Iranian faith systems (extending naturally to modern "Hinduism"* and Zoroastrianism).

The above is just an exercise in reasoning. I personally see little point in asserting a whole-scale revival of the pre-Islamic faiths in places like Iran or Afghanistan. Such a move will drastically diminish whatever spiritual essence may be sustained by them and replaced with what is essentially a reactionary cultural shift back to the pre-Islamic past. Afghanistan does not need the bipolar cultural see-sawing experienced in Iran since the turn of the 20th century, which continues to this day.

If there is to be any significant shifts in the region, I'd much prefer Iranians and Afghans to practice true spiritual self-determinism and not fall into the quagmire of culturo-theological disequilibrium.

* Quotation marks are absolutely not meant to disrespect and only emphasise the point that the numerous Rg Veda derived belief systems in India are incredibly diverse and local differentiation in deities is often observed.

[Badlun]

[MENTION=1201]Toramana[/MENTION] [MENTION=5723]Kushan Prince[/MENTION]


Translation required.

Translation(mostly literal):

The second group was the ones moving towards the West, Aryans , who spread their civilization towards the west of Afghanistan to Istanbul. Two kinds of written materials have been left by these people. One is the book of Avesta which was published by Zoroaster from Balkh Afghanistan and which was accepted in the whole Iran. this book comprised total 815 chapters and 21 volumes.

Names of places , kings and people of Afghanistan have been mentioned in Avesta and many sentences are similar to Pashto language. Because of this reason, Avesta also pertains to the Pashto literary history.

Another language which was made by these Western Aryans from its ancient language is called Old Persian. Some of its written materials(inscriptions) are found on stones and its study is useful in Pashto literary history.

In the north of Afghanistan, on the other side of the Amu river, there are such languages as Saghdi, Khwarzami which has similarities with Pashto, and their study is also useful for Pashto.

[Badlun]

Semitic is a language family. Conventional modern Zoroastrianism is fairly continuous with the variety practiced by Sassanid Persians before the Islamic invasion. As far as I'm aware, the only substantial changes since are restricted to funeral processions in Iran ("towers of silence" were replaced by cremation) and new forms of orthodoxy among Parsis (the conversion debate).

The ancient Persians certainly did appear to contract a lot of cultural motifs from their neighbours, but describing them as "Semitic" is something of a logical disconnect. Additionally, one could argue ancient Persian culture was influenced by the likes of the ancient Assyrians and Neo-Elamites... Religion is another matter entirely.

I'm not well versed with the Kalash religion, but what are the deciding factors regarding the "Aryanness" of a religion? Surely a derivation from the common proto-Indo-Iranian cult should suffice? We're all familiar with the comparisons between the Kalash religion and archaisms present in the Rg Veda; given the presence of near-identical verses between it and the Avesta, it seems intuitive to assign all three as being Indo-Iranian faith systems (extending naturally to modern "Hinduism"* and Zoroastrianism).

The above is just an exercise in reasoning. I personally see little point in asserting a whole-scale revival of the pre-Islamic faiths in places like Iran or Afghanistan. Such a move will drastically diminish whatever spiritual essence may be sustained by them and replaced with what is essentially a reactionary cultural shift back to the pre-Islamic past. Afghanistan does not need the bipolar cultural see-sawing experienced in Iran since the turn of the 20th century, which continues to this day.

If there is to be any significant shifts in the region, I'd much prefer Iranians and Afghans to practice true spiritual self-determinism and not fall into the quagmire of culturo-theological disequilibrium.

* Quotation marks are absolutely not meant to disrespect and only emphasise the point that the numerous Rg Veda derived belief systems in India are incredibly diverse and local differentiation in deities is often observed.

You are right. Complete reversal to Pre islam religions will be a fantasy. However as you suggested , the spirituality of all these religions and spirituality of Islam may be be useful for Pashtuns of today(instead of the Wahabi, Deobandi, Salafi, Tableeghi literal Islam)

[Brown Skinned Savage]

Translation(mostly literal):

The second group was the ones moving towards the West, Aryans , who spread their civilization towards the west of Afghanistan to Istanbul. Two kinds of written materials have been left by these people. One is the book of Avesta which was published by Zoroaster from Balkh Afghanistan and which was accepted in the whole Iran. this book comprised total 815 chapters and 21 volumes.

Names of places , kings and people of Afghanistan have been mentioned in Avesta and many sentences are similar to Pashto language. Because of this reason, Avesta also pertains to the Pashto literary history.

Another language which was made by these Western Aryans from its ancient language is called Old Persian. Some of its written materials(inscriptions) are found on stones and its study is useful in Pashto literary history.

In the north of Afghanistan, on the other side of the Amu river, there are such languages as Saghdi, Khwarzami which has similarities with Pashto, and their study is also useful for Pashto.

This is from Abdul Hai Habibi's book I believe, I remember reading something similar

I think this reference is important because it demonstrates that Pashtuns did not exist in ancient times but probably evolved out of Turks who adopted Iranian languages and Other Surrounding peoples like Soghdians

[DMXX]

One interesting phenomenon in the realm of Iranian history is what I'd describe as a localisation disparity:

- Zoroastrianism took a major foothold in Persia, despite numerous indications the faith arose further east (north Afghanistan seems a good fit)
- The Soghdian language is best attested in the Tarim basin and not its' presumed seat of origin
- The closest language to the NE Iranic Pamiri dialects (aside from Sarikoli in the Tarim) is Ossetic (Caucasus)
- The Parthians spoke a NW Iranic language, yet the prominent tribe (Parni) which seemed to initiate their ascent to power were Saka (presumably NE Iranic speakers)

On that note, we would probably need to add that the most dominant East Iranic language today (Pashto) has to rely on extinct or marginalised sister languages to aid in reconstructing the past.

Note this doesn't support any particular argument or viewpoint. Just a set of curious instances of non-linearity in the Iranic-speaking world, both historical and modern.