Split Discussion: Should Pashto Be Standardised with a Roman Script?

[tor_khan]

what a ridiculous script...so ridiculuous as to almot un-processible by machines (computers)...Even then, all the credit goes to Jews and non-Arab sematic people who invented writing and probably also this script...

It would be better for Pashtuns to abandon this unweildy script and adopt Roman script or alternatively revive the old khroshati script of their ancestors ...

Too many variations in the spoke language for Pashtoons across Pakistan-Afghanistan to unify around Roman script. To me that would be as ridiculous as "writing" Pashto in Urdu script, because whereas, it might be phonetically plausible for some, it totally excludes others. Peshawaris who do this cause untold damage to the language.

Your anti-Arab hang ups Toromana do NOTHING for the advancement of Pashto. Think about it. What you call Roman script is itself a modified script based on Latin which varying phonemic pronunciations between European Languages. It isn't perfect because contemporary English (as an example) has a 20% irregular spelling frequency. You must simply learn the spelling for words like knight in English and oiseau in French looks nothing like "wazo" [how it is said]. How would this or even a variation of this apply evenly to Pashto?

You want to take "modern" example of Roman script applied to an ancient language? I'll give you one - Somali. Enough said. Why? Because (a) Somalis were a community in crisis (still are) had no written tradition and (b) do you wish to take inspiration from this? I say it is more important to develop Pashto by sticking to the the modified alphabet we have rather than trying to find "foreign" solutions that may be motivated by traces of inferiority complex attached to them.

I went to church schools in the UK (fortunately or unfortunately, take it as you will) where I couldn't escape Latin (though always written in contemporary Roman script).



You can see some evolution between Latin and modern Roman script and you can see some contemporary letters totally absent e.g. W (said double U [dubal you] in English; doublé V [doobla vay] in French). Even now Grade 4 students in British schools might be able to tell you this. Imagine as you say, reviving the old script as you say and applying this now.

Point is Pashto is Pashto; Arabic is Arabic. Sure there are borrowed letters from Arabic, but unless an Arab knows Pashto - he can't read this:

د پښتو ژبی پرمختګ د پاره بیاد دی چي د پښتو لیک لوست مونږ پخپله اوکو

Actually there are many Pashtoons who talk, but even they can't read the above. Can we consider ourselves truly literate if we don't read our heritage language? Maybe that's a discussion for another thread.

Roman Script wouldn't work uniformly as the academic standard for Pashto. It exists here, on these pages - in chat/quick message form, that too with many inconsistencies and no official endorsement. When people write like this: Paxto zaba on this forum, to a point I understand, but in all honesty, it is very far from the written standard of the language that many aspire to. If we wish for Pashto to have status, then we should give weight to this and we should avoid making it a poor man's attempts at writing a very important language by squeezing it into a script that doesn't support it.

[faye]

to my artists eye, the arabic and pashto writing looks beautiful.

[torkham]

No!

[graveyardofempires]

yeah the seculerist filth wished it so lets give it space for discussion.

it seems that anti itellect is busy at work on this forum lately

[Nokia_Apridy]

KAsh chay Mashran wa

Ijaz lala Britoon lala wAjid lala Khurhsid lala........

khu dalta wos ba Zra walay Khuga wu Pukhtu da para chay...

pa PF ka da hagu kadar wanshu

[KingKhan]

Hell no! These "secularist" are such good slaves to their masters that they want to abandon their script for theirs.

People here should also stop writing in Transliterated, if they want to write in Pashto, use the beautiful script.

[IamDZJ]

no because it will never work. that is like introducing a new language to people all over again except it would be even more frustrating because either no one will follow the new script or everyone will end up being confused. then every one will lose interest in the language and we will lose whatever followers we have already.

[Dervaish]

Toramana may be thinking sincerely but it is not acceptable to convert Pashto Script into Roman Script. If it looks ridiculous to her/him, she/he should learn it and master it then she/he will appreciate that it has very artistic look.
How it looks to foreigners, I would like to mention the impression of a Chinese colleague, a university professor. ٰLong ago I received a letter from my brother written in Pashto. He showed interest to see it. When I showed it to him, his impression was "Oh, it looks like beautifully drawn flowers".
It does not fit the computer. Well learn it to write on computer, it is as easy as writing English. No doubt needs more improvement.
رومن سکرپټ کښ بدلول داسے دی لکه چه پښتنے زنانه ته وائےچه د قميض پرتوګ په څائے سکرټ يا بکني واغونده. لکه چه د هر تهذيب خپل لباس وي او ښکلے ښکاري، دا شانے پښتو په خپل ډول ليکل ښکلے ښکاري. جاپاني، چيني او بلا نورے ژبے په رومن سکرپټ کښ هعه خلق نه ليکي. کمپيوټر ئے په خپله ژبه راړولے دے. کوشش پکار دے چه مونږ پښتو ليکل زده کړو او د پريخودو په څائے ورله نوره ترقی ورکړو څنګه چه پښتو ژبه خوږه ده داسے ئے خط ډير ښکلے دے

[khushal]

Toramana has a huge statue of Ataturk in his garden.

[Talal]

You would be handing the religious garrison a huge edge to your discredit, its about symbolism. Remember back in the days even wearing jeans branded you a commie

What possible uses could pashto have for a roman script ? is it to distinguish itself from other regional languages ? if so how would that be to the benefit of pashto

You have a better chance of teaching pashto to a non-pashto speaker in Pakistan/Afghanistan simply because of the script, you take that away the numbers will dwindle really fast

[ScimitarXEdge]

I don't think the Proposition is sincere at alll

firstly they advocate Roman Script; the script of English to bbe imposed on Pashto. Secondly they're Mythifying Kharoshti as some sort of Native Pashto script.

Kharosthi is modified Aramaic, much like current Pashto is modified Nakhsh (Arabic) script. We have many records of Tocharian, Prakrit, Khotan languages written in Kharosthi, but we don't have a single record of Pashto written in such a script. Doesn't anyone find that strange? If this was the original ancestral script of Pashto, surely we'd have numerous records, as they do for so many other regional languages.

One has to wonder; how can we return to a script that Pashto was never evidently written in? The answer is we don't. This is really a con to promote Roman Script. a wholly subserviently imperial agenda.

[graveyardofempires]

why not chinese script

[Toramana]

I say it is more important to develop Pashto by sticking to the the modified alphabet we have rather than trying to find "foreign" solutions that may be motivated by traces of inferiority complex attached to them.

First off, I am not a diaspora-born Muslim or a Desi or a Pashtun to have faced or felt any kind of real or perceived racist discrimination or inferiority complex vis-a'-vis the "white" kid....So, I don't have those hangovers----Even if I had experienced such kind of thing, I would've gone for what is rational, and useful in the long as well as the short run instead of trying to aswage my inferiority complexis by seeking refuge in the glory of a bygone age....

When it comes to technology and knowledge, nothing is foreign by the way...You go for what maximizes your gains (rationally speaking)...So is also true of representational systems (e. g. scrpits) ---In todays age, when languages (and other representational systems) are increasingly becoming machine processed, you need symbolic systems that are computationally more wieldy/manageable ... Now every body knows what an uphill task is even the visual rendering of a Beduinism based script let alone other more complex processing of the lanuage...And fortunately or unfortunately, information processing systems are bulit on methodolgies/techgniques (both in terms of hardware and software) geared towards processing with Roman/Latin symbolic systems...


So until Muslims or Pashtuns become creative enough to come up with their own systems, which is not possible in the next 1000 years, there is no way achieving the same level of information processing performace/efficiency with the archiac Beduine script as the Roman based systems let alone catching up with the rest of the world...


In my opinion, following benefit will accrue from a Roman/Latin based representational system...


- Computational efficiency/performance (more info processed internally and rendered visually) far higher than you can with the archiac Beduine script...

- Scientif/mathematical notational conventions and systems based on Greek, Roman, Latin, English symbols could be easily realizable in Pashto...With that, greater amount of knowledge could be transferred from other languages into Pashto...

-Larger population getting exposed to global notational/representational system and becoming conversant in it...

- The youth is increasingly using the Roman based script in their communication --- a trend the rising level of which can be seen even on this forum...So youth will become anchored to Pashto language again instead of using a foreign language...

- The natural language processing methodologies being developed can be taken greater benefit of with the Roman based script (as for as representation is concerned)...

- Beduinism based script is not used to the extent as the Roman based script is used today .. and the trend is on the rise with no sign to decline in the next few thousands years...

- some problems in the existing script could be resolved...


As for which Roman based symbols to use, I think any set of simple Roman symbols can be employed making sure that there is a one to one correspondence between symbols and phonemes...The same symbol can represent the variety of phonemic pecularities in different dialects of Pashto....

[Toramana]

All the solutions Muslims use today are "foreign" based because they cannot produce their own (due to the archaic value system and the tendency to de-evolve)...Even they cannot use a foreign based solution efficiently and usually abuse it (due to negativities rooted in culture and religious traditions)...

If it were not for Berner-Lie, Muslims would not have come up with HTML and WWW for probably few hundred years...

I consider it irrational to resist something with proven effectivesness on the ground that it originated in a foreign civilization and not your own (intellectually-moribund) civilization...

[tor_khan]

As for which Roman based symbols to use, I think any set of simple Roman symbols can be employed making sure that there is a one to one correspondence between symbols and phonemes...The same symbol can represent the variety of phonemic pecularities in different dialects of Pashto....

Examples.