Pashtun woman, a challenge to the conscience of the Humanity and human rights groups.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

look who got his voice back. the unknown quantity. where were you when actual matters were being discussed? i don't want to talk about either one of them. at this point of time, both of them disgust me.
i can't help focusing on others too much. if i didn't do that i would end up posting 522 threads on rapes and soldiers crying in battlefields. shooting myself in the head is better than doing ****ty things like that to me. and what you need is a fist deforming your face. get lost now.
from now on, whenever you talk to or about me, i am simply going to ignore you. don't think that i don't have a reply for whatever it is that you say. simply consider yourself not worth of my time.

I take it that the two of you have some history that the rest of us are not privy to? I would assume it is not a e-romance gone awry.

[unknownprince]

I take it that the two of you have some history that the rest of us are not privy to? I would assume it is not a e-romance gone awry.

lol

its just that whenever I post a thread, dzj has the need to disparage me in any way she deems fit. If i post about american soldiers crying, she tells me I should feel sympathy for them, and then she analyzes why I post threads up (i do it for others to read and learn- the same reason why anyone posts a thread).

I mean as far as I am concerned as far as people address me in a foul way, I never engage with them in any political thought anyways.

anyways back to the topic

[unknownprince]

look who got his voice back. the unknown quantity. where were you when actual matters were being discussed? i don't want to talk about either one of them. at this point of time, both of them disgust me.
i can't help focusing on others too much. if i didn't do that i would end up posting 522 threads on rapes and soldiers crying in battlefields. shooting myself in the head is better than doing ****ty things like that to me. and what you need is a fist deforming your face. get lost now.
from now on, whenever you talk to or about me, i am simply going to ignore you. don't think that i don't have a reply for whatever it is that you say. simply consider yourself not worth of my time.

voice back? What are you talking about?

[faye]

dzj, sometimes it sounds as though you have woken up with with one of those rose thorns in your backside.
i have seen you say some caring and kind things and that you work with disadvantaged people, so you do have another side.
kakargirl is highly astute, politically aware and a respectful young woman. she is certainly no dummy that thrives on gossip. she shows absolute and complete concern for the pashtun society and thereby deserves respect from other people, whether they be pashtun or not.
the lead to this thread is an extreme. it will cause rections (has caused) some extreme reactions.
kakargirl asked me an exellent question. after pointing out negative situations she knows are happening to women, today in the 'liberated' west. she asked "what did liberation change, faye?'. i had to think.....i gave the answer, mostly of the benefits i personally have felt for me and there is no saying that under another culture such as pashto, i may not have even been happier. who knows.
the one thing i will say is, within democracy one can still live a cultural life, and people who choose to live differently, are also able to. whereas in a cultural lifestyle, there is not tolerence for those who are different. (so it appears from what i have studied and seen)
as a non-pashtun and a person who wishes the best for afghanistan, it saddens me sometimes to see some of the bickering here on pf, especially when it is nasty. there really is no time for bs. afghanistan and the pashtun society need to work together and be strong.

[IamDZJ]

mentally disabled people have an excuse for being the way that they are. i have zero tolerance for people who choose to behave brain dead. other than that, you people talk too much.

[faye]

well, if you can't help these brain dead, just ignore them.

[IamDZJ]

consider keeping your suggestions to yourself.

[ScimitarXEdge]

One thing I noticed with many impassioned and illogical arguments in support of capitalist based feminist doctrines is that tend to conflate vicious acts of hostility such as domestic abuse which are meritable concerns with valid and necessary faculties which define gender relations from an evolutionary and ecological standpoint.

What this demonstrates is that the banner they rally under as concern for women's welfare and improving women's conditions is disingenuous and is really a front for other motives; particularly destructive and exploitive ones.

The individuals who endorse such notions live in a realm of self delusion that somehow that by promoting such a dysfunctional system which exploits in such a parasitic and destructive manner, they're championing Freedom for Women and that women now are more free with greater dignity. This is where they have manipulated the terminology in a shallow attempt to validate things in their favor; they have tried to claim that dysfunction is freedom and our intrinsic dispositions needs in life are oppressions, traps and "limitations", or "Over glorifications". By putting pleasant sounding words like "progressive" and "advanced" next to their statements they have acquired they attempt to promote their beliefs are a form of betterment or saying "limited" and " ignorant" they portray the contrary as tyranny. That's not how reality works.

This is why in a previous post I made reference to reclaiming the terms; it wasn't said in some shallow attempt at winning cyber-debates; but to address how the useage of terminology has been warped, corrupted and maligned in attempt to falsely portray things and why they need to be reclaimed for the above reason.

When having such notions challenged on grounds of sociology, ecology , environmental principles, evolution and so on; they often attempt to evade having to deal with these contentions by disregarding them as irrelevant all the while they posture their conclusions with repetition without any much logical foundation in support of it; as if circular arguments and repetition makes it automatically factual.

What they don't realize is this is exactly why their approach and claims of their movement don't have merit; they cannot face the intellectual challenges to whatever they endorse. Every time they try to avert or divert from it, it's a mask for it's weaknesses and deficiencies and evidence of lacking intellectual foundations for their views. Hence the constant recycled rhetoric and emotional appeals.

Their entire mode of betterment and progress is defined by manufactured and surrogate constructs; they have no real intrinsic merit, they're diversions and alienations of our faculties; that have no support for our welfare other than in the context of standards imposed on the world artificially that would require such tactics in the first place. With such a condition; it should be obvious that it's the institutions which require those standards which are oppressing and making life difficult, not the things which are not in conformity with it.

This isn't to say legitimate issues of impropriety don't exist; as Feroza Banu said, women aren't provided their basic needs, good food, good health, care and love. Women deserve at least that much no matter what as do men. However; academic credentials and so called prestigious status symbols of technocratic societies are not essential aspects of life, they're no different than recreational acts. To define liberty and rights by them is really a travesty to both.


the "other parts" of the world often referred to here is really a synomym for representing Capitalist/Industrial Imperialist/Post Imperialist cultures and such ilk, i.e. historically Eurocentric societies; it's safe to say that those who generally endorse such ideas outside of a European background in "other" societies, other here referring to cultures which have encountered the brunt of imperial intrusion over the last several centuries; are reflecting the vestiges left over from such imperial enterprise, often driven by inferiority complexes, but mainly driven by the misinformation peddled from interference to their natural way of life.

In summary, this sort of diatribe is not in truth for the betterment of women, but an assault against Nature and in effect an assault against all of us; man, woman, and child. Nature has formed an equilibrium between all things and that equilibrium is being violated on every front.

[Badlun]

Modern education, university education, professional skills, free movement out side home, equal participation in social , political and economic activities is not an assault on nature. The same is already done by Pashtun men. Why not by Pashtun women too. Or you consider Pashtun women inferior to Pashtun men. Does not she have also feelings , desires and talent as a human being to earn her own money, to enjoy her own life with free movement and free expression. This is what I suggest for Pashtun women. Just to give them their status as a human being. Not to make her prostitute or to suggest something against her dignity or honour.

If she is an engineer, pilot, doctor, professor, skilled worker, president, politician, economist, writer or scholar, will this be an assault on nature and her dishonour or shame . Why she the poor creature has to be kept within the four walls other wise the nature will be bestroued and a catastrophe will occur which will carry way all the good we have in our so called Pashtunwali. Why only woman has to sacrifice by not getting modern education and not having job opportunities while males are already enjoying this dishonour and shameul activities!Why only Pashtun woman has to be the sole repositoire of the Pashtun honour, dinity and sharam haya.

Why male does not do the domestic works too. Why only Pashtun woman has to wash plates and cook food. Why she may also enjoy the vast world out side her four walls by striking a balance between home making and leading a successful and happy life out side their homes.

I know the feminists and women rights workers took decades in making the woman as equal human being in the west. It will take a long time in Pashtun society to bring the change.And the change is coming. Pashtun women are members of the Afghan and Pakistani Parliaments. They are appearing on media and are having jobs and businesses. They are seen now in universities and professional institutions.

We have to fight at two fronts against the ignorant chauvinist Pashtun men and women and the so called intelelctuals of utopias struggleing hard against any attempt to liberate Pashtun women and make her equal human being. My message is simple not covered in terms and jargon so that it may reach a common pashtun human being who may think a little why this barbarity is going on with 35 million Pashtun women for the last many centuries. I am sure we will win both the intelectual battle and the social educational movement as success is always for the change not for obscurantism , inactivity, fear of change. utopias and ignorance.

[Badlun]

its not gossiping its facts and alot girls have no sharam in britain they openly boast about this for them its something to be very proud of that they're dating clubbing drinking ect that they're not back wards, for them thats moving forward for me thats going back to stone age .

I cant understand that the same drinking, dating, clubbing if done by Pashtun men then we dont raise our eye brows but i done by Pashtun women then it becomes a question of sharam, haya, honour and Pashtunwali.

Evil is evil for both men and women. If one considers dating and clubbing or drinking bad then its bad for both sexes and both must be condemned equally as drinkling is injurious to bodies of both males and females.Clubbing an ddating may be bad but for both. If these are taken normal social activities then may be recommended for both Pashtun men and women. Why we single out only Pashtun women.

I those Pashtun women are proud of it then let them enjoy their pride.And if you dont like it yourself then dont do it and condemn the Pashtun boys too for that.

What I am talking here is freedom for Pashtun women of ree movement as responsable human beings. And the freedom for education, jobs, choosing their own life partners as per their own sweet will not orced by their families etc not necessarily freedom to drink, or doing clubbing or dating. I a Pashtun woman wants to do some thing abd then you cant stop her by imprisoning her in the our walls o her house.

I have seen such indecent things of Pashtun women even within the four walls that even a sex worker will consider it inhuman. Pashtun fathers are running their daughters or wives. Mothers are agents for their daughers. Brothers in law are having relations and so on. Even such women will always remain within the boundries of their houses but do whatever they want. Thus moveing around freely is not necessarily equivalent to some thing bad.Many free Pashtun women are chaste and many so called house wives are prostitutes.

[Badlun]

roshina i dont represent your pahktun khwa women many are free iv seen and very much liberated even when they newly come from pakistan, i only represent my own caste and family women and strict qandarian helmand women , there isnt one divorce to this day nor is there a unhappy woman that wants to runaway , nor has woman a been beaten black or blue or burnt, i speak for my type of family from kandahar and helmand i dont speak for others if they are in bad conditions then they should be free, as for our women they are tough and run the house like a military base the men are even careful , our new generation girls are studying not because of anyone else but because there fathers want them to so the change came with in the family we didnt need the out side to do that, sharam haya that only my own type of women would understand we are much stricter than your women we have separate rooms for men guests entrance ect , we go to all girls schools we dont go out too much when we dont need to our familys system our dress code is very strict i guess we are conservative with very old veiws old fashioned so sorry i got on your nerves il stop posting where theres so many liberated feminist im not one and nor do i intend to become one so sorry for repeating my self like a parrot our familys are too complicated for you to understand sorry if you took this list and said what you said to me to kandahrian strict family believe me they will call you a panjabian and throw you out of the village and this will be the women who do this not the men and if i did the same so would i be called that get thrown out as these people have a system that works for them when it stops who knows they might change but so far im happy with our values my last post wont be posting on these topics no more .

We are talking here of 35 million Pashtun women in the whole wolrd including Afghanistan, Pakistan. The issue has to do with the lethal combination of Pashtunwali with the wrongly interpreted Islam. The issue is not only limited to Helmand or Kndahar. Althu in these two areas of Pashtuns the situation is not different rom other parts of the world of Pashtuns. If some Pakistani Pashtuns are learning from the freer Panjabyan, then its also good news that many Pashtuns in Afghanistan are learning from the freedom of Tajik or Hazara women.

I have seen many Afghan Pashtuns(some are my relatives) who lead lives like Tajiks and reisdents of Kabul and the same time are good Pashtuns by observing all positive tenets of Pashtunwali and speak Pashto language. I wish our Pashtun women get the status of at least Panjabi or Indian or Tajik women i not of the western woman. Even women in Iran have better position that Pashtun women. Women in Malysia can be another example to follow.

What dress code you have or what life style you have, the same is held by majority of Pashtun women. Hence this struggle and this discussion.

If you speak only for your family and women of Helman or Kandahar then you are speaking for a very limited range of Pashtun women. Still the change for the better is destined for all the Pashtun women. Women rights is now a universal phenomenon and conservatism or so called intellectual debates against Pashtun women rights cant change this trend. Look how many Pashtun women are now seen in public life than the past and you will see that the efforts against freedom of Pashtun women are doomed to failure.

[Badlun]

just one question osho , in all this liberating women why do 20, 000 english women get murdered every year , in uk alot couples fight over money even though the woman is earning to keep her self , domestic violence is so high that the police makes arrests now,the women are binge drinking due to depression , trying so hard to find a partener , who derserts them because with in a week hes with someone else and the woman ends up pregnant and raising a kid too then the pressure to look good most women in uk are in debt due to fashion and salons is this what liberation so tell me are these women in better position if so explain even our priminister has called it broken britain due to the fact that so many disfunctional families this is what happens when culture and values are removed.

This is a very good observation. Freedom for Pashtun women does not mean we copy other nations in letter and spirit. Pashtun women represent one extreme while the women you described is another extreme. My demand is only and only the basic human rights for Pashtun women which include free movement, free expression, free and equal opportunities of higher education, jobs, businesses, driving and not remain imprisoned the whole lives in the 4 walls of their houses. I dont want to disturb the usual family life, happy marrriages, no divorces and other good aspects of Pashtun life style.

If we do exactly what others do then where will remain our distinction being Pashtun. But we may also accept some realities that divorce is better than a life in hell attached to a life partner which you hate from the core of your heart. This is your religious right too. We should not lead lives like animals eating, drinking, having children and be happy. This is what done by more than 90% of Pashtun women. They dont have any social, cultural, educational, economic, political life. They are born, married, having children, cooking and serving food to others, washing plates and clothes and die one day. This is a huge waste of human resources. I want to change this situation.

Pashtun women are equal human beings and they have equal rights to life and freedom as Pashtun men have. This wont disturb the usual Pashtun society fabric. This wont bring a catastrophe to what we have for the last centuries, This will enable 35 Million Pashtun women to lead their lives as human beings,,full life not like animals.

The economic problems like loans etc is also faced by men in the develped world. This is part and parcel of development, free market, open competition where lazy and less intelligent are left out in the race of development and have financial and other problems. There you will also see many happy families. All the women are not like what described, Do you think Pashtun women are leading lives with full prosperity and satisfaction. No. I have seen amilies selling their children for two dollars. The problem is poverty not status of women to be free or not.

[Alchemist]

Yes I have, where in it do you discern she was anti-feminism, her allusions are in attempt to look at the things she writes about in disdain.

In fact the quotes you;re= citing are precisely what I'm referring to.

It is disdainful to me as well, but would that make me a feminist too ?




























































...for a bachelor you sure do know a lot on this subject

[unknownprince]

Dzj,

I think your husband is a homosexual because I am wondering why you hound people on forums rather then engaging in any debate. You are a truly bitter person. If your not speaking about anything that is related to peoples'concerns about others well being, I kindly ask you to talk to your husband instead of hounding Catya and Kakargirl, and others that you are fixated on. It is not annoying to me at all.

Stop derailing threads because you are frustrated in life.

Find yourself a better hobby instead of following people on forums because that's all you do

Thanks

[unknownprince]

Osho, you are a liar and you aren't even pashtun

You are also a man