Marrying a Hazara

[ScimitarXEdge]

you can't say the arabised people's cultures, languages, lineage and traditions have existed as the same after the arab invasion as they were before...

changes after the arab invasion examples:

20%-60% of Persian (dari, farsi) is Arabic words which is now extremely sad and sickening! you cannot even talk colloquially without saying arabic words...

the only pre-Islamic Aryan festival that has survived in Afghanistan is Nawroz..Iran still has Mehragan, Tiraagan, etc..

people's lineages and blood were corrupted...it is so contemptible how so many people in afg, iran, etc.... claim they are sayeds and descendants of various arabs

That's true about cultures that were never invaded. I don't see what is sad and sickening about having Arabic words. I mean look at both of us, neither of us are speaking or reading or writing our native languages, we're using English, the worst colonizers of the world and I don't see you grieving about it.

At least persians still have Persian irregardless of whether it has Arabic words. Persian has used loan words from Syraic, Aramaic, Chaldean and even non-Persian Indo-Aryan languages long before Arabs came into the picture. Even the Pre-Islamic persian script was ARAMAIC, and this was decided by the Persian Kings themselves. It was the Persians themselves who chose to adopt foreign words into their language.

You're right most of the Persian festivals were expunged, and for good reason they were celebrating the Birth of Mithras and worshipping Fravaharan and even adopting Babylonian and Akkadian customs from their Pagan Ages.

Good Riddance?

[ScimitarXEdge]

Afghanistan needs to develop it's domestic energy sector and it needs revenues as the country is in a mess. A lot of Afghans look like they aren't eating properly and have healthcare problems.

You confuse morality with religion and they are not the same thing. The only difference is that in the west everything is on display in plain view. Whilst in Middle East nations, they are far more discrete. However I know that their are certain Western guys, who go to Middle Eastern nations, just to sleep with Arab or North Africa *****s since this is their preference.

Apparently you close your eyes to the Golden Age of Islam where most Muslim societies were prosperous; but of course your intellectually dishonest way of skirting past that is saying they never existed.

Of course, Baghdad/Abbasid, never existed, Andalusia? Never existed, mythical even. Abdalis empire ...also never existed. So easy to ignore history when it doesn't serve your propaganda.

Apparently you make the false association that when we say Islam produced viable cultures and societies it means that Islam produced utopias. Such intellectually dishonest false dichotomies aren't what anyone is promoting here. We acknowledge there has been internal rifes , but there are internal rifes in most Modern Capitalist societies; some worse than all Islamic rifes combined. Namely World War II, World War I, Civil War. The difference is even during these often cited times of Internal Rifes amongst Muslims, they still had viable societies for hundreds of years.

Even if we're to take the comment about European Sex-Tourisms as fact, which they very well could be. I wouldn't know since I don't go around lurking for such things in my private life. These regions especially North Africa, had been debilitated by a long colonization by the French who had disrupted the moral fiber of every aspect of their society. So the situation there is not Islam, but a loss of Islam.

There was never any alleged sex tourism prancing about North African women when Islamic Society had predominant hold. More evidence that claims of Arab Imperialism vis 'a vis Islam is a forged attempt at Emotional Black mail by Crony Nationalists and their REAL Imperial masters of European and North American origins.

Even if we rely on the argument that the apparencies of moral problems between Europe and Middle East or Asian society are a difference of something happening overtly vs. happening discreetly (not discretely ..that is a mathematical concept). Then it still works against the favor of Europe. For something becomes open when it becomes a NORM of society, and that it is given societal and legal sanction, something happening discreetly means the overwhelming majority have objected to the practices and it is not a norm. This is a much better condition to be in that a society that has deemed "wrong" as "right".

[ScimitarXEdge]

Not unlike the Europeans in the America's. Arabs are usurpers long and have a History of stealing peoples lands and cultures such as the Egyptians. I don't hate Arabs. However certainly I wouldn't trust them.

The difference is, that Egypt, has long been seen as a citadel in the Arab world; where as Europeans in the America's left their respective "lands" as third world cess pool. throwing away a husk when corn is extracted.

Apparently you need to look up the definition of "usurp"

when Persians came to Afghanistan and tried to impose themselves and pay tribute to Persian culture , THIS was usurping. (by the way I have nothing against Persian culture, just Nationalism)

The sad reality is, the Persians, under their Nationalistic fervor were more treacherous colonialistic than Arabs were even under the Ummayads.

Maybe that's why the Seistanis helped the Arabs exterminate Khusraw?

[Leonine]

That's true about cultures that were never invaded. I don't see what is sad and sickening about having Arabic words. I mean look at both of us, neither of us are speaking or reading or writing our native languages, we're using English, the worst colonizers of the world and I don't see you grieving about it.

At least persians still have Persian irregardless of whether it has Arabic words. Persian has used loan words from Syraic, Aramaic, Chaldean and even non-Persian Indo-Aryan languages long before Arabs came into the picture. Even the Pre-Islamic persian script was ARAMAIC, and this was decided by the Persian Kings themselves. It was the Persians themselves who chose to adopt foreign words into their language.

You're right most of the Persian festivals were expunged, and for good reason they were celebrating the Birth of Mithras and worshipping Fravaharan and even adopting Babylonian and Akkadian customs from their Pagan Ages.

Good Riddance?

I would like you to know that I do not hold English in a very high regard like I do Persian and Arabic. I don't hate Arabic but I respect it. As a language, it has every right to exist BUT NO LANGUAGE HAS A RIGHT TO ENCROACH UPON ANOTHER except in the area where the foreign language brings a new concept, religious terms in this case (Islam). You know this has happened when you realize your language has borrowed the most basic of terms from another language.. I am not grieving about using English because I live in a country where it is the official language and English is also the de facto international language. If Arabs had created the computer and Internet, I would have no problem communicating in Arabic or Persian.

You are right. The PErsian language did have loanwords from those Semitic languages but not nearly at the scale it does now from Arabic. It becomes really hard for the locals to preserve their language if the official language of the government is Arabic and is supported and used everywhere and especially for such a vast amount of time..

How about all the pre-Islamic oral poetry and books lost due to the Arab invasion?

[retro]

And more the reason we shouldn't trust you since you're ostensibly lying and are being intellectually dishonest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berbers



exposed.

You need to get your facts straight before you accuse other people of lying pal!

Those so-called are not "ethnic Berbers" and their are only 7 million ethnic Berbers left in North Africa. The Arabized-Berbers where the Moors and the more Africanised-Berbers are Berbers who mixed with the Arabs African slaves. Arabs and black Africans aren't from the Maghreb. However the Arab invaded and conquered the entire region under the banner of Islam.

The people in this video below are Berbers and they are indigenous to North Africa (Afroasiatic peoples).

‪kahina la kabyle‬‏ - YouTube

[ScimitarXEdge]

You need to get your facts straight before you accuse other people of lying pal!

Those so-called are not "ethnic Berbers" and their are only 7 million ethnic Berbers left in North Africa. The Arabized-Berbers where the Moors and the more Africanised-Berbers are Berbers who mixed with the Arabs African slaves. Arabs and black Africans aren't from the Maghreb. However the Arab invaded and conquered the entire region under the banner of Islam.

The people in this video below are Berbers and they are indigenous to North Africa (Afroasiatic peoples).

You're either confused or intentionally being deceitful. Please stop trying to portray yourself as some sort of Ally to the Berbers against the Arabs

Persian Nationalists would be ethnically cleansing Berbers the way they have done to Balouch. If Iran Zameen Parast individuals had their way we wouldn't even know who the Berbers were. I'm more than happy that the Sassanids were crushed, they deserved it for their henous regional bullying. It's audacious how desperately Nationalist Persians try to exploit other peoples struggles to use that as a justification for their own Imperialism.

You're right Iran will one day be united with Afghanistan, under Islam, not your ethnic hierarchal nonsense.

Again evidence you're lying.

• • Morocco: In 1952, André Basset ("La langue berbère", Handbook of African Languages, Part I, Oxford) estimated that a "small majority" of Morocco's population spoke Berber. The 1960 census estimated that 34% of Moroccans spoke Berber, including bi-, tri-, and quadrilinguals. In 2000, Karl Prasse cited "more than half" in an interview conducted by Brahim Karada at Tawalt.com. According to the Ethnologue (by deduction from its Moroccan Arabic figures), the Berber-speaking population should be estimated at 35% or around 10.5 million speakers.[9] However, the figures it gives for individual languages only add up to 7.5 million, divided into three dialects:
    
    
    • Riff: 1.5 million (1991)[10]
    • Shilha: 3 million (1998)[11]
    • Central Morocco Tamazight: 3 million (1998)[12]
    • INALCO estimates the figure of Middle-Atlas speakers at 4-5 million[13]
    • INALCO estimates the figure of Shilha speakers at 8 million[14]

  • Algeria: In 1906, the total population speaking Berber languages in Algeria (excluding the thinly populated Sahara) was estimated at 1,305,730 out of 4,447,149, i.e. 29%. (Doutté & Gautier, Enquête sur la dispersion de la langue berbère en Algérie, faite par l'ordre de M. le Gouverneur Général, Alger 1913.) The 1911 census, however, found 1,084,702 speakers out of 4,740,526, i.e. 23%; Doutté & Gautier suggest that this was the result of a serious undercounting of Shawiya in areas of widespread bilingualism. A trend was noted for Berber groups surrounded by Arabic (as in Blida) to adopt Arabic, while Arabic speakers surrounded by Berber (as in Sikh ou Meddour near Tizi-Ouzou) tended to adopt Berber. In 1952, André Basset estimated that about a third of Algeria's population spoke Berber. The Algerian census of 1966 found 2,297,997 out of 12,096,347 Algerians, or 19%, to speak "Berber". In 1980, Salem Chaker estimated that "in Algeria, 3,650,000, or one out of five Algerians, speak a Berber language" (Chaker 1984, pp. 8–9). According to the Ethnologue [2], more recent estimates include 14% (corresponding to the total figures it gives for each Berber language added together, 4 million) and (by deduction from its Algerian Arabic figures) 29% (Hunter 1996). Most of these are accounted for by two dialects (percentages based on historical population data from appropriate dates [3]):
    
    
    • Kabyle: 2,540,000 = 9% (Ethnologue, 1995) – 6,000,000 = 20% (Ethnologue, 1998). Total for all countries (Ethnologue): 3,126,000. (Needless to say, the latter two figures, though cited by the same source, are mutually contradictory.) Mainly in Algiers, Bejaia, Tizi-Ouzou, Bouira, Setif and Boumerdes.
    • Shawiya: 1.4 million (Ethnologue, 1993), equivalent to 5% of the population. Mainly in Batna, Khenchela, Sétif, Souk Ahras, Oum-El-Bouaghi, Tebessa.

  A third group, despite a very small population, accounts for most of the area speaking Berber:
  
  

  • Tuareg 25,000 in Algeria (Ethnologue, 1987), mainly in the Ahaggar mountains of the Sahara. Most Tuareg live in Mali and Niger (see below).

  • Tunisia: Basset (1952) estimated about 1%, as did Penchoen (1968). According to the Ethnologue, there are only 26,000 speakers (1998) of a Berber language it calls "Djerbi" , but which Tunisians call "Shelha", in Tunisia, all in the south around Djerba and Matmata. The more northerly enclave of Sened apparently no longer speaks Berber. This would make 0.3% of the population.
  • Libya: According to the Ethnologue (by deduction from its combined Libyan Arabic and Egyptian Arabic figures) the non-Arabic-speaking population, most of which would be Berber, is estimated at 4% (1991, 1996). However, the individual language figures it gives add up to 162,000, i.e. about 3%. This is mostly accounted for by languages:
    
    
    • Nafusi language in Zuwarah and Jabal Nafusa: 141,000 (1998).
    • Tahaggart Tuareg of Ghat: 17,000 (Johnstone 1993).
  • Egypt: The oasis of Siwa near the Libyan border speaks a Berber language; according to the Ethnologue, there are 5,000 speakers there (1995). Its population in 1907 was 3884 (according to the 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica); the claimed lack of increase seems surprising.
  • Mauritania: According to the Ethnologue, only 200-300 speakers of Zenaga remain (1998). It also mentions Tamasheq, but does not provide a population figure for it. Most non-Arabic speakers in Mauritania speak Niger-Congo languages.
  • Mali: The Ethnologue counts 440,000 Tuareg (1991) speaking:

  Tamasheq: 250,000Tamajaq: 190,000

Persian Nationalists, 0 ....Pan Islam, 10

[ScimitarXEdge]

I would like you to know that I do not hold English in a very high regard like I do Persian and Arabic. I don't hate Arabic but I respect it. As a language, it has every right to exist BUT NO LANGUAGE HAS A RIGHT TO ENCROACH UPON ANOTHER except in the area where the foreign language brings a new concept, religious terms in this case (Islam). You know this has happened when you realize your language has borrowed the most basic of terms from another language.. I am not grieving about using English because I live in a country where it is the official language and English is also the de facto international language. If Arabs had created the computer and Internet, I would have no problem communicating in Arabic or Persian.

You are right. The PErsian language did have loanwords from those Semitic languages but not nearly at the scale it does now from Arabic. It becomes really hard for the locals to preserve their language if the official language of the government is Arabic and is supported and used everywhere and especially for such a vast amount of time..

How about all the pre-Islamic oral poetry and books lost due to the Arab invasion?

The way you see English as a international linga franca, that was the same case for Arabic several centuries ago, but I digress.

If Arabs invented the computer? If that's your reasoning, you should learn Khwaremian, since that's the language of the man who developed Algorithms which computers run on.

Persian had an Aramaic script, by their OWN choice, the level of loan words was probably on par, I mean even a word like "Koh" and "Ab" are Semitic. Like the Sumerian God "AB-SU" means " deep waters".

Which oral poetry? If we don't have any of it today, how would you know they exist?

[Leonine]

are u kidding me? aab is not semitic? go to this link and go under persian..it shows that the word ab has proto-indo european roots.
آب - Wiktionary
the word exists also in pashto. mesopotamians prolly borrowed it from persians or elamites or maybe a coincidence who knows? you didnt even prove koh..

my reasoning is not if arabs invented the computer then so and so.. it is that if arabic was as convenient to use in this day and age as English is, then we would use arabic....the same thing with khwarezmian. today, all languages are borrowing from english whatever new terms are made for new inventions..but when arabic was lingua franca, more than that was borrowed.

im not arguing against the arabic script...i think nastaliq is a distinct enough version for writing dari.


so you are telling me that under the kushan empire and greco-bactrian kingdom and in the villages, no creativity existed?

[ScimitarXEdge]

The abzu (Cuniform: �� ��, ZU.AB; Sumerian: abzu; Akkadian: apsû) also called engur, (Cuniform:��, LAGAB×HAL; Sumerian: engur; Akkadian: engurru) literally, ab='ocean' zu='to know'[1] or 'deep' was the name for fresh water from underground aquifers that was given a religious quality in Sumerian and Akkadian mythology. Lakes, springs, rivers, wells, and other sources of fresh water were thought to draw their water from the abzu.

Nope I'm not kidding.

[ScimitarXEdge]

so you are telling me that under the kushan empire and greco-bactrian kingdom and in the villages, no creativity existed?

I don't even understand what this has to do with anything?

[Leonine]

with arabic, not just new loanwords were borrowed into persian and other languages..but these loanwords required the learning of new semitic arabic phonemes such as qaf, ayn, possibly ghayn... persian words with p were changed to f and b...gaf to k..etc..what right did arabic have for this to happen?


to deny this is folly.

[Leonine]

I don't even understand what this has to do with anything?

it is a reference to your saying pre-islamic oral poetry never existed in the region....dont u think the kings of the sassanid, parthian and kushan empires fancied music and poetry?

[ScimitarXEdge]

Iranian farsi doesn't use qaaf.

and most strictly persian words beginning withy P are still beginning with P.

[Shayesta]

^ You mean they don't use words starting with the 'Q' a.k.a. 'Qaaf'?

[ScimitarXEdge]

generally , no for example Qur'an is GHoran in Iranian Farsi.