The Athiest Pays

[Dust]

How did you reach to the conclusion of the "invisible hand". Why could not the Chilean miners came out of the mines "miraculously" through the hidden "invisible hand intervention".Don't you think it was a good chance for God? Yet it took the knowledge of the textbooks studied by scientists, engineers, and now doctors to help them out of their predicament.
That certainly strenghthened my belief in massive drills than any divine intervention. Will you now tell me that those scientists would have never been successful if God had not allowed? If the scientists had failed, will you tell me that God did not want that to happen even though the families and friends prayed for thousands days?

Are you dead sure about "God's intervention" in this case or you are assuming?I guess you are assuming since you said there "must be" rather than "there is"? Something being assumed is still under the process of falsification, so how to we reach to the conclusion so early that Atheist became the instrument and helped the lady? If that was the answer to her prayer, perhaps God would have put some humility in the heart of the old lady to thank him, or God wanted to teach a lesson to atheist by making her call him devil,rather than angel (since everything is controlled by God).Do you mean that God is responsible for her "response" since she is not self-sufficient like her self-sufficient creator?

And I disagree that humans are not self-sufficient. If that was the case,the present organisms including humans would not be suriving on this earth. We need to thrive for our existence as organism and we do that every time we are challenged.

Anyway it was good catching up with you (lol!!)..more later gator..

Pretty interesting analysis!

I don't know if you ever come across a thread that I made called: Is God the cause of everything? Also, I made another thread with respect to the Chilean miners. These two threads are in-line with your line of thinking.

I don't know.

For me, the more I get acquainted with the first principles of politics the more I am concluding that there is something strange about our abode here on earth. Things are just perfect for us and that we seem to have everything we need, meaning we don't need to import anything from the outside.

About human self-sufficiency, no political theorist believes that we are self-sufficient. We feed off each other.

About the invisible hand, if God does exist it must be an invisible hand, no? If He does not then it is pretty clear. Moreover, not everyone on earth is fortunate, the principle of charities within religions is a pretty good tool to help the disadvantaged. The thing that does help government is the fact that there are people lower down in the hierarchy who are willing to shoulder the burden of societies less fortunate in the name of God. This is mind-boggling. This is one particular component of my research. Governments, without people donating their time, would have a hard time catering to every member of society. The fact that people are willing to sacrifice their time and money for others is an essential component of government.

How did this phenomenon start?

[As-Salaf As-Saalih]

Nice story!

As Muslims we should always believe that it is Allah who provides, even if it is someone else or ourselves who is providing. The earth has been furnished with everything for our needs. We are simply using the resources to make something out of them using our God-given intellect. So, in essence, Allah Subhanuhu wa Ta'ala is the cause of everything.

I believe that the Atheist is the devil, as far as this story goes. The devil's job is to take man away from Allah Subahanuhu wa Ta'ala. This is what the man was trying to do, however, as another member mentioned, he inadvertently became the provider for the person who was in need. Hence, Allah Subhanuhu wa Ta'ala does exist, and He does provide. We just think we don't see Him in action, but He works through His own creation, which essentially means that it is He Who is at work the whole time.

[Dust]

Pretty sums up the way I was looking at this story.

[unknownprince]

Pretty sums up the way I was looking at this story.

Dust watch this. I think you will find it interesting and relevant to this thread (reason people became Muslim). The end is especially important because one of the converts explains the scientific reasons as to why he became Muslim.

YouTube - young muslim converts london uk

[Wrayun]

I'm a Muslim, of course

makh na ka sat na?


j/k

[Wrayun]

Let's break it down a bit for those of you who didn't "get it".


There was an atheist living next door to an old woman who was a Muslim.

translation: there was this person.....called the atheist (atheist as in not a theist), because he does not believe in a creator or any sky-god, who just happens to live by an old woman who is a moslem...meaning, she believes in a sky-god, probably prays five times a day, and part of being of the moslem faith is also believing in shaytan, which is the Arabic/Aramiac form for Satan (devil).

The devil as we know, is a mischievous character, commonly associated with heretics, and rejecters of sky-god beliefs and authority.

mmmmmmm kkkkkk....

Everyday he could hear her praying and praising God for all of the things He had done for her. One day the old woman fell on hard times and had no food in her house.

The atheist overheard her praying to God to please send her some food. So, off the atheist goes to the grocery store, thinking he was gonna fix the old gal once and for all. He bought two bags of groceries and, after placing them on her porch, he rang her bell and then hid in some nearby bushes.

translation: as a believing moslem, the old lady prayed for favors from her god all the time. A believer, in most faiths, usually associates everything in their lives, whether good or bad, as sky-god-given. And sometimes, sky-god, works in mysterious ways. Believers are also encouraged to have faith in their sky-god, and first and foremost ask sky-god for anything and everything..to put their trust in their sky-god since the sky-god is the giver and sustainer of everything.

It just so happens that the moslem lady ran out of food = nothing to eat = no crackers or mashed potatoes...so, she did as believers would do...prayed and requested her sky-god for some sustenance before anyone else. She didn't ask her doctor, her lawyer, the social worker or even her atheist neighbor. She only asked her sky-god.

While she was busy asking and requesting her sky-god for favors, the atheist over heard her, instead of minding his own business. The atheist decided to have some innocuous fun which would teach the elderly woman a listen for foolishly believing in some invisible entity (sky-god) living in the clouds, that would help her in her hour of need. He went and brought some food (assuming that's what was in those bags) and left it at the old moslem lady door...rang her bell and hid behind some close by bushes like a naughty brat....later to pop out behind from them to mock the old lady for her irrational beliefs....

mmmmmmm kkkkkk....

When the old woman came out of her house, she saw the bags of groceries and started giving thanks to the Lord for sending her the food.

At that point, the happy atheist JUMPED from the bushes and shouted, "AH-HA! The Lord didn't send you those groceries! It was I who put them there!!!!"

Without a pause, the old woman shot back, "PRAISE YOU DEAR LORD. NOT ONLY DID YOU SEND THE GROCERIES, YOU MADE THE DEVIL PAY FOR THEM!"

translation: the old moslem lady opens her door unsuspectingly...finds two bags full of food and immediately starts to praise her sky-god.....because thats whom she initially requested for help...no one else...though not knowing that her nosey atheist neighbor had over heard her prayers...upon hearing her praises for her sky-god the atheists jumps out from behind the bushes and mocks the old lady for foolishly believing that her sky-god had sent down food for her...where in fact it was the atheist who went out of his way to buy them and teach her a lesson.....mmmm kkk...

realizing what was happening..the old lady thanked her sky-god even further...and added that her sky-god did it in such a way that the devil was fooled into paying for it...the devil being the atheist = for being a sneaky and obnoxious individual i.e. the way he went about teaching this poor old lady a lesson and mocking her beliefs....

He could have just bought the food, rang the bell...handed it to her and told her straight forward what he believed. Tho, the story is probably written by a moslem with too much time on his/her hand trying to malign all atheists by equating them to the devils = faith rejecting, mischievous characters. Not cool.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Dearest Wrayun, Masha Allah, nice a critique!

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Beloved Dust,

don't worry about Roshina, she will never answer a question that will put her on the spot. She is a Muslim but does not believe that Islam is the correct religion. Islam for her is a means to academic glory only, nothing more nothing less.

[Dust]

realizing what was happening..the old lady thanked her sky-god even further...and added that her sky-god did it in such a way that the devil was fooled into paying for it...the devil being the atheist = for being a sneaky and obnoxious individual i.e. the way he went about teaching this poor old lady a lesson and mocking her beliefs....

He could have just bought the food, rang the bell...handed it to her and told her straight forward what he believed. Tho, the story is probably written by a moslem with too much time on his/her hand trying to malign all atheists by equating them to the devils = faith rejecting, mischievous characters. Not cool.

The first bolded part: I saw it this way as well, as far as what the writer was trying to convey.

The second bolded part I find very humbling! You are right, we Atheists mock believers. We fail to see their inner strength and try to inadvertently convert them by mocking them.

My friend Wrayun, do you believe that God is the proving for people or do you believe that it is people who are providing for themselves and due to pretend humility believers give credit to God?

[شمله ور خراساني]

most muslims who apostate and become atheists do so because of peer pressure.

[Dust]

Not quite true. Could you elaborate?

[شمله ور خراساني]

Not quite true. Could you elaborate?

I have explained that in an earlier reply to you.

Most of these ex muslim atheists have become atheists because they have joined a community where there are many atheists.

And they argue that because they have studied a few books, now they are wiser and know that god does not exist. But once you start questioning them you soon realize their denial of existence of god is primarily based on popular opinion and opinion of people they respect as authority.

[Dust]

I have explained that in an earlier reply to you.

Most of these ex muslim atheists have become atheists because they have joined a community where there are many atheists.

And they argue that because they have studied a few books, now they are wiser and know that god does not exist. But once you start questioning them you soon realize their denial of existence of god is primarily based on popular opinion and opinion of people they respect as authority.

Are you going to drag me into a heated debate? I don't think it is quite like this, but you entitled to you opinion.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

I have explained that in an earlier reply to you.

Most of these ex muslim atheists have become atheists because they have joined a community where there are many atheists.

And they argue that because they have studied a few books, now they are wiser and know that god does not exist. But once you start questioning them you soon realize their denial of existence of god is primarily based on popular opinion and opinion of people they respect as authority.

Yes, you have touched the most important aspect: environment.

Dearest Dust, that is why in the Holy Quran we are taught to keep company with believers, people can influence one's way of thinking.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Are you going to drag me into a heated debate? I don't think it is quite like this, but you entitled to you opinion.

So, what led you to reject the existence of Allah? Be frank!