Pashtuns before Islam

[Tjanaparh]

I may post really many materials on Avestan, so you can compare yourself!
What about that, I may create a theme in the Kitabtun for that !


One thing on Avestan.
Avestan was used in Iran as a dead, non spoken language, so mostly people recognize differences in the language of Avesta (old and young Avestan). With time probably many things from Pahlavi could also be joined.
Also the Avesta was writte down quite late.
In the mindset of various indoeuropeans education had to be oral, and so was the avesta for long time.
As "Zoroastrism" was made into a religion, an influence of Avestan on Farsi is very probable, even Armenia or Georgian has words close to Avestan.

Phonetics of Avestan are very different to Farsi, it has more sounds, you may see this in the lessons that'll be posted soon.




One question I'd like to adress to my Pashtun friends and brothers, what is Your relation to Pamirians ?
I thinke there are some regions were both live side by side. Still I mostly only hear on Pashto Ossetian connection here on the forum.

[Baraki]

^Very interesting analysis there Bengal Tiger thank you.

However i like to add that the modern day belief today among pashtuns is that we believe our people originally started out from central Afghanistan from the ghor province and spread out towards the north south, and east. That blonde pashtun you posted looks a lot like a nuristani man or a kunari Pashtun, but nether less, we come in all shapes and colours.

Also i would like to add that Malala Yousafzai wrote in her book that her father was discriminated against constantly for his dark skin and not looking "pashtun enough." Which would indicate skin colour is a taboo among many pashtuns. I think you may be right, her father could be a pashtunized dard or and indic as KPK was not originally Pashtun before islam. The mongoloid influence however i believe is recent and must be intermixing with local hazaras or turkic ghazis that settled in the cities during mahmud of ghazni's time although it is very minimal compared to tajiks.

While Malala's father could be Pashtunized, who knows. He has the common hazel/honey eye color that many Pakhtuns have. Skin color is a trait that receives a lot of discrimination amongst our people and it is very unfortunate. This really isn't a pashtun-centric issue though, in fact, it might be even worse in India/Punjab. Many pashtuns may have dark skin complexion but then still retain the stereotypical pashtun nose or the stereotypical pashtun eyes as well.

[Kushan Prince]

While Malala's father could be Pashtunized, who knows. He has the common hazel/honey eye color that many Pakhtuns have. Skin color is a trait that receives a lot of discrimination amongst our people and it is very unfortunate. This really isn't a pashtun-centric issue though, in fact, it might be even worse in India/Punjab. Many pashtuns may have dark skin complexion but then still retain the stereotypical pashtun nose or the stereotypical pashtun eyes as well.

I agree completely. I think Pashtuns should let go of these negative traits because it makes us no look better then indians. They have an inferiority complex, we don't and Islam says all man is equal and that an "arab is not better then a non-arab." We come in all colours, but unfortunately most pashtuns don't realize that and will automatically label a darker skinned Pashtun as "Punjabi" as an insult. I also agree with the last part, most tanner skinned pashtuns still look very indo-eruopean for the most part but we do have exceptions!

[Bengal_Tiger]

I may post really many materials on Avestan, so you can compare yourself!
What about that, I may create a theme in the Kitabtun for that !


One thing on Avestan.
Avestan was used in Iran as a dead, non spoken language, so mostly people recognize differences in the language of Avesta (old and young Avestan). With time probably many things from Pahlavi could also be joined.
Also the Avesta was writte down quite late.
In the mindset of various indoeuropeans education had to be oral, and so was the avesta for long time.
As "Zoroastrism" was made into a religion, an influence of Avestan on Farsi is very probable, even Armenia or Georgian has words close to Avestan.

Phonetics of Avestan are very different to Farsi, it has more sounds, you may see this in the lessons that'll be posted soon.




One question I'd like to adress to my Pashtun friends and brothers, what is Your relation to Pamirians ?
I thinke there are some regions were both live side by side. Still I mostly only hear on Pashto Ossetian connection here on the forum.

I have read about Pashto Ossetian connections before this site even existed.

Linguists agree that Ossetian is the closest language to Pashto.

[DaZahroJaam.]

پٹھان کو آفغان کہتے ہین آفغان اسلئے کہتے ہے کہ آفغان سلیمان علیہ السلام کے ایک بیٹے کا نام تھا اور ان کو جننات کی زبان سے پیار ہوگیا تھا تو انہوں نے اپنے والد سلیمان علیہ السلام سے کہا کہ آپ جننات کو کہے کہ مجھے اپنی زبان سیکھائیں سلمیان علیہ اسلام نے اپنے بیٹے کی درخواست قبول کی اور جننات کو حکم دیا کہ آفغان کو جننات کی زبان سیکھائی جائے وہ زبان بعد مین پختنو کی نام سے پہجانا گیا پھٹان کی اصلیت اور قومیت کے بارےمیں جو دلائل ہیں وہ یہ کہ پٹھان حضرت ابراہیم علیہ السلام کی اولادمیں سے ہیں اور اسحاق علیہ السلام کے اولاد ہیں، اور قومیت سے بنی اسرائیل ہے انگریز مورخین لکتھے ہیں کہ پٹھان قوم ارجینیا کی ایک حصے میں رہتے تھے ارجینیا کے لوگوں کا دعوی ہے کہ افغان یا پٹھان ارجینیا ہم میں سے ہیں کیونکہ البانیہ کے اوغان جو کے بعد مین افغان بنا ارجینیا سے ہندوستان کی طرف چل پڑے ایک اور انگریز مورخ لکھتا ہے کہ اسرائیل قبائیل بہت تکالیف اور مصیبتون کے بعد افغانستان میں آباد ہوگئے ،جب حضور اکرم صلی اللہ علیہ وسلّم نےاسلام کی تبلیغ شروع کی اور لوگ جوق درجوق اسلام مین داخل ہونے لگے تو اس وقت پٹھان قوم کا سردار جس کا نام قیس عبدالرشید تھا اپنے پورے خاندان کیساتھ محمد صلی اللہ علیہ وسلّم کی حضور میں حاضر ہوااور محمد صلی اللہ علیہ وسلّم کے ہاتھ پر بیعت کر کے مسلمان ہوگئے اس لئے دنیا بھر مین جہاں بھی پٹھان ہونگے مسلمان ہونگے دنیا میں پٹھان ہی واحد قوم ہے جس میں اسلام کے بغیر کوئی مذہب نہیں اگر پٹھان سے پوچا جائے کہ اپ پہلے مسلمان ہے یا پٹھان ؟ تو جواب ہوگا کہ میں پانچ ہزار سال سے پٹھان ہوں اور چودہ سو سال پہلے مسلمان ہوں.

is this true?? is the word afghan derived from feghaan?? if not, what does it mean?? i kind of..honestly don't remember.

[khushal]

^^That's BS from farsiban nationalists who try to demean the term afghan.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Every race, ethnic group, nation and individual has a past, has a history, evolutionary process. Nothing appears all of the sudden as one had an unreasonable claim that all of the Pashtuns appeared all of the sudden in 1000 AD and there were no Pashtuns before Islam.

.

The problem is though is that was NOT the claim. The claim is that Pashtuns don't have a 5000 year old history. By admitting that Pashtuns evolved out of other people that affirms that Pashtuns did not exist in ancient times. The claim suggests that AROUND 1000 AD is when Pashtuns became their OWN distinct group with the fledglings of their own language borrowed out of the regional languages like Soghdian, Parthian, Khotanese and so on. So that means Pashtuns as a UNIQUE ethnic identity can only be traced back to 1000 years. Obviously it would be absurd to claim that Pashtuns magically appeared out of nowhere, BUT that is exactly what the 5000 year Old Hypothesis suggests, because there is nore irrefutable reference to Pashtuns before the year 1000.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

If tomorrow an earthquake totally demolish the Pashtunland and after 100 years some one claiming Reason will totally deny the existence of Pashtuns in 2014 because no archeological site was discovered at that time?

If we do not have archeological site of a race, so automatically we conclude that that race never existed? What is the archeological proof of the prophets like Adam, Ibrahim etc or their world? It means Quran or Bible are wrong.

According to your mathematical formula only Chinese existed few thousand years back but the other milliards of races never existed before 1000 years because their population at that time did not exist! If we go by that formula then almost 2000 years back there was not a single human being on the surface of earth.

However, this is an absurd argument because we know a lot about the Geological History of the Afghanistan land mass at least as long as humans have settled it. We have a great deal of surveying data which would determine what Earthquakes happened where and and to what degree they bhappened. Furthermore If an Earthquake of the magnitude you speak of happened in the past and nothing was left by the devastation of the Earthquake then these are the predictive results we would find.

a.) All the other regional cultures would have been destroyed too and we'd have no evidence of their existence either. Yet .....WE DO have evidence of their existence.

b.) If the Earthquake destroyed ancient Pashtuns, there would be NO Pashtuns today or at least devastated to a point of extremely low population. If Pashtuns survived the Earthquake we'd have evidence of their ancient culture. We can compare other cultures who had devastating Earthquakes and we can also find relics of their civilizations

c.) There would be records of such a great event in such Annals of historians of the time from the surrounding regions. We'd also have Geological signatures of such an Earthquake.

So even if we assume your hypothesis ......even if some future event would happen, we'd be able to find out to a very high degree that some civilization existed.

Remember Badlun If you want a Scientific Approach, THEN you have to apply science here too. No excuses.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

your missing many important variables in your analysis. The most important one being migration. Many people constantly migrate from central Asia to South Asia because of the abundant resources in South Asia. Also population tend to grow much faster in place with abundant resources than in places like Afghanistan with very little resources.

A perfect example is Mongolia whose people at one time conquered most of the known world. If you compare the population of Mongolia today to the Mongolian population in Afghanistan, you would notice that the Mongolian population in Afghanistan far exceeds the Mongolian population of Mongolia not to mention that most experts theorize that the y chromosome of Ghengis Khan exceeds 25 million all over the world which is more than 10 times the population of Mongolia.

Point being the Pashtun population in South Asia could far exceed the 50 million in pashtunland, but those Pashtuns have been" Indic-ized" just like the Mongolians have been Persianized in Afghanistan.

Actually Your point is Implicitly Accounted for by the statement you made. When Mongolians spread we have their Genetic Markers in different populations to account their migration

However based on Genetic Evidence Pashtuns never made any significant genetic inroads. Even populations claiming Pashtun descent actually often turn out to just be Muslim Converts from native populations of India who may/may not have been converted by Pashtuns who conquered them.

Take a look for yourself

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2859343/

[Sarbani]

Did Pashtuns practice Hinduism during the Hindu Shahi and Zunbil rule? What about Buddhism?

[Cobra]

Most likely Jewishism. I'm just kidding.

[mazdaarya]

Pashtuns, Tajiks, Pashayis and other Aryas (Aryans) of Afghanistan must return to their original Zoroastrian religion. Zoroastrianism is was created in North Afghanistan - Pashto is a direct descendent of the Avestan language which was the language of Zoroastrianism.

[kanishka]

Pashtuns, Tajiks, Pashayis and other Aryas (Aryans) of Afghanistan must return to their original Zoroastrian religion. Zoroastrianism is was created in North Afghanistan - Pashto is a direct descendent of the Avestan language which was the language of Zoroastrianism.

**** Zoroastrianism, should Aryas follow the religion of the Kalash? Kalash religion is the true religion of Arya, Zoroastrianism has carried semetic influence......

[mazdaarya]

**** Zoroastrianism, should Aryas follow the religion of the Kalash? Kalash religion is the true religion of Arya, Zoroastrianism has carried semetic influence......

I'm sure Zoroastrianism practiced by Zoroastrians of India is not befouled like the one in Iran. This religion topic is a hard one - Kalasha religion, Hinduism and Zoroastrianism is basically the same - we have the same ideology - same gods - just pronounced differently. For example in Zoroastrianism we have Yama, Mitra, Ahura etc - and in Hinduism they are Yima, Mithra, Asura...

[Bengal_Tiger]

[MENTION=1201]Toramana[/MENTION] [MENTION=5723]Kushan Prince[/MENTION]


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