Medical Thread

[BarakzaiAbdali]

In my spare time, I am reviewing Bukhari, (the official 9 volumes with Arabic and associated translation by Muhammad Muhsin). I wonder if this hadith provides a basis for women in medicine. Note that it discusses how the women were taking care of patients and the wounded. It discusses it even in the context of critical care type situations where men were wounded in war. Just food for thought... once again no fatwa. Certainly shows how the Prophet was so very reasonable in his advice... he neither comprimised the care of patients nor did he compromise modesty. He believed in a world where both could concepts went hand in hand with reason.
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Here is the hadith from Sahih Bukhari Volume 1 Chapter 25 hadith 321

Hafsa said, 'We used to forbid our young women to go out for the two 'Id prayers. A woman came and stayed at the palace of Bani Khalaf and she narrated about her sister whose husband took part in twelve holy battles along with the Prophet and her sister was with her husband in six (out of these twelve). She (the woman's sister) said, "We used to treat the wounded, look after the patients and once I asked the Prophet, 'Is there any harm for any of us to stay at home if she doesn't have a veil?' He said, 'She should cover herself with the veil of her companion and should participate in the good deeds and in the religious gathering of the Muslims.' When Um 'Atiya came I asked her whether she had heard it from the Prophet. She replied, "Yes. May my father be sacrificed for him (the Prophet)! (Whenever she mentioned the Prophet she used to say, 'May my father be sacrificed for him) I have heard the Prophet saying, 'The unmarried young virgins and the mature girl who stay often screened or the young unmarried virgins who often stay screened and the menstruating women should come out and participate in the good deeds as well as the religious gathering of the faithful believers but the menstruating women should keep away from the Musalla (praying place).' " Hafsa asked Um 'Atiya surprisingly, "Do you say the menstruating women?" She replied, "Doesn't a menstruating woman attend 'Arafat (Hajj) and such and such (other deeds)?"
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Enjoy!

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Works been busy lately. Folks dont seem to want to stay out of the hospital. Side hobbies like discussing politics fall by the wayside during these surges in admissions. However, will try to keep active at least on this thread with various opps:

http://www.quinnipiac.edu/academics/...ol-of-medicine

For Connecticut residents a new medical school (MD granting institution) is going to open up. It think Northeasterners in general should consider it as I think Quinnipiac is a private institute and will probably not be bound purely by having to admit people based on a statehood thing.

Since it will be brand new folks who were worried about getting in may have a better shot here as some other candidates will hesitate to enroll at a new med school. That shouldnt deter people because it takes a lot of hard work to start a med school and Yale faculty will be co involved... making it less likely to fall through. I've yet to hear of a medical school on the American continent with MD granting powers not do just fine whatever its age.

Big Afghan refugee population here in Connecticut may benefit from this opp.

[Admin Khan]

How do medical schools view Engineers(CSE, EE ,CpE,CE,MechE)?

[Admin Khan]

I should've been more specific. What I meant was, it's far more difficult to get a 3.8, 3.9 GPA in a field like Computer Science, or EE when compared to a Gender Studies major, or Women studies major, due to it's less intensive course requirements. Does the board of admission realize this, or is it strictly based on the GPA? I mean, I believe it's statistically accurate to claim it's a lot harder to maintain a >3.5 in an Engineering school, than it is to maintain it in a social science field. I know many bright Computer Scientists, most which I consider as geniuses that have 3.3's, and 3.4's and I am pretty confident they could've ended up with a 4.5/4.0 had their major been something like Sociology or Female studies. I hope you get my drift. Credit requirements for the major, intensity are all different.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Question from a student here:
"Ok i read most of it until now. Um i still didn't get the whole Pre-med idea bcz when i was applying to colleges they had that as a separate major. So is tht all the pre-req's I also don't get y calculus is a pre req. anddd....... if i was born in NY how long will it take now tht i am an adult to reestablish my residency there and will being a resident help me get accepted to med school bcz i have heard in state ppl are wanted more and have a higher rate of acception"

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Generally, state residency does affect acceptance into state medical schools. A few land grant state institutes like University of Michigan deviate from this rule at times. The private schools within a state do not prefer state residents.

For your own benefit, do not do the premed major as these days you can do a more refined major like comp sci, biology, molecular bio, engineering, just about anything. The premed major that some colleges host is basically just a simple run of the mill biology degree anyway.

I am not sure how long it takes for you to reestablish state residency... but theoretically if you leave the US for a foreign nation for a period of time, as I know it, you dont lose state citizenship... you may not need to pay local state taxes, but you dont lose your local citizenship if you own property that the state and and call it you primary residency. Usually, if you move to a new state, after living there a year you get the benefits of a state resident and can call yourself one. So if you move back, I would wager that after 1 year or so (though I am not familiar thoroughly with NY state rules) that you would pay in state tuition and be called a state resident should you so desire.

Here is an excellent book from the association of american medical colleges that puts the data together rather well. This a preview:
https://www.aamc.org/students/downlo...ok_preview.pdf

And I think you have to buy the book to see the rest.

What I would do if I were you, is look here at Columbia's website. They are the best medical school in the whole state and one of the top ones in the world. If you basically print out their requirements and tack them up in your dorm room and shoot for the goals that they describe, you should be fine for the other state medical schools should you accomplish according to their standards.

http://ps.columbia.edu/education/apply#req

Here is NYU's requirement page:
http://school.med.nyu.edu/admissions...-requirement-0

I dont really see any demand on Calculus but I in my day we did have to take a year of some higher level mathematics.

Another great school in Tennesse across the country, Vanderbilt, doesnt list the mathematics requirement:
https://medschool.vanderbilt.edu/adm...n-requirements

I think the deal is that its tacitly recommended because Physics IS a requirement. The bedrock on which Newtonian Physics rests (and even beyond into electrical field theory) is Calculus and the concepts therein.

The final thing I advise you to do is to shut out most Pashtuns during your studies and process. Wait to work with them again and find them when you are done with your MD. Work with a group of people with the same goal as yourself who are smarter than you and you will find yourself elevated. The experience I had growing up, East, West, North, and South was that no one tried to knock you off course more than your own people. I still cannot fathom why, but I figure its some sort of survival of the fittest and scrounging for resources, or perhaps, misery loves company. Its the same concept that plaques the African American community. See Chris Rock's description, it fits really well with a bit less of obscenity of course, to the experiences with our own people:
Jail vs Education - YouTube

The girls who want to do it but then find circumstances wont permit will start preaching religion to you to guilt you out of it or suggest directions that throw you off your goal. Don't waste your time going to get togethers. That doesnt mean you dont give God his due by keeping your obligations... just dont run off to the Nawruz ceremony if you got a test in 3 days.

The guys in your batch will start messing with your head saying you'll be so old as a female etc etc and that you wont be able to get married. Hogwash.

Bottom line, drown out the world and immerse yourself in your curriculum until you are all done in 8 years. Then return to your people undeterred. That is the most important prerequisite. Do not listen to the oft trumpeted lie that "college is a place you grow" by going to see some famous speaker from Afghanistan or Greg Mortensen parachute in off the top of the empire state building. Have fun on your vacations but remember college is a place to gain education and skill, thats it. Nothing more, nothing less. Networking happens on its own as you demonstrate your academic superiority.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

How do medical schools view Engineers(CSE, EE ,CpE,CE,MechE)?

Admin Khan, this is something I wrestled with for some time... always wondering how unfair it might be for say a history major (I find that you and others hear are as well versed in history as a US history major without even doign the curriculum) with a 4.0 to trump an Engineering 3.75.

Personal anecdote was that my engineering degree helped a lot. Its always, like any job about the complete package.

The issue is who comprises the committee at the school you interview at. So at vanderbilt or harvard the committee is going to have radiologist, surgeons, internists etc. At local state schools its often psychiatrists and internists and family practitioners. The former group loves technical people like engineers who can contribute to advancing medical science... these specialists see you as a potential future them, an academic that will contribute. The latter group will be intimidated but if you show them that you have excellent presentation skills and can couple a humanistic bent to your technical self (i.e show them you are not R2D2 from Star Wars) they will also give you quiet a bit of respect.

An engineer in the bunch who is reasonably qualified with say a 3.5 or above still stands out if he is able to come across as caring and compassionate. It also shows that committee that you can handle the rigors of medicine if you can handle the rigors of engineering.

You can see here from the Knox School (take it with a grain of salt as the stats are over a decade old) that Bio majors deluged the school with apps and a large number of them got in... as did anthropology majors on the flip side:

http://www.knox.edu/statistics.xml

The engineers still stacked up well and almost equivalently, meaning that the pool of engineers applying probably had similar stats to the other groups.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

I should've been more specific. What I meant was, it's far more difficult to get a 3.8, 3.9 GPA in a field like Computer Science, or EE when compared to a Gender Studies major, or Women studies major, due to it's less intensive course requirements. Does the board of admission realize this, or is it strictly based on the GPA? I mean, I believe it's statistically accurate to claim it's a lot harder to maintain a >3.5 in an Engineering school, than it is to maintain it in a social science field. I know many bright Computer Scientists, most which I consider as geniuses that have 3.3's, and 3.4's and I am pretty confident they could've ended up with a 4.5/4.0 had their major been something like Sociology or Female studies. I hope you get my drift. Credit requirements for the major, intensity are all different.

Yeah I agree - The way that this is usually averaged out is the science GPA. So I get it as well, in terms of what you mean - the person doing interior design probably has about 4 more hours in her or his day to process a complex physics concept versus that engineer who has 3 design projects, 2 EE exams, and some humanities obligations on top of that as well as required labs.

I think stats do matter but can be overcome. I mean its sort of like real life.

Scenario 1:
Cutesy girl who can dress just right and carry a conversation with witty aphorisms and is a humanities major with a research project
GPA 4.0
Science GPA 3.7

vs

Pudgy Engineering girl with oily hair, zits, dry skin because she tried hard to scrub the zits off before interview but a reasonably nice but mildy introverted personality. Speaks when necessary and doesnt BS.
GPA: 3.4
Science GPA: 3.6

All else being equal, my guess is that candidate 1 is going to be admitted in most places unless candidate 2 has some show stopper like her dad is the leading cardiothoracic surgeon at Cleveland Clinic.

I think medicine tries its best to be meritocratic, but like most human systems, true piety and practical accomplishment sometimes get drowned out.

Some places are considering ways to get around these human errors by changing the interview process.

I once suggested that men should interview and women should interview women - not for purdah but because I think that girls are probably more likely to be able to weed out candidate 1 versus candidate 2 than we guys are.

[Admin Khan]

What are the pre-med requirements? I tried looking it up, but I see all kind of different requirements. I noticed, the physics required for them is Algebra based, not calculus. Hmm.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

What are the pre-med requirements? I tried looking it up, but I see all kind of different requirements. I noticed, the physics required for them is Algebra based, not calculus. Hmm.

Which sites do you mean? The Vanderbilt one, the Columbia one, or the NYU one? They all seem to say the same thing form what I saw.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Columbia:
"One year of English and one year each of biology and physics, with labs
Two years of chemistry, one year of which must be organic chemistry, with labs"

From NYU:
English-1 year (two years are recommended)
Inorganic Chemistry- 1 year (including laboratory)
Organic Chemistry - 1 year (including laboratory)*
General Physics- 1 year (including laboratory)
General Biology- 1 year (including laboratory)

From Vanderbilt:
Biology: A minimum of 8 semester hours, including laboratory.
General Chemistry: A minimum of 8 semester hours including laboratory.
Organic Chemistry: A minimum of 8 semester hours including laboratory.
English and Composition: A minimum of 6 semester hours in English literature and/or writing.
Physics: A minimum of 8 semester hours, including laboratory.

[Toramana]

Barakzai, how much is English important for medical school? Some of my acquaintances whose sons got admitted to elite medical schools here told me "it is extremely" important" (if you have an idea).

[Admin Khan]

BA,
those descriptions are just a bit vague. For instance, each major research university offers a wide array of "Intro to Bio" courses, or Physics 1 & 2. Physics 1, say for a CSE/EE major would be different than the traditional algebra based Physics 1. How do you know which one corresponds with their requirements? I didn't even see any course descriptions. Same goes for Math, there is a Calculus for social science students, and a Calculus that the more traditional CSE/EE guys take.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Barakzai, how much is English important for medical school? Some of my acquaintances whose sons got admitted to elite medical schools here told me "it is extremely" important" (if you have an idea).

Hey my friend, salamoona,

So, this is another interesting question... I can give you two practical scenariors.

I knew one Afghan girl with a very high MCAT score... she did extremely well (almost perfect) on the bio section, very well in the physical sciences and a surprisingly low score in the Verbal (english practical) section.

Yet, other factors, her high GPA as an engineer, her work abroad (she did it during undergrad so no extra time was required, and her research were mitigating factors that made it a nonissue for an already interesting Afghan of middle class background.

Yet I also knew an Asian fellow from Taiwan, an engineer as well, very strong in electrical engineer but very obedient and quiet in his cultural motif. He had a similar score setup and did not get in.

So I think other factors come into play.

The general rule amongst applicants is: Do not blow off the English/Verbal section and think its a breeze, it also requires practice with its long passages.

From your verbal skills here and your writing ability, you would, for instance do just fine with little preparation. Other engineers who are predominantly mathematical and men of few words have had their own trouble.

With respect to what your colleague told you; it helps at the elite schools because they expect to graduate physician academicians who will have to communicate with the world in the written and oral modaliites through scientific letters and journals and national talks.

There was a major paradigm shift that occurred in the US in the 70s where patient centric medicine became emphasized. It used to be a bit more cut and dry like the British system before it or what you see in Khybar were the emphasis was not on customer satisfaction, but rather finding the answer to the patient's ailment. This was called the PATERNALISTIC era of medicine and is looked down upon. Now the notion is that if you are able to communicate with the patient, effectively and efficiently, you will garner more information and increase the clinical yield. This is called PATIENT CENTERED practice. The problem is that in some ways the pendulum has swung too far the other way and hospitals are becoming more like luxury hotels that over order tests versus emphasizing diagnostics and a strong clinical knowledge base.

So that is how English skills come into play. Yet the types of personalities in medicine vary widely... some are introverts and others extroverts, some are verbose and others are men of few words that can diagnose like amazing machines.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

BA,
those descriptions are just a bit vague. For instance, each major research university offers a wide array of "Intro to Bio" courses, or Physics 1 & 2. Physics 1, say for a CSE/EE major would be different than the traditional algebra based Physics 1. How do you know which one corresponds with their requirements? I didn't even see any course descriptions. Same goes for Math, there is a Calculus for social science students, and a Calculus that the more traditional CSE/EE guys take.

We had this question as well in my day. There was the joke about "physics for poets" versus hard 100% engineering physics. In general, we as the engineers had to take the calculus intensive brand and escalate up to DiffEQ. The requirements are not strict in that the going to NYU and doing the premed physics or the engineering physics is acceptable.

The committees dont really have that much time to scrutinize whether "physics 103 -i.e physics for poets" is harder or easier than "Physics 253 - Engineering Physics" because the former doesnt say "Physics for poets next to it." Intra School and University the committees may know. SO if you go to Boston U and take the easier one their committee members may be familiar with that trick you pulled.

However, the blunt answer to your question is that all the Engineering requirements nearly satisfy their request 100% of the time except in the case of Bio courses that engineers may take (they should take the one the premeds take).

[Admin Khan]

'Physics for poets', that put an incredible huge smile on my face, haha!