Define a Pakhtana...

[emkhan]

pakhto means ghairat, haya, straighforwardness, simplicity, hospitality, good manners, patience, obedience, service, love, kindness, softness by heart, beauty of soul compromise, respect and also Islam

[Mayana]

As I said, there are few who would disagree with your first post, however, as I see it, this thread is aimed at defining the differences in behavioural aspects of what it means to be a Pakhtana, by lineage that is (though this isn't the point of concern), and what characteristics, relative to the traditional ethnic definitions, lie out of this fold. Lineage doesn't stand on its own, and like you would put it, comes with it measurable characteristics that may or may not apply to other ethnic groups and so, while you say ethinicity doesn't depend on behaviour, behaviour does depend on ethnicity. Sure, the behavioural aspects listed in this thread can be applied to any group of people, and for those who have listed them, doesn't necessarily accentuate a boastful stance. But, from what I see it, most posts reflect existing behavioural aspects of someone the posters know, or something they hope to witness in our women. And mind you, though it may seem as such, this is not the standard. I guess the difference in opinion resulted from the latter.

Very true!

Again fight got started. This is what i don't like about these anti pashtuns.

Wait, who is fighting and who is anti-Pashtun?

[IamDZJ]

define what a pakhtana is not what one should be.

[Azad Khel]

pakhto means ghairat, haya, straighforwardness, simplicity, hospitality, good manners, patience, obedience, service, love, kindness, softness by heart, beauty of soul compromise, respect and also Islam

Yes, yes, yes,...................This is the definition of POUKHTO for those who know PUKHTO is not just a language this is in fact a whole code of conduct.

[*Mahzala*]

define what a pakhtana is not what one should be.

To aspire something eventually leads to its existence or creation.

[Gulbabo]

obedience? obedient to who? to her father... when she is being forced to marry someone to settle his badla??

patience? patience to what? domestic abuse? torture?

caring? caring to who? to a torturing husband?

it isn't very easy to throw these words around?

someone standing up for her right infront of her husband, father, brother would be disobedient?

someone who decides to break away from daily torture and domestic abuse would be labelled as less patient and enduring?

i would like to know your views more about these two words 'obedient' and 'patient'

[Azad Khel]

[QUOTE=Mayana;371989]Born to a Pashtun father.

Pashtuns are an ethnic group, not a behavioral species in which someone can sit there and make little lists with bullet points,

This is a misconception on your side. A person living in a pukhton society never consider pukhto only a language. Our society of pukhtoon say:

ta dair bi pukhto yi...........never heard of any Punjabi chi dair bi punjabai yi.............never heard of Farsiwan chi bi farsai yi and never heard from an Englishman/American chi bi Angrezai yi..............

Maat ta zama pukhto odregi.........This is a behaviour my dear not an ethnic thing.

Pukhtana/Pukhtaney dasi kaar na kai ....................again a behaviour is here.

chi pukhtaney pukhtaney yi nu bia dasi bi pukhto karuna na kai............These are the words we listen all the time in a pukhtoon society.
We see a great difference between the Pukhtoon born and grown up in Karachi, Lahor ect. and the Pukhtoon born and grown up in the pukhtoon land. The people born or grown up in western countries don't find such society and practical training as is found in our areas of pukhtoon, therefore, we can not expect from them such definition of Pukhto.


They might very well be non-Muslim, disobedient, disrespectful and be going against the all Pashtun values. However, despite popular belief, they do not have a Pashtun card you can revoke once they have x number of Pashtun felonies in your book lol

We don't say that such people can not counted in the pukhtoon population. We only say that such people are not what the culture, tradition (which is surely pukhto) demand from them. I want to give you an example from the Holy Qur'an:


وَنَادَى نُوحٌ رَّبَّهُ فَقَالَ رَبِّ إِنَّ ابُنِى مِنْ أَهْلِى وَإِنَّ وَعْدَكَ الْحَقُّ وَأَنتَ أَحْكَمُ الْحَـكِمِينَ - قَالَ ينُوحُ إِنَّهُ لَيْسَ مِنْ أَهْلِكَ إِنَّهُ عَمَلٌ غَيْرُ صَـلِحٍ فَلاَ تَسْأَلْنِـى مَا لَيْسَ لَكَ بِهِ عِلْمٌ إِنِّى أَعِظُكَ أَن تَكُونَ مِنَ الْجَـهِلِينَ - قَالَ رَبِّ إِنِّى أَعُوذُ بِكَ أَنْ أَسْأَلَكَ مَا لَيْسَ لِى بِهِ عِلْمٌ وَإِلاَّ تَغْفِرْ لِى وَتَرْحَمْنِى أَكُن مِّنَ الْخَـسِرِينَ


(45. And Nuh called upon his Lord and said, "O my Lord! Verily, my son is of my family! And certainly, Your promise is true, and You are the Most Just of the judges.'') (46. He said: "O Nuh! Surely, he is not of your family; verily, his work is unrighteous, so ask not of Me that of which you have no knowledge! I admonish you, lest you should be one of the ignorant.'') (47. Nuh said: "O my Lord! I seek refuge with You from asking You that of which I have no knowledge. And unless You forgive me and have mercy on me, I would indeed be one of the losers.'')



The above is a qoute from Surah "HUD". Allah says to Hazrat Nuh (a.s.) that he is not from your family although he was his(Nuh's) son.

[*Mahzala*]

obedience? obedient to who? to her father... when she is being forced to marry someone to settle his badla??

patience? patience to what? domestic abuse? torture?

caring? caring to who? to a torturing husband?

it isn't very easy to throw these words around?

someone standing up for her right infront of her husband, father, brother would be disobedient?

someone who decides to break away from daily torture and domestic abuse would be labelled as less patient and enduring?

i would like to know your views more about these two words 'obedient' and 'patient'

I am not sure what we're arguing, and this is not limited to this thread. We live our lives in the west, with little, yes little, sense of what happens in Pashtun households in our homelands, yet, we argue for or against it. I have trouble digesting that. A label, in particular the wording we have listed, isn't just thrown around, or generalised. In your case, each case has to be dealt with individually, and that too, according to the extent of its harm. I am not ignorant of what you make mention of, of, at times, our strict adherence to cultural flaws which lead to such abuse and torture. But before I proceed, your definition and mine of torture may be different, so I will kindly ask you to elaborate on that one for me.

[IamDZJ]

To aspire something eventually leads to its existence or creation.

i don't remember the exact proverb but there is a famous one in urdu about the storm being more admirable when viewed from the shore rather than experienced inside the sea...

[Gulbabo]

I am not sure what we're arguing, and this is not limited to this thread. We live our lives in the west, with little, yes little, sense of what happens in Pashtun households in our homelands, yet, we argue for or against it. I have trouble digesting that. A label, in particular the wording we have listed, isn't just thrown around, or generalised. In your case, each case has to be dealt with individually, and that too, according to the extent of its harm. I am not ignorant of what you make mention of, of, at times, our strict adherence to cultural flaws which lead to such abuse and torture. But before I proceed, your definition and mine of torture may be different, so I will kindly ask you to elaborate on that one for me.

the bolded part may be true in your case but not in mine. i do live in West but i have lived more than half my life in east and i have been raised amongst pashtoon. I have seen great respect amongst pashtoon married couple in cities, while in villages (where we claim pashtoonwali is truely practiced) i have seen women only opressed, used, and abused... women are treated as a third class citizens... I believe men and women have the same rights and should be treated equally in a society, and anything lesser than that is torture... more or less.

as for "each case dealth with it differntly" this doesn't apply back home... for the ones that live in a strict pashtoon society, any woman who raises her voice (no matter how justified) is a disgrace to family's honor and dignity... any daughter, any sister, any wife who goes against the will of her father, brother or husband, regardless of how right she is, throws her out of the circle drawn around her by them... and she deserves the worst punishment... even death.

so when we say a true pashtana is patience and obedient... i wonder if it is our 'Western' definition of patience and obedient, or the eastern. these terms are very relative anyways. people can have different definitions and limits for them.

[*Mahzala*]

the bolded part may be true in your case but not in mine.

Before we begin the discussion, let me remind you to not jump the gun. Like you told emkhan, we're not at reach to anyone personally yet. As I said in my earlier post, that comment of mine wasn't a target at yours, it may be applied to other threads too. Neither am I ignorant of cases where girls are deprived of education, married off without their will, or silenced behind closed doors, nor am I taking my own lifestyle for granted. Moving on.

i do live in West but i have lived more than half my life in east and i have been raised amongst pashtoon. I have seen great respect amongst pashtoon married couple in cities, while in villages (where we claim pashtoonwali is truely practiced) i have seen women only opressed, used, and abused... women are treated as a third class citizens... I believe men and women have the same rights and should be treated equally in a society, and anything lesser than that is torture... more or less.

That is a rather tight definition of torture and just as I assumed, the way you and I define it is world's apart. Even though I haven't, like you, spent half my life in my homeland, I am able to draw the conclusion that your definition of torture is way wide of the mark. And so, in that case, I won't even ask you to define abuse and oppression for me. Clearly, these differences do call for what I said before, because the way you would deal with a situation, given your definition, would be very different to my approach or anyone else for that matter.

You're telling me that if a woman isn't given the opportunity to engage in the very same activities as men do back home, which are very different to the way things are done in the west, she is experiencing oppression, torture and abuse? Dudette, all three words have very negative connotations and I am sure there are many who are quite content with their lives, yet your definition throws them under this light. I am not, as it may seem, entertaining any of the negative treatment our people experience, but I am not sure what you're arguing - equality of rights? A reassessment of our ethical and cultural, or maybe even religious, codes? Or both of the latter with a faint brush of feminism?

as for "each case dealth with it differntly" this doesn't apply back home... for the ones that live in a strict pashtoon society, any woman who raises her voice (no matter how justified) is a disgrace to family's honor and dignity... any daughter, any sister, any wife who goes against the will of her father, brother or husband, regardless of how right she is, throws her out of the circle drawn around her by them... and she deserves the worst punishment... even death.

Why doesn't it apply back home? If anything, it does. It's a simple statement: Each case has to be dealt with differently, in accordance to the extent of its harm. A Pakhtana's values may depend on the treatment she receives, but are not defined by or against it. Again, I am not sure why you bring this up.

so when we say a true pashtana is patience and obedient... i wonder if it is our 'Western' definition of patience and obedient, or the eastern. these terms are very relative anyways. people can have different definitions and limits for them.

Exactly, just as you did with the words you defined above. Each definition is derived from a different case and so dealing with that case takes into consideration different appropriate measures. Either way, being patient is an innate quality a woman has and exercising it will vary based on the situation, and to uphold it (or other qualities), rationally weighing the drawbacks surrounding her, is patience in its true sense. I'll refrain from defining, as that takes into account context and a lot of baggage that may only be overlooked or judged.

[Nokia_Apridy]

Kho gorey paam kawa chi ma pa tigu o na waley zka chi za da jenaku/khazu dair izzat kaum

hhhhaha pa EM khan KHu ghat ghat Guzaruna wakral...

NAYA ,MOOR ,KHOOR ,LOOR ,KHAZA ,WRANDAR ,KHAKAHAY,KHOR,

Chay Sanga TAkay (WORD) wi da KHazay....

Deo ta Pura Haq Warkwalay shey....Awo da dey Khpal Haq Upjana da

DEFINE PUKHTANA ...........da Zma pa Khyal

[Gulbabo]

Before we begin the discussion, let me remind you to not jump the gun. Like you told emkhan, we're not at reach to anyone personally yet. As I said in my earlier post, that comment of mine wasn't a target at yours, it may be applied to other threads too. Neither am I ignorant of cases where girls are deprived of education, married off without their will, or silenced behind closed doors, nor am I taking my own lifestyle for granted. Moving on.

Ok... so it makes it easier to discuss... since you are aware of such cases, which by the way, happens in majority. and I don't know you, personally to able to personally attack you, or draw conclusions...

That is a rather tight definition of torture and just as I assumed, the way you and I define it is world's apart. Even though I haven't, like you, spent half my life in my homeland, I am able to draw the conclusion that your definition of torture is way wide of the mark. And so, in that case, I won't even ask you to define abuse and oppression for me. Clearly, these differences do call for what I said before, because the way you would deal with a situation, given your definition, would be very different to my approach or anyone else for that matter.

What do you define torture to be, opression and abuse to be? you are saying my definition is very wide. but if you think a little deeper, not treating women equally to men, is the base of all torture and abuse. if someone thinks lesser of you, you can't expect them to behave with you, or to respect your rights, as he would if was dealing with someone who he thought as equal to himself. my definition is not wider, its universal. unless a man and a woman attain the same position in a society, and in front of law, torture and abuse are bound to happen.

You're telling me that if a woman isn't given the opportunity to engage in the very same activities as men do back home, which are very different to the way things are done in the west, she is experiencing oppression, torture and abuse? Dudette, all three words have very negative connotations and I am sure there are many who are quite content with their lives, yet your definition throws them under this light. I am not, as it may seem, entertaining any of the negative treatment our people experience, but I am not sure what you're arguing - equality of rights? A reassessment of our ethical and cultural, or maybe even religious, codes? Or both of the latter with a faint brush of feminism?

LOL haha. is that what all you could understand from my post? what do you mean by 'very same activity'... I don't mean that women should be allowed to marry four times, or allowed to step out of any other religious boundaries set for her by Islamic jurisdiction... the sad part is that they are denied many things allowed to them by the very religion, every pashtoon claims to practice, how Ironic.
I understand there are certain limitations to what a woman is allowed to do, the same applies to men as well. by equal treatment i mean, giving her equal status in the society, allowing her to grow personally, academically, professionally, and mentally. Providing positive atmosphere to her within the house and outside.

Of course many wome back home wouldn't agree with my definition, most of them are raised to believe their way of life is their fate, it can't change, that is what they deserve and that is what they should die with. women get battered and abused all around the world, from every background, and most of them lack the ability to realize that they are being battered. most women (regardless of their location) are so emotionally attached to their abuser, or psychologically effected by the torture that they can't even get out of it, (even some career women, financially capable of doing so). women are extremely emotional, and easily fooled as well (i am sorry if this offends anyone).

i am not sure how much u are aware of pashtoon culture, but according to pashtoons, any woman in any household that decide to work or go to school shows how beghairat and benamoos the men in that family are. a man of honor and namoos are those men who are able to keep their women in a confinment of their home, else he is beghairat... and pashtoon men would take absolutely every measure not to be labelled as beghairat... i am sure u know this.

I am also not sure how much you know about human psychology, but there have been numerous researches and studies conducted on how human behaviour changes when he is in power... and dealing with someone less powerfull (let me if u need a few links to those studies)... and pashtoon men are obviously not angels, as human as others, when they are given power over pashtoon women in a society, and also the local mullah interprets Islam to please their ears and ligitimize their actions, they are more bound to abuse that power (thats just human nature)

and feminism? hahaha.. that word makes me laugh. I am not feminist, but I believe in something that Islam teaches, 'wish for others what u wish for urself'. i think its every human's responsibility to rise against abuse and injstice...men and women. alhamdulilah i have a lived a very healthy life, raised by a very strong mother, nd have not faced abuse or torture from any man in my family (so far)... and that is what i wish for other pashtoon women too. and for that i speak with people about it, hope others will take some measure to educate our men too. thas the least i can do.

Why doesn't it apply back home? If anything, it does. It's a simple statement: Each case has to be dealt with differently, in accordance to the extent of its harm. A Pakhtana's values may depend on the treatment she receives, but are not defined by or against it. Again, I am not sure why you bring this up.

I bring this up because you are not there to judge those cases one by one. their cases are only judged by their own father, husband, or brother... and very emotional ones. You and I think each case needs to be dealth with individually, people back home dont! its either black or white. u are either a model woman or a bad one. "cry me a river if u are being abused by ur husband, that is ur husbands house and u cant leave that house, its against our ghairat".. this is wht pashtoon women face. I have seen this with my own eyes. a woman walks into her father's house hoping he will save her from her abusive husband, who has beat the crap out of her and blood is gushing through her nose and mouth, and all she hears is "sorry, u have to go back, i will talk to him about it and hopefully he won't do this again, but u can't stay here, what will the people say"... "hopefully"?????...

[Gulbabo]

NAYA ,MOOR ,KHOOR ,LOOR ,KHAZA ,WRANDAR ,KHAKAHAY,KHOR,

Chay Sanga TAkay (WORD) wi da KHazay....

Deo ta Pura Haq Warkwalay shey....Awo da dey Khpal Haq Upjana da

DEFINE PUKHTANA ...........da Zma pa Khyal

wrora.. walaka pa po sawai yam... leg nor ham koshish woka che saaf saaf wolikai... ka wogai ye warsa dodai wokhora... tikai walai khorai pa khabaro lolll...tol saaf saaf wolika.

[Nokia_Apridy]

eshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Bas hem daga khu Definition da

PUKHTANA .............mara Simple

KAKAR GIRL simple Definition da sta Topic dara Perfect choice da...

So da haga har Post wagora...