Islam is just a religion like any other religion

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Not according to the Muslim political thinkers. They call for a Caliph. The parliament shura idea didn't come about until Jamaludeen Afghani (19th century).

If they only understood that the election of a Caliph is directly done with the help of Allah. That is why it failed after the Righteous Guided Caliphate.

Where do you think he got the idea of a Shurah parliament system? It is clearly noted in the Quran.

We're pretty close to knowing everything but not everything about everything. The more we find out, the more mysteries begin to unravel. Religions don't know anything except what they learn from scientists and not a single religion has provided anything scientific to man that only a deity could have known.

Islam does not need to get involved at every junction of the process. It gives the final answer.

How old do you think our universe is? And how many times do you think it has been calculated and then corrected and re-calculated by scientists?

[Badlun]

Momin

To tell you the truth I am dsapponted here. I requested you that here there wont be any conversatonal type of dscussons but long posts or articles. But you continued with your short questions and chit chat style.

What I requested was your presentation on the politics and Political system of Islam. There you can criticize democracy and present your own Islamic alternatve for democracy. I also requested that such general words as Shura etc is not alternative to a political system. Its just a simple moral injunction of Quran not a political system.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Momin

To tell you the truth I am dsapponted here. I requested you that here there wont be any conversatonal type of dscussons but long posts or articles. But you continued with your short questions and chit chat style.

What I requested was your presentation on the politics and Political system of Islam. There you can criticize democracy and present your own Islamic alternatve for democracy. I also requested that such general words as Shura etc is not alternative to a political system. Its just a simple moral injunction of Quran not a political system.

Dear brother, I know how you feel. But I don't believe in a set "Islamic" political system. It does not exist. That is why I told you that we should take this route, instead. You will see that what you have working today for some governments is nothing new. And what is not working has been warn against by the Quran. They have both been mentioned in the Quran.

The reason being is that Islam has not come to meddle in the political aspect of the lives of human beings, per se, it has sent concrete guidance on how a practical society functions. Period.

The approach that I suggested will work much better. The reason being is that a society came before religion, not the vice versa.

My Ph.D. thesis will be, Insha Allah, to correct political thought via the Quran.

[Badlun]

The words like
But I don't believe in a set "Islamic" political system. It does not exist.

means no political sytem exists in Islam.

The words
You will see that what you have working today for some governments is nothing new. And what is not working has been warn against by the Quran. They have both been mentioned in the Quran.

I want to know where these have been mentioned in Quran???

Words
The reason being is that Islam has not come to meddle in the political aspect of the lives of human beings, per se, it has sent concrete guidance on how a practical society functions. Period.

are self contradictory as if Islam does not meddle in the political aspects(What I believe) thenwhere from concrete guidance come for the functioning of practical society as politics is part of this practical society.

In the Words
The approach that I suggested will work much better. The reason being is that a society came before religion, not the vice versa.

about which approach you are talking and if society comes before the religion then society is more important than the religion and thus politics being part of a society is beyond Islam being a religion.

Should I wait for your My Ph.D. thesis and mean while I confirm that in the light of your above quoted words there is no political system in Islam and I continue with my next question that what Economic system Islam presents and what are the Quranic details of economy.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

The words like
But I don't believe in a set "Islamic" political system. It does not exist.

means no political sytem exists in Islam.

Correct. That is why it is said to follow those in authority and give government to those who deserve it.

The words
You will see that what you have working today for some governments is nothing new. And what is not working has been warn against by the Quran. They have both been mentioned in the Quran.

I want to know where these have been mentioned in Quran???

Through discussion they will come out slowly.

Words
The reason being is that Islam has not come to meddle in the political aspect of the lives of human beings, per se, it has sent concrete guidance on how a practical society functions. Period.

are self contradictory as if Islam does not meddle in the political aspects(What I believe) thenwhere from concrete guidance come for the functioning of practical society as politics is part of this practical society.

Don't forget, that the Jews of Medina invited the Prophet (saw) to mediate. It was then that a proper system was established known as the Islamic State, which was different than the ummah. The society of Yathrib needed help and Hadhrat Muhammad (saw) knew how to help them. This is how Allah establishes a system. Not by force but by need.

In the Words
The approach that I suggested will work much better. The reason being is that a society came before religion, not the vice versa.

about which approach you are talking and if society comes before the religion then society is more important than the religion and thus politics being part of a society is beyond Islam being a religion.

That is why you have: There is no compulsion in religion.

Should I wait for your My Ph.D. thesis and mean while I confirm that in the light of your above quoted words there is no political system in Islam and I continue with my next question that what Economic system Islam presents and what are the Quranic details of economy.

Absolutely not, don't forget that politics is what holds everything together.

So, let us continue. I say we should discuss topics as they come, because then our discussion will take a deeper analysis of the important topics. Like, for example, separation of church and state.

[Levanaye Zalmaye]

If they only understood that the election of a Caliph is directly done with the help of Allah. That is why it failed after the Righteous Guided Caliphate.

Where do you think he got the idea of a Shurah parliament system? It is clearly noted in the Quran.

I'm curious to know how one will elect a caliph today with the help of Allah.

The Shura based on the modern European parliamentary system comes from a very liberal interpretation of scripture. Most Muslims will tell you that the Shura is comprised primarily of scholars. Others will tell you that the Shura is an advisory body only with no real legislative power (speaking of which, legislature would be pretty much a rubber-stamp body in a system that had the rules of all of mankind until the end of eternity revealed in a 7th century text).

You also mentioned in another post that a proper Islamic political system does not exist. Dearest brother and heart-beat of my heart, what about the political and administrative setup of the Khulifaerashideen and the political works of Al-Farabi, Al-Mawardi, Nizamulmulk Tusi, the deviant Ghazali, ibn Khuldun and Sayyid Qutb (modern Salafis love this guy's book though for normal people, it comes under the horror genre)?

Islam does not need to get involved at every junction of the process. It gives the final answer.

How old do you think our universe is? And how many times do you think it has been calculated and then corrected and re-calculated by scientists?

That's the difference between science and religion.

Religion: This is how it is, don't question it, accept it or die.
Science: If you have evidence, your theory will be accepted by everyone regardless of your caste, religion, creed, sexual orientation, body mass index, etc.

That is why we see that age old incorrect beliefs exist within religious communities. Only people like you who interpret scripture liberally (and not literally) can enter the modern world. You are a minority, unfortunately.

[Badlun]

I ll request once again Momin that we shall wait till the time when you will be able to write an article on the Politics and Political sytem of Islam. Otherwise these discussions will carry us no where. I firmly believe that islam being only a religion has nothing to do with politics and does not have any political system otherwise we would have seen it in the last 1400 years somewhere in a complete shape.

The Madina state established by the prophet and the system evolved by the Muslim caliphs was not a religious one but based on local arab traditions, values and practices with a religious touch because after all they were practicing Muslims too in the religious sense.

We should keep Islam limited to its religious role of guiding us in beliefs, worship and morality and may follow modern political system and practices like democracy. Actually in practice all non Arab Muslim states have democracy in one or another form and the Arabs have monorchies and dictatorships but no where any Islamic political system. We should improve the democratic systems in Non Arab Muslim states and introduce democracy in Arab Muslim states.

Now I request Momin or any member to give us the Economic system if Islam has any one.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

^I will leave that discussion for now, as it is not a matter of a few posts.

However, Osho Jana,

I have a question to ask you (this stemmed from another thread in which you referred to the Quran to conclude upon an issue): why don't you consider Islam superior to any other religion when the Quran clearly states this?

[Badlun]

^I will leave that discussion for now, as it is not a matter of a few posts.

However, Osho Jana,

I have a question to ask you (this stemmed from another thread in which you referred to the Quran to conclude upon an issue): why don't you consider Islam superior to any other religion when the Quran clearly states this?

I had never said that all the religions are equal. How Islam believing in monotheism and the finality of the prophethood of Muhammad, and Hinduism, and Christianity and Judaism, and Shintoism and Confuciasm, and Jainism etc can be equal???? All are different with different beliefs, modes of worship.

Some one might have misunderstood me . What I all the time say is that Islam is a religion like other religions but is not a complete system. Is equal to other religions in its being a religion but is not a political system etc.

And yes being a religion it is complete as it is said in Quran. There is no need of any further reformation or Messiah to complete its beliefs, morality and worship.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

I had never said that all the religions are equal.

Thank you for clarifying. This is what I am some other members have been trying to say all along.

How Islam believing in monotheism and the finality of the prophethood of Muhammad, and Hinduism, and Christianity and Judaism, and Shintoism and Confuciasm, and Jainism etc can be equal????

This was the crux of our argument and it seemed that you overlooked this basic fact to declare all religions equal. Thank you for clarifying your stance by stating this crucial point.

All are different with different beliefs, modes of worship.

Precisely.

Some one might have misunderstood me . What I all the time say is that Islam is a religion like other religions but is not a complete system. Is equal to other religions in its being a religion but is not a political system etc.

Now it is more clear what you meant by "equal." But this we shall talk about, Insha Allah.

And yes being a religion it is complete as it is said in Quran. There is no need of any further reformation or Messiah to complete its beliefs, morality and worship.

This is a fundamental aspect of the Quran which no other book has declared.


Dera manana osho jana for clarifying your stance. Just like you we all belief that Islam has no equal. It is a complete religion that represents that most complete understanding of God. To say that Islam and other religions are equal in merit is like saying that the understanding of God in all religions is the same, which it is not. Hence, it would be a tragic mistake to say that they are all equal.

Thank you, osho.

[Badlun]

Now if no one can prove that Islam has its own political, economic , cultural, social, philosophical ,scientific and other systems then we conclude this discussion here and may take islam as a religion only and may seek guidance to all these non religious aspects from other sources no doubt with the basic moral injunctions of Islam.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

As I said earlier dear brother: there is no such thing that you are looking for. It would have made the Quran into a book of infinite volumes. However, Quran has made it clear what is beneficial for man what is not, which what man needs in order to become properly acquainted with his Creator. No other religious scripture has this.

That said, human beings have all sorts of thoughts that go through their mind on a daily basis, what is to say which is right and which is wrong? Is rape okay? Is hating your family okay? Is cheating the government okay? I given to charity okay? Where did we come from? Why do men have a high sexual appetite, in general. Should a woman cover her "gems?" How should a government control the population? So on and so forth? If Allah was to leave man to venture out for himself based on trial and error then he would be at lost with respect to the spiritual world and the material world. The real means to achieving his purpose would never come to materialize.

Hence, when the moral aspect of man is taken care of, he is then able to establish a proper "political, economical, cultural, social, philosophical, scientific, and other systems."

Dearest and lovely brother,

1. What works in politics tell me? Whatever you say cannot go against the Quran, as a Muslim. Therefore, we base our yard-stick as per the standards of the Quran so as to not contradict it. Correct? Now in order to establish a proper government we have to first establish the basic form of a government, correct? Now what is the basic form of a government? Is not the family, the basic form of government?
2. Economically, how can we go against the Quran? Why do you think the economical collapse almost destroyed the world a few year ago? Was it or was it not due to interest? What does Quran say about this?
3. Culturally Islam has also set the standard. For example, it has taught men and women how to dress. It has given guidelines on how to conduct yourself with other members of society. How to eat. How to sleep. How to have conjugal relationship with your wife. How to take care the needy of society, so on and so forth.
4. Socially, Islam has set the highest standard: to respect all religions. To not mock another's god. To respect the authority. To not create social disorder by means of riots, demonstrations, and to always submit to those who are in charge; otherwise, if one cannot, then one has to migrate from the land.
5. Philosophically, Islam is the reason why you have a high standard for philosophy today. It destroyed all forms of logical fallacies, which is the root cause of philosophical pondering. Islam has set the standard: if you think you are right, then bring forth your argument. No other religion has this set out explicitly. It has done this by challenging people to challenge the Quran. NO OTHER RELIGION HAS DONE THIS.
6. Scientifically, Islam has given all the tools necessary by setting out the beginning of time, how old the universe is, biological start of life, the process by which life decays and vanishes, etc. Islam is not in the business to give out all the answers. That is why Allah has taught man a great prayer: to ask Allah to increase him in knowledge. What does this mean? There is more than what meets the eye. As per the Quran itself, its verses are in parables, metaphors and allegories. Therefore, in order to conclude what those mean one has to do scientific experiments. And is this not consistent with modern science? Scientists first have to make a hypothesis before one can venture out. Otherwise, how will they know what they are looking for? Also, a lot of what we know today has come by natural helping us out. How? We are not all born healthy, for example. Since we are not, those that don't meet the "normal" standard are helped out to meet that standard. And in order to do so, we have to conduct experiments to see what is normal in order to help that person.

In the above I have given a short description of why your idea is wrong. Islam only gives the answer, it does not provide the process. That is left in our hands. Otherwise, life would be really boring on earth, there would be no societal progress and in turn man would never need to seek the help of Allah in order to befriend Him. Necessity is the mother of invention!

[Badlun]

Thanx a lot for this very useful post. We are saying the same thing but in different words. Islam has given full details of Beliefs, modes of worship and morality and has left the other fields to human beings so that they can use their own reason and their own faculties to explore, evolve , construct and establish the political, cultural, economic, scientific and other aspects of life.

This is the beauty of Islam that it has given few very basic moral principles like consultation justice, and honesty for politics, no usury in economy, decency in culture, curiosity and observation in science, the use of reason in Philosophy and has given a well defined spiritual system too based on its beliefs , modes of worship and ethics.

For the religious part as beleifs, worship and morality we need guidance from religious scholars like Mullas and taliban etc but for non religious spheres we may follow the developed world. In culture we have our own culture Pashtunwali and Arab cuklture is for Arabs not for all Muslims or Pashtuns.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

If any Muslim here claims Religions are equal or Islam is Equal to any Religion, step up to the plate.

Word.

I don't want to hear semantics. I want physical proof that illustrates how all the religions are equal despite being different. To claim it is is one thing but to prove it is something totally different.

That is not much to ask for.

It would be wise to just answer the question for what it's worth and not bring personal hatred in this.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Thanx a lot for this very useful post. We are saying the same thing but in different words. Islam has given full details of Beliefs, modes of worship and morality and has left the other fields to human beings so that they can use their own reason and their own faculties to explore, evolve , construct and establish the political, cultural, economic, scientific and other aspects of life.

I agree

This is the beauty of Islam that it has given few very basic moral principles like consultation justice, and honesty for politics, no usury in economy, decency in culture, curiosity and observation in science, the use of reason in Philosophy and has given a well defined spiritual system too based on its beliefs , modes of worship and ethics.

I agree

For the religious part as beleifs, worship and morality we need guidance from religious scholars like Mullas and taliban etc but for non religious spheres we may follow the developed world. In culture we have our own culture Pashtunwali and Arab cuklture is for Arabs not for all Muslims or Pashtuns.

If Pashtunwali has aspects that contradict the Quran, we must leave those aspects of Pashtunwali.

Oil and water can't mix.