Afghan-Soviet war

[Catya Sher]

Oh I see you're Lebanese, Ulferker - or at least living in Lebanon!
Amazing I came here tonight to post re journalists
about Lebanese-American incredibly brave woman journalist, Helen Thomas.
Now about what you wrote:
was it Patrice Lumumba University?
That's where many from Africa Asia etc were sent for Soviet indoctrination, not real education.
How did you know all these fascinating details?

You mean the Politburu decided Amin's fate?
Well Andropov himself was a classic paranoic type.
So all it would take would be one minor behavior of Hafizullah Amin's
showing a fissure of independence from Moscow to upset Andopov and his clique, from the KGB's most dark days.

It's true about the Soviet population not knowing a thing about Afghanistan.

However, i interviewed captured military personnel. They clearly said that they had been told they were going to fight Americans and CHINESE too.
So maybe some groups were told one thing and others another reason for the Soviet intervention in Afghanistan.

About the coffins: the REAL reason they were nailed shut was that too many of the Soviets who had been killed by Mujahideen were horribly mutilated.
The sight would have been too shocking for anyone to behold.
However, it was not consideration for family and relatives dictating this policy.
It was fear of the word getting out about Moscow's failure to win in Afghanistan!
The proof of the lies told by the Red Army's high command [very analogously to those told today to the American people by propagandists/media/govt officials] would have been very clear.
I know the Soviet soldiers lived in abject terror of falling into the hands of
the "basmachi" as THEY called them [meaning "bandits" - after the Central Asian mujahideen who resisted the Bolsheviks ]

All men at every level heard the hair-raising tales of what angry Afghans had done to them. Not a nice sight. Hence the sealed coffins.

Probably too what you are saying as well.
I question, though, how many men were hit themselves by an RPG rocket?
RPG-7s are anti-TANK devices.
So they could have been burned up in a tank, that did happen a fair amount.
But not hit directly by the RPG-7.

I'm really glad you know about this time, however!
We can discuss it more, if you are willing in the future, on this thread or others.

[Ulfserker]

No I am Muslim Georgian by descent, but living now in Lebanon.

No, It was not Patrice Lumumba's university, it was Moscow's Institute of Oriental Studies. My relative studied there at that time and he told me.

Now on Amin's fate. Most people knew that Amin is friend of USSR and communist-secularist, as Amin insisted upon entering soviet troops in Afghanistan. But Andropov was personal opponent of Amin (possibly because Amin was somewhat Stalinist, Stalin was condemned on XX gathering of party in 1956 and Andropov was among them, who condened), but he managed to convince most other members in neccessity of removing Amin.

First they tried to poison Amin, and plan worked, Amin get sick. But operation for poisoning Amin was in such secrecy, that most KGB residenture in Afghanistan was unaware, and they sent doctors from soviet hospital, to save Amin. Doctor delegation was headed by Colonel Kuznetsov. And they managed to heal Amin. Fearing not to disclose their plan, Andropov ordered to commit operation of liquidating Amin by military means. And That soviet doctors have also suffered, Kuznetsov and several other doctors also caught by fire and killed.

For that times and early also, soviet people knew that world is divided in two parts - our (i.e. Soviet) and American. And in fact those soldiers really confronted american interests. But in Ferghana (It is in Uzbekistan) soldiers were instructed to defend soviet southern border and Afghan people.

No, they did not called afghan mujahideen Basmachi. Afghan mujahideen had two names among soviet soldiers - Dukh (дух Russian for Ghost, it was slang name like charlie for vietcong) and Dushman (Душман Afghan, persian and so on for Enemy). Friendly afghans were called Dehqan (Дехкан Afghan for peasant. so were called civilian villagers) and Kayon (Кайон Etimology unknown for me, so were called Afghanistan army soldiers).

It is true, that RPG is AT device, but the fact is, that Mujahideen did not possessed any artillery and in combat, where soviet and afghn warriors were too close to each other, soviets were also unable to call artillery because it will hit themselves.

So, both sides developed tactics to use RPG as "surrogate" for artillery and used frequently. Mujahideen of Ahmad Shah-Mas`ud, who was most ill supplied, but still group consisted by 10-12 man, were carrying at least 3 RPG launchers and 6 grenades. Soviet squads also carried 2 RPG per 8 man (One BTR can transport 8 man inside armor) or 6 man (One BMP capacity).

This frequent use of RPG also caused grenade to hit man directly. And There is several tipes of grenades for RPG-7, among them are chinese and other copies of frag ammuniton, which if hit, will surely dismember the body in horrible manner.

Mutilation was also present there, on that I agree.

[khushal]

so afghans are the ones that insisted the soviets to invade afghanistan, the begged russia for there troops because the afghan army were losing against the mujahideen..the russians then came in and killed over 1 million afghans..

Manzarah,
Before the soviets came to afghanistan, the americans were funding and supplying the majahadeen with weapons and were getting stronger and stronger. Americas intention was to make the soviet union nervious about the American backed majahadeen so they would invade the country and draw them into a quagmire which worked. The soviets feared that if the Majahadeen take over Kabul, they would allow an American military base in the soviets union's backyard.

This story about the afghans inviting the soviet union is bogus. The soviets were dictating to the afghan government on what reforms to take to socialize the country and Hafizalah amin told Breznev point blank "I am the president of afghanistan, I decide what happens here." Thats when breznev decide to order the invasion and kill Hafizalah Amin because they viewed him as uncontrollable. Hafizalah Amin hated the soviet leadership, he even blamed them for orchastrateing an assasination attempt using Tariki but he struck first killing Taraki. Karmel was the afghan ambassador to Moscow and the soviets installed him as the puppet leader.

[khushal]

By the way, the USSR soldiers who went in Afghanistan, were assured of their fair internationalist mission. I have old paperlist, which was delivered to any USSR soldier upon their arrival in Afghanistan, with some elementary phrases, on one side is russian meaning, on another transcription of pashtun phrase - There are two vey interesting ones - Jashne engelabe saur-ro tabriq miguim (Congratulations to the day of april revolution) and mo baroe komak be afganistan dust omadim (We are here to help friendly afghanistan). When soldier read those, he felt that he is there to help the people, who's most high value was april revolution.

And in soviet union people was absolutely ignorant what was going in Afghanistan! Only military personnel and party high positioned people knew.

And also word about Soviet soldier's interview, where he said "we realized americans were not there" - it is not also true. Soviet soldiers were told that they were fighting for southern borders, International obligation, to help afghan people. US was never mentioned in soviet preparation propaganda to soviet soldiers.

Soviets destroyed villages (Kishlaks) not with Airforce, but with divisionary and regimental artillery (MLRS-s, Grad was most common but also other types)

When government insisted not to open the coffins, always inside was wooden mock-man, dressed in military uniform, because the soldier was killed in such manner, that body was unable to recover (He died in high mountains or fell into deep canyon, or was hit by RPG, or was burnt into BTR and so on), so command sent such mock-coffins to prevent parents of soldiers from protesting.

They had interviewed the soviet soldiers and were told that they were their to help the afghans from the americans. When they asked their commanders why the afghans are fighting so feriously if they are there to help them, their commanders responded the americans soldiers are with the rebels helping them. Most Soviet Generals interviewed that were on the afghan field admitted that they knew the war was lost in 1984. It was too late and impossible to correct the mistakes for the tide to turn.
The Soviet generals also said that the american generals are doing exactly what they did and America is facing a DeJa Vu situation.

[Ulfserker]

They had interviewed the soviet soldiers and were told that they were their to help the afghans from the americans. When they asked their commanders why the afghans are fighting so feriously if they are there to help them, their commanders responded the americans soldiers are with the rebels helping them. Most Soviet Generals interviewed that were on the afghan field admitted that they knew the war was lost in 1984. It was too late and impossible to correct the mistakes for the tide to turn.
The Soviet generals also said that the american generals are doing exactly what they did and America is facing a DeJa Vu situation.

I will explain why they though they fight against America. At that time, was a rage of cold war. Americans were known all over USSR as evil - Soviet propaganda used events such as Song Mi village, Segregation and discrimination of afroamericans, support to Latino american dictatorships (Somoza, Pinochet) and so on. So, america and capitalism was considered evil by most common USSR citizen. And the world was divided in two - black and white, evil and good - i.e. US spheres of influence and Soviet ones (latter were called "Friendly socialist peoples" or "Friendly peoples who overthrow imperialist and/or capitalist yoke and began building socialism").

Afghanistan also considered to overthrow yoke of Imperialism. Back in 1919 Soviet Russia, despite internal war and famine, sent 1 Million gold Rubles (1 Ruble - equalized to 0,774234 grammes of pure gold for that times) to Afghanistan and recognized it's independence from UK. Amanullah Khan traveled through USSR and also visited Tbilisi. And so on.

Than, when Saur revolution happened in 1978, both US and USSR began looking towards Afghanistan. US wanted to avenge it's pride, lost in Vietnam and drag USSR in same type of war, and USSR wanted to "Wash soldier's boot in Indian Ocean's water". First USSR sent advisors and begun executing infrastructural projects, then they sent soldiers to defend their interests. US plan worked.

[Catya Sher]

Ulfserker,
[What does that name mean anyway],
You are a treasure trove of knowledge about that time.
I wager a guess you were over there yourself...!
You don't have to say.

I am looking forward to continuing this. I got sidetracked on
other political topics, then couldn't locate the thread.
It was hiding away here in Education.

I'll have many more questions for you

[Ulfserker]

I'll have many more questions for you

Well then, at your service.

[Catya Sher]

How kind of you, Ulfserker !

I realized afterward that you may not even want to discuss about this,
so therefore I shouldn't have been so presumptive that you would answer !

So I appreciate a lot that you are willing.

I'll be back tomorrow to start in as I have one thing to post and I have to go now.

Believe me, I used to study this stuff about all the equipment and weapons used by the Soviet forces, just for fun, so I'd understand the war more accurately.

No one knew much among Westerners really. They talked a lot about this new such and such introduced by Red Army forces. But when I would talk to people over there, the Western reports would sometimes turn out to be wrong or exaggerated.

So it was difficult to sift through all the contradictory claims, etc to find out the truth.

I can see you know what you're talking about, so I feel all energized by that, to get some correct info & insights - finally, all these years later !!

I guess part of me still is back in that era, so it's of great interest.

About the dushman question, I meant more the official or let's say perhaps academic term I always thought was used was Basmachi.

I know the soldiers used Dushman and Dehqan, though I hadn't heard of that other untranslateable term.

But in the reports made for example, I think in the earlier years of the war at least, the Soviet writers called them Basmachis.
It was a clearly disparaging term evoking the Basmachi rebellion against the Communist takeover of Muslim Central Asian lands.

[Ulfserker]

Salam fi huna

I received interesting from my relatives in Georgia (I have some archive about this, it remains from my uncle) and now I will translate it for you.

Also I told them to locate my notebook in which I have written some interesting quotes from "Afghanistan: Myth and Truth" (This is small booklet (134 pages) written by some M. tayyar in 1987 to justify Soviet invasion, writes in such way even Fox news will be ashamed to do same, he claims to be orientalist and historian, but I doubt) and also will post it here

It is memoirs of one Soviet Soldier from Georgia, which I wrote down. He was among first waves of soldiers who entered afghanistan in 1980

We were in armenia, Kirovakan, an on 02:00 AM we were told to stand up and were led to planes, no one told us where we are flying. As of disembarking, we saw some strange scripts, but I did not paid to it big attention. We though we were in middle Asia. Then we discovered that we are in afghanistan.

First we reacted very harshly as we saw blood, At first were also suicides. Four suicide in my regiment. but after - human can adopt to anything! Later we have no reaction on dismembered bodies. We were telling each other - If I die, do not leave my body unburied.

We were called Shuravi. Till 03 PM we were helping villagers to gather harvest, than we ambushed by the same villagers. Why? because we did no good deed. If you break my house's door open and shoot at me gun, and then bandage the wound, it is no good deed. If you kill my parents and after take me to shelter for parentless, it is also no good deed. It is we were doing there.

And we have to defend. From both sides. Platoon (as common 27 man) was assigned to defend object. If platoon was unable to defend object, surviving members of those platoon were shot.

I know almost all Georgian veterans. Five thousand. And you can not even find five of them with "protector" or "money" (i.e. Those, who have high-ranked relative, or possessed financial abilities, bribed officials and arranged business in that way, that his conscript son were not sent in Afghanistan, but in comparatively calm area - Ukraine, for example. Those, who have not such privileges were sent in Afghanistan)

[Catya Sher]

Oh my goodness, how fascinating, thanks Ulfserker.

It rings so true overall.

I didn't remember about helping the dehqans gather in the harvest.
I wonder if the Red Army dropped that duty after the first year of the invasion ?
I know it was one of those publicity stunts to show the home audience
that they were "fulfilling their international duty" to their Afghan comrades.

Also I didn't know about the remainder of the platoons being shot.
TERRIBLE!

[I should post a few of the accounts i gathered during that time
to give some other pieces of the puzzle.]

YOUR stories are BETTER, though and more authentic !

4 suicides in his regiment ?
I also never heard of that right at the start of the war.

I guess the conscripts were SO shocked and emotionally
disoriented.

Actually I didn't even know that there that many Georgians sent at all.
I thought maybe a very few.

This is a surprise too.

I knew about all the Central Asians = from Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, etc. some of whom were sent to
make the Afghans feel more at home than they would with Slavic people.

Ulfserker, can you post more of that memoir ?
THIS IS SO VALUABLE
for History and comprehension of that war
for all future generations.

Shokran [as you are staying in an Arabic country]

[Ulfserker]

I didn't remember about helping the dehqans gather in the harvest.
I wonder if the Red Army dropped that duty after the first year of the invasion ?

Possible so. But they still executed infrastructural projects.

Also I didn't know about the remainder of the platoons being shot.

Yes, were such incidents also.

Suicides were very common all over the war. Suicides and heroine. You know, soldiers were delivered 9 cheques per battle day.

And this cheques was traded to locals for 500 afghan one cheque. This money was used for heroine. Not only money, I know for example that ammunition also was good currency. Two corporals traded 2500 ammo, i.e. 5 zinc (Zinc is called to 500 rounds of 7,62X39 or 5,45X39 ammo, as they were packed in zinc boxes) for woman to locals, who they kept in their tent.

Actually I didn't even know that there that many Georgians sent at all.
I thought maybe a very few.

Yes, five thousand, but many of them did not assigned to military tasks, but instead on logistical and engineering and so on, so there is only 125 KIA and 2 MIA among Georgian citizens (Several Georgian Azeris, Georgian Armenians, and Abkhazians also)

I also remember one totally blind man. He told me that 12 November 1981 they were carrying out wounded from battle and he was walking alongside BMP. BMP struck mine and exploded, and that man was wounded in face and one eye was kicked out by fragment, and second eye also blinded. But still that man did many jobs (he was living n village area) and even play dominoes.

Ulfserker, can you post more of that memoir ?
THIS IS SO VALUABLE

After engagements, wounded were carried to medpoints, were they were selected as hopeless and who still had chances to survive. Hopeless were even carried to morgues simultaneously.

If one was wounded lightly and did not remembered conditions and situation precisely, and eyewitnesses also do not confirm his words, possible one would be blamed for self-harming and simulation of wounding to get off from action.

Once one soldier, Uzbek national, was lost from camp at night guard, camp commanding officer thought, that he defected and sent two platoons (8-8 man) in nearby villages to search, no one of those 16 returned. What was reason for this 16 dead? Only if that officer would not sent them, he would be executed himself as helper to deserters.

Discipline was 0 in camps. soldiers were stealing ammunition and supplies to trade it for heroine, was problems with supply also - if not conserve cans, we were dead by hunger on guarding posts. (Guarding post is checkpoint erected on top of hill near important road to guard convoys and columns from ambushes) Because they throw us with helicopter and told that we will stay there for 3 days, while rotation arrived after 5 or 6 days. Uniforms were also problem - in mountains it distorts very fast.

Stealing military supplies to trade for drinks and drugs were main problem, second was stealing same for trading on gold and silver nuggets, gemstones and so on. third was very low level of discipline and subordination. Because soldiers were not willing to sacrifice their lives on orders of officer, who were using drugs yesterday from same syringe.


Next I will also write on release of Georgian POW Archil Kopadze from mujahideen captivity and about Tayyar's booklet.

[Catya Sher]

This site is SO VERY fortunate to have you here, Ulfserker !
[How did you happen to find it ?]

What type of infrastructure jobs did they do ?

I knew about the trading of Kalashnikovs
to mujahideen for drugs -
did the Soviet conscripts ever trade them for simple FOOD too?

I know the rations were ATROCIOUS !

The Soviet prisoners I interviewed said that the cans were labeled
To Be Used by 1964 - or some year like that, and this was 1980s !!

So I wonder if some of the Soviet soldiers were smart and stockpiled for their
guard post duty with Afghan food ? i would have if I had been there !

I didn't know about trading for GOLD? SILVER? What did they do with those ?
Take them home secretly and sell ?
That might have been difficult to hide, though, as well as to smuggle out of Afghanistan.
This is truly fascinating.
I could imagine they would want the famous lapis lazuli - or emeralds - but what did they do with them, and which did they prefer?

You are a 'gem' yourself for giving us so much insight into
that experience.
It's deeply important to me, but hardly anyone knows about it
OR knows ACCURATELY, as you do.
Looking forward to hearing about Archil - an old Georgian name of course.

I watched a little of the tedious, slow-moving dealings over the release of a couple other prisoners, so I know how tricky these releases were.

Contrary to what one would expect, the Red Cross was not helpful or effective in arranging for the releases.

What was Archil's story?

Your stories about the officer and the 16 killed are unbelievable.
Thanks so very much for relating them to us.

[Ulfserker]

did the Soviet conscripts ever trade them for simple FOOD too?

Rifles for food no, or very rare occasions, but ammunition was traded for food.

I didn't know about trading for GOLD? SILVER? What did they do with those ?

Nuggets and gems were traded mainly by officers of upper rank (Captain and higher) as they were able to sent them to USSR for good profit.

Looking forward to hearing about Archil - an old Georgian name of course.

That's impressing! Yes it is old name, very spread in Georgia and name of one Georgian Ruler-poet.

Ok than. Archil is from Dvan village of Kareli region. born in 1969 and was conscripted in 1987. Received three month long training and was dispatched in Afghanistan, Baghlan wilayah. Later they set camp in the area near village Akaulang of Khinjan region. He was captured outside camp by local mujahideen and taken to their base, almost week after he was infected with malaria, after he was healed, he several times tried to escape but failed. After this attempts he was kept in locked barn to avoid further tries for escape, until he was released from there by local mujahideen commander named fadhl al-din. From then almost year and half Archil was kept there, at this time USSR forces has withdrawn. After Soviet withdrawal Fadhl al-din promised Archil to hand over to DRA. And he kept promise, handed over Archil to DRA soldiers in June 1990. DRA informed USSR (Yet not dissolved) about this and Archil's cousin went to Kabul on the same day they were told that Archil is alive and in Kabul. They returned in Georgia 27 July 1990, after three years of captivity.

I watched a little of the tedious, slow-moving dealings over the release of a couple other prisoners, so I know how tricky these releases were.

This release happened fairly thanks to Fadhl al-din. If not him, it should never happen. also there are two other Georgians official MIA (Driver of supply car Jambul Kortava and his pair Konstantine Zarandia, both were MIA 28 June 1981) and they were never found.

This was discovered accidentally. Coffin was sent to Konstantine's family, and mother secretly managed (As common for christians, coffins are kept for one-two days in Georgia, because all relatives were able to offer last honor to deceased, so she opened coffin at night) to open coffin till buried. And she discovered wooden mock with uniform there. Parents managed to insist on investigation. And they received letter from from Shkvarko, political department commander for military detachment with field post number 93992 (They both served there. I have photography of this letter), where he wrote that they were assigned to same supply vehicle, which jammed and get off column in hostile region, and never returned, but found after some time exploded and burnt. bodies were not found, so two were considered MIA, not only Konstantine. but the command decided to cover this up and sent mocks.

Jambuli's parents were unaware, but they were also informed. Even today those two are officially considered as MIA.

[Catya Sher]

What a happy ending for Archil !
It would be fun to go speak to him today and get his memories of
captivity and how he was treated by mujahideen etc.

That is SO NICE you have given the credit to Fazluddin that he deserves.
I always love when people keep their promises.

It would be neat to find him as well and interview him to hear all of the details.

It's wonderful that he was so kind.

One can imagine how happy Archil's family was that they were in Kabul the same day!

[Catya Sher]

That IS mysterious about what happened to Konstantine and jambul [what kind of name is that ? A Georgian one I haven't heard of ?]

I wonder whether they are roaming around somewhere in that region all these years...

One has to feel sorry for these people because, after all, they did not CHOOSE to be deployed to Afghanistan.

I'm sure NO ONE wanted to go there, especially after stories starting getting back about the terrible conditions and situation for Soviet military and other personnel.

What on the tank would have jammed ? The gearshift ? I was IN one of those T-54 tanks but not in action of course, just one that one of the commanders had for show.

I wonder why mujahideen would have attacked the tank if it were stationery, like sitting there by the roadside unable to go anywhere.

What does it sound like really happened ?

Would the two have thrown grenades at it to keep it from falling into the hands of the Mujahideen?

If so, where would they have gone?

The Mujahideen would have proudly announced about them USUALLY if they had captured them. It was a source of great prestige to capture any of the Shuravi alive.