Marrying a Hazara

[ScimitarXEdge]

it is a reference to your saying pre-islamic oral poetry never existed in the region....dont u think the kings of the sassanid, parthian and kushan empires fancied music and poetry?

I never said it never existed? I said we wouldn't know of their existence if they really vanished!

[Shayesta]

^ Well, I am sure I have heard Iranians use the word 'Qool', which means promise in Farsi, many times. And they actually use the 'Q', not 'GH'. Or are you talking about the written Farsi?

[Leonine]

is that why in literature asp (horse) has become asb and peroz feroz and PARSI FARSI!!!!

[Leonine]

i never said it never existed? I said we wouldn't know of their existence if they really vanished!

you have to use common sense...

[ScimitarXEdge]

^ Well, I am sure I have heard Iranians use the word 'Qool', which means promise in Farsi, many times. And they actually use the 'Q', not 'GH'. Or are you talking about the written Farsi?

no Spoken, written it looks like Qaaf.

[ScimitarXEdge]

you have to use common sense...

Your common sense is called baseless speculation in academic circles, just saying.

[Shayesta]

^ So you mean spoken Farsi never uses 'Qaaf'? Because I am sure I have heard them use it, though have to read up about it more.

And Leonine, if your point is that Farsi isn't using any 'P' in it's alphabets any more, then that's wrong because there are still some words starting with the 'P' in Farsi.

[ScimitarXEdge]

I know girls named Pirzodukht, Pirdokht, Parezdokht.

[Leonine]

^ So you mean spoken Farsi never uses 'Qaaf'? Because I am sure I have heard them use it, though have to read up about it more.

And Leonine, if your point is that Farsi isn't using any 'P' in it's alphabets any more, then that's wrong because there are still some words starting with the 'P' in Farsi.

no thats not my point..my point is that alot of words with p have been changed to other letters due to arabic...taking a break

[retro]

Apparently you close your eyes to the Golden Age of Islam where most Muslim societies were prosperous; but of course your intellectually dishonest way of skirting past that is saying they never existed.

Of course, Baghdad/Abbasid, never existed, Andalusia? Never existed, mythical even. Abdalis empire ...also never existed. So easy to ignore history when it doesn't serve your propaganda.

Apparently you make the false association that when we say Islam produced viable cultures and societies it means that Islam produced utopias. Such intellectually dishonest false dichotomies aren't what anyone is promoting here. We acknowledge there has been internal rifes , but there are internal rifes in most Modern Capitalist societies; some worse than all Islamic rifes combined. Namely World War II, World War I, Civil War. The difference is even during these often cited times of Internal Rifes amongst Muslims, they still had viable societies for hundreds of years.

Even if we're to take the comment about European Sex-Tourisms as fact, which they very well could be. I wouldn't know since I don't go around lurking for such things in my private life. These regions especially North Africa, had been debilitated by a long colonization by the French who had disrupted the moral fiber of every aspect of their society. So the situation there is not Islam, but a loss of Islam.

There was never any alleged sex tourism prancing about North African women when Islamic Society had predominant hold. More evidence that claims of Arab Imperialism vis 'a vis Islam is a forged attempt at Emotional Black mail by Crony Nationalists and their REAL Imperial masters of European and North American origins.

Even if we rely on the argument that the apparencies of moral problems between Europe and Middle East or Asian society are a difference of something happening overtly vs. happening discreetly (not discretely ..that is a mathematical concept). Then it still works against the favor of Europe. For something becomes open when it becomes a NORM of society, and that it is given societal and legal sanction, something happening discreetly means the overwhelming majority have objected to the practices and it is not a norm. This is a much better condition to be in that a society that has deemed "wrong" as "right".

I'd be careful about harking back to the Golden Age of despotic, Islamic slavery, agression, genocide and barbarism, if I where you. As the Arabs glory was built on the ashes of far greater civilisations, than himself has ever created. I am no where near as delusional, as by dimwitted Arab brother and you sell my people far to short.

North African women are on the whole virtuous. However fallen women are to be found everywhere and many women have a less than desirable aspect to their nature. Since it is the habit of women to tend naturally stray and they are also more easily influenced by insidious, corrupting forces than men.

Whilst I don't necessarily approve of such women. I won't condemn them either. As I think far less of men who are abusive toward or exploit women than women that do the wrong things. Now perhaps that makes me a lesser man than the likes of you. However I very seriously doubt it.

I am also only to well aware, as to the extent that West has declined both morally and spiritually. However the West has it's own band of insidious enemies. Many of whom seek to subvert it's culture towards their own goals and their is another side to the coin.

Russia is full of prostitutes who are drug addicts and it's your Jihad that is no small part is keeping these girls locked in there brothels. So before you appoint yourselfs as self righteous, moral guardians who find fault with others. I strongly suggest, that you address your own peoples shortcomings and put your own house in far better order. As I can assure you that it isn't Western men, who are engaging in the trafficking of women for the purposes of sexual exploitation.

[ScimitarXEdge]

I'd be careful about harking back to the Golden Age of despotic, Islamic slavery, agression, genocide and barbarism, if I where you. As the Arabs glory was built on the ashes of far greater civilisations, than himself has ever created. I am no where near as delusional, as by dimwitted Arab brother and you sell my people far to short.

North African women are on the whole virtuous. However fallen women are to be found everywhere and many women have a less than desirable aspect to their nature. Since it is the habit of women to tend naturally stray and they are also more easily influenced by insidious, corrupting forces than men.

Whilst I don't necessarily approve of such women. I won't condemn them either. As I think far less of men who are abusive toward or exploit women than women that do the wrong things. Now perhaps that makes me a lesser man than the likes of you. However I very seriously doubt it.

I am also only to well aware, as to the extent that West has declined both morally and spiritually. However the West has it's own band of insidious enemies. Many of whom seek to subvert it's culture towards their own goals and their is another side to the coin.

Russia is full of prostitutes who are drug addicts and it's your Jihad that is no small part is keeping these girls locked in there brothels. So before you appoint yourselfs as self righteous, moral guardians who find fault with others. I strongly suggest, that you address your own peoples shortcomings and put your own house in far better order. As I can assure you that it isn't Western men, who are engaging in the trafficking of women for the purposes of sexual exploitation.

You mean the Barbaric Islamic Slavery where mamluks could end up being leaders and have their own prosperity. Where Persia was producing science while Europe was dying from plagues?


I don't know who you're trying to fool, yourself or others, on every measurable scale Islamic "Golden Age" was more productive and prosperous than Pre-Islamic Iran and Medieval Europe ever was.

If your "Persian Pride" is getting in the way from acknowledging that, then this is your problem. From an objective standpoint, it is better that the flames of "Fire Worship" was extinguished so tht Al-Farabi and Al-Tusi could prevail. We wouldn't have had A Biruni, Al Khwarezmi, Farabi, Ibn Haytham, without .a foundational Islamic society to promote and sanctify their works.

Don't get me wrong. the Achaemanids were worthy of note, indubitably. However the Islamic Golden Age far excelled them, when it came to scientific progress, social justice, morality and cultural depth. Islam did not however rise over it's ashes. In fact it were Parthians who rose over them, then after Sassanids rose over the Parthians. Sassanids used to have a practice where brothers and sisters, were encouraged to sleep together. I think that example alone demonstrates how decayed they were as a society by the time Islam came into the picture. You're right in that sense, maybe Islam did rise over its ashes, but those were ashes were there long before Islam set foot in the area. Persia wouldn't have fallen so quickly if there wasn't something wrong with their own internal morale.

North Africa is very unique and dynamic case. While the Ummayads were undoubtedbly chauvnistic, the Doctrine of Islam certainly elevated them from the threat of the Roman Yoke, which is why they rapidly converted to Islam, such rapid conversion would not be possible if Islam came in as a tyrannizing force. It's absurdly intellectually dishonest to claim Islam intruded upon North Africa when at the time Islam was present the Byzantines/Romans were imposing their hegemony. so unless you're claiming Roman identity as native of the Berbers, then this claim is deeply exaggerated. North Africa prior to European Colonialization was a prominent region, Islamic Andalus which stretched from Spain to Algeria produced Muhiyideen Ibn Arabi and Ibn Rushd. It even encouraged the works of Maimonides.

We can agree that North African Women for the most part are virtuous and dignified, and are often immensely beautiful. I cherish their dignity as I would my own mother and sister. On the whole they have retained their dignity despite the colonial intrusions of the French and have fared reasonably well against their affront. However unfortunately there are a significant number of North African women and men who are unfortunate byproducts of moral deterioration implemented by the French Colonialists. They're the results of Europeans spreading and infecting their societies with these dysfunctions. Some of the situations I have seen are heart breaking to me. This situation is the consequence of the loss of Islam not because of it.

While to an extent we agree there's also an extent we disagree regarding the circumstances of women. While I do agree that due to the intrinsic vulnerabilities of women, that women often fall victim to insidious schemes that attempt to dupe them into forsaking their dignity, but this is more so by institutional design. Those nefarious entities which attempt to cultivate this perversion of womanhood are doing so precisely because the virtues of women are the lifeline of society, and by destroying their women they destroy their society in turn. So while I do agree that men who exploit women are detestable, for it is the male knowing the vulnerabilities of women are obliged to guard them, however, the capacity of virtue is also within women and therefore it is similarly their duty and responsibility to guard their own virtue when the men cannot. And thus are equally reprehensible.

I don't see how "it's my "jihad".... that is causing or involved with prostitution of women in Russia. If you mean that the collapse of the Soviet Union evolved into the deterioration of russian society due to losing in Afghanistan. Then I make no apologies; they viewed Afghanistan as their property, when it wasn't . Even if America was trying to goad them into Afghanistan, it was their hubris itself which motivated them to actually do so. If now their women are prostitutes, it is their own fault. If you mean that extremist groups are somehow involved in trafficking, then I don't have any associations with any such groups. Merely because they wear similar tag as I do doesn't mean our goals or ideals are the same. Perhaps there is overlap but distinctions as well. Their actions here would be INSPITE of Islam once again not because of it.


No one denies there are serious problems of all varieties that exist in the Muslim world, but see, this is precisely why we're endorsing such a Movement so we can expunge these problems before they become the Norm, before Kandahar becomes an Amsterdam or Saigon. We are doing this we we can restore our house to it's Proper order, and not end up merely emulating the disheveled hedonist bastion of Europe. So we can tell immigrant Muslim communities you can come home now, it's safe.....and leave these infested cultures we have been forced to migrate to behind. As for human trafficking and sex trafficking. The problems that exist are due to the loss of Islam after colonial interference, not because of it. Europe is one of the LARGEST focal points for human trafficking. If you think otherwise , you must live in a rose tinted world.

[Leonine]

dude you should make a collection of all your posts and make a book...i could never get myself to put such effort on forum posts lol

what I lament is the huge cultural changes that Islam brought. I am not gonna lie, some where good. However, the Greeks invaded.. You didnt see them make such huge changes in the culture of the region as Arabs did...i dont know, perhaps it was because the arabs brought a new religion... Nor did when the Greeks invade did hordes of Greek settlers immigrate to the newly conquered areas to function as new nobility like Arab nomads who had never seen green started settling Persia, North Africa and Khorasan en masse.


someone make a new thread...why is all this even on this thread?

[ScimitarXEdge]

dude you should make a collection of all your posts and make a book...i could never get myself to put such effort on forum posts lol

what I lament is the huge cultural changes that Islam brought. I am not gonna lie, some where good. However, the Greeks invaded.. You didnt see them make such huge changes in the culture of the region as Arabs did...i dont know, perhaps it was because the arabs brought a new religion... Nor did when the Greeks invade did hordes of Greek settlers immigrate to the newly conquered areas to function as new nobility like Arab nomads who had never seen green started settling Persia, North Africa and Khorasan en masse.


someone make a new thread...why is all this even on this thread?

I guess you're not familiar with Greco-Bactrians.

[Leonine]

You don't see any sign of greco-bactrian influence in contemporary afghanistan now...do you?

[randolph85]

do u think that is because they willingly faded into obscurity?