Suicide attack targets foreign troops in Kabul

[Toramana]

You idiot, that video was made by an NGO who gave some two lack rupees to some guys to make this video. You have been exposed as a liar on this forum. You better take your lies some other place.

No---as a self-rightous Muslim and as God's chosen being, you should not resort to such lies...The flogging was done by Taleban exposed by Fouzia Minnallah the brave Pashtun lady...

[Soldat_Amir]

By the way, what is your own notion of democracy being a follower of Akhwani ideology and probably the most ardent backer of Taleban and other fanatics on this forum----?

No doubt, most of the Muslims admire and value democracy, religious tolerance, and liberal and secular values ---but not the fanatical religious ideological minority that want to establish a fascist theocratic state----

The memories of Taleban of whom you are the stauchest sympathizer and supporter here on this forum flogging women, burning girls schools, etc. are still alive in the minds of civilized folk the world over----So no use of this deception...

Most of Afghanistan knows who the Taliban are, it will be a matter of time, before their usual abuse of using Pashtuns to hide themselves, will be of no use, most Afghans know taliban are ISI stooges.

[Toramana]

Here is the video ArevaPasht...

Reaction of Ansar Abbasi about Swat girl flogging - YouTube

[emkhan]

No---as a self-rightous Muslim and as God's chosen being, you should not resort to such lies...The flogging was done by Taleban exposed by Fouzia Minnallah the brave Pashtun lady...

she was samar minallah and not fauzua minallah. You should gather some authentic info. Your source of information is very weak and flawed.
You better leave this forum please.
Thank you

[BarakzaiAbdali]

By the way, what is your own notios of democracy being a follower of Akhwani ideology and a backer of Taleban and other fanatics----?

No doubt, most of the Muslims admire and value democracy, religious tolerance, and liberal and secular values ---but not the fanatical religious ideological minority that want to establish a fascist theocratic state----

The memories of Taleban of whom you are the stauch sympathizer and supporter here flogging women, burning girls schools, etc. are still alive in the minds of civilized folk the world over----

Toramana, as I said before, I think when examining the historical record, whether it be in France, America, Britain etc. we have to be logical and evidence based.

When you make these comments you just show me that you are very ahistorical and that you have no comprehension on how societies reach an equilibrium.

I am not a scholar of governmental constructs. I know some basics which are that there are multiple ingredients that are necessary to propel a society towards becoming a power. For instance, Pakistan is democracy... but it doesnt seem to be working for them. China is has free'er markets now but is not a democracy and they are doing better than Pakistan (there are obviously other reasons for this as well, Im just making a point).

Logically speaking, the chances for radical change that could be unhealthy might be staved off in a democracy. For instance, in the US there is a raging debate every election cycle about abortion and the right to life. Due to the fact that it is a hot button issue and due to the fact that there is a rural versus city divide on this issue, movement on it has been rather slow. Healthcare is another example of this.

However, this sort of progressive democracy does not seem to be springing up in Afghanistan or Pakistan or Iraq now for that matter. In fact womens rights and progress in post war Iraq has become a discussion point for Code Pink.

Why I note that you are severely handicapped when viewing the natural order of things is that you ignore the history of democracy itself in the Western hemisphere.

American democracy is not 250 years old my friend... it actually started nearly a mellenia ago back in a field in Runny Meade in England when members of English Society forced King John to sign the Magna Carta.

THIS IS AN IMPORTANT POINT. It was not the French, the Germans, the Czech or any other power that came in and told John he must sign it. It was the British people that did it themselves.

By that same token, as I have stated repeatedly, you admire America and its achievements, as do I. However, you have not lived here and have not had a single course on American Civics or American History. The American Democracy was not forcibly implemented.

The first American experience in governance was theocratic.
"An additional 116 settlers were admitted to the general court as freemen in 1631, but most of the governing power, as well as the judicial power, remained with the council of assistants.[36] They also enacted a law specifying that only those men who "are members of some of the churches" in the colony were eligible to become freemen and gain the vote.[34] This restriction on the franchise would not be liberalized until after the English Restoration.[35] The process by which individuals became members of one of the colony's churches involved a detailed questioning by the church elders of their beliefs and religious experiences; as a result, only individuals whose religious views accorded with those of the church leadership were likely to become members, and gain the ability to vote in the colony. After a protest over the imposition of taxes by a meeting of the council of assistants, the general court ordered each town to send two representatives, known as deputies, to meet with the court to discuss matters of taxation"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massach...ony#Government

This American experience would go on to result in brutal repression of women:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_witch_trials

This experience was so horric that generations later, the descendent of America's Mullah Omar (in your estimation), Nathaniel Hawthorne, would go on to write novels such as the Scarlet Letter, that were considered his way of apologising for the radicalism and destructive path that his forefather took.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathaniel_Hawthorne

To this day, this topic is taught and discussed in American class rooms. The most famous play on the subject was Arthur Miller's The Crucible:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Crucible

Furthermore, in the confines of American democracy, this 400 year long experiment, only the last third of it has seen the women's suffrage movement's goals reach even 25% fruition:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's..._United_States

For that matter, the Black Man, despite being emancipated in the late 1800s only recently, under Kennedy truly gained equivalent rights on paper.

So what you do Toramana is you demonstrate a deep lack of appreciation for America's evolution and historical progress. You demonstrate an inability to understand how societies naturally and progressively evolve to reach their own center balance point.

Last time we discussed this same issue you rattled on about how this was all fine and well in a theoretical construct but that Afghanistan is surrounded by interventional powers (Iran, Pakistan, Tajikistan, Russia, China etc).

That doesnt mean anything, it merely proves my point. Ohio cannot stand alone despite its farming production... Kentucky cannot stand alone despite its Coal production... Texas truly cannot be independent due its location, despite its oil wealth. Despite the vast differences across the United States, they only prosper because they are United yet distinct.

By this same token, the reason powers intervene is because you and your parents decided that you would obey these constructs hoisted upon you by outside powers (i.e Russia and Britian) called Pakistan, Iran, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Tajikistan, istan istan istan.

So the reason they are able to intervene is that you folks have not derived a construction of law that allows Persian liberalism to stand alongside Deobandi fanatacism in the same land.

Yet the Americans, who are the by and large the most religious of the Western powers, have allowed the Southern Baptist Congressions to express a large degree of power over governance by not outlawing them... yet they also allow for the more liberal interpretations of Christianity. The joke in the states is that the South actually won the civil war because of how important their electoral votes are toward the presidency.

And so yes, powers are able to intervene in Afghanistan and disrupt the natural evolution of a people towards their greater destiny. But I am not talking in the confines of this Azmallian game you continue to support.
By your logic you are basically saying: So you have 4 choices of crap to eat... which do you prefer??? Well, then in that context, I have to look at which group of people truly represent the grass roots and rural areas of Afghanistan the most... i.e. the majority and decide that such a group would restart the natural evolution of a people toward what should have been.

"But it must be pointed out that the majority of Taliban foot soldiers are the products of Afghani Masjids, may they be inside Afghanistan or within Refugee camps."
- Kawun Kaker

http://www.institute-for-afghan-studies.org/AFGHAN%20CONFLICT/TALIBAN/intro_kakar.htm

"In reality, the traditional way of life in villages has changed little by Taliban's rule. The situation of Afghans in the countryside controlled by the Taliban has improved because of increased peace and security, giving them the opportunity to rebuild after two decades of war. But this security comes at a cost. Forced recruitment of young men to fight the ever bloody war of attrition against the Northern alliance has depleted the man-power from these rural centers. In the cities and urban centers, the more modern and liberal way of life conflicts sharply with that of the Taliban's social and religious values. In addition the Taliban have shown little understanding in accommodating and appreciating the basic needs of an urban population."

http://www.institute-for-afghan-studies.org/AFGHAN%20CONFLICT/TALIBAN/intro_kakar.htm

Basically Toramana, your game plan is perpetually delaying the birth of our own Pashtun Nathaniel Hawthorne... which is a shame.

[Toramana]

she was samar minallah and not fauzua minallah. You should gather some authentic info. Your source of information is very weak and flawed.
You better leave this forum please.
Thank you

Yes, she was Samar Minnalah---

[emkhan]

Most of Afghanistan knows who the Taliban are, it will be a matter of time, before their usual abuse of using Pashtuns to hide themselves, will be of no use, most Afghans know taliban are ISI stooges.

All the secular minded so called sold nationalists who take vote in the name of pukhtunwali and this and that are the stooges of America... They are well paid employees of American secret agencies working for their dajjali mission to be implemented. They are brainwashing people. They are trying to destroy our societies and our family system through their failed, corrupt and dark ideologies.
I am afraid you and some other on this forum are one of them.
Give up guys, give up

[Al Hanif]

Well, you will expect our Muslim brothers in the West,Zmarak,Al Hanif to praise a female suicide bomber, but the fact remains is, they would never permit their own sister or mother to do the same. When will the west realise, that these kind of people should be dealt with with the most inhumane way. Don't give them visa's or refugee status, let them hang about in Lahore guarding their masters gate.

As I said many times, its easy to praise a suicide bomber, but when you look into the facts and the way they are brainwashed, then you will realize reality, sad to see people praise the likes of Al Hanif and co, foreigners, non Pashtuns, praising the exploitation of women to blow themselves up.

Zmarak....Don't worry, soon Pakistan wont be able to shelter your buddies in the Taliban, they will meet their fate with a hell-fire missile and nobody will save them.

Terrible, I hope the innocent people killed are compensated by the government and revenge on the Taliban. Coward Taliban, using women to blow themselves up, People is this the kind of men you want to rule over Afghanistan? and its funny, how the likes of Zmarak and Al Hanif support such people while living in their cosy beds in the west, living on benefits and on the welfare, while innocent Afghans suffer, and now women are not spared too.

Deera Afsos khabara da!

i don't live on welfare, i'm still a student

but i'm pretty sure you do live on welfare... but eh, that's not your fault... how do you expect to find a job when you're a big bearded terrorist in London ?

i don't support the mushrik Pakistan government at all

i'm not a scholar to forbid or allow suicide bombings but since she did it, it must have been because she was desperate because of the crimes perpetrated by invaders and traitors like you so the least I can do is to salute her bravery and to tell her sacrifice will never be forgotten

the only coward here is you
why didin't you stayed in Waziristan the last time you went there and fought the Talibans to "save the world" instead of barking in front of your screen in your cardboard box in the middle of Londonistan ?

[emkhan]

i don't live on welfare, i'm still a student

but i'm pretty sure you do live on welfare... but eh, that's not your fault... how do you expect to find a job when you're a big bearded terrorist in London ?

i don't support the mushik Pakistan government at all

i'm not a scholar to forbid or allow suicide bombings but since she did it, it must have been because she was desperate because of the crimes perpetrated by invaders and traitors like you so the least I can do is to salute her bravery and to tell her sacrifice will never be forgotten

the only coward here is you
why didin't you stayed in Waziristan the last time you went there and fought the Talibans to "save the world" instead of barking in front of your screen in your cardboard box in the middle of Londonistan ?

Come on guy, the whole lot of 40 countries well equipped with the most advanced and the most sophisticated weaponry technology could not fight with taliban so how can you expect this guy would fight taliban lol.
dai kho raatakhtedalay dai marra. goru che kala apply kawi da assylem da paara.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

The data seems to support Hanif's conclusion:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/08/wo...t/08women.html

Muslim women, by and large, in the most powerful large sample polling done to date are not crying out for Western interventionalism or forced secularization.

"Still, a majority of the respondents did not think adopting Western values would help the Muslim world's political and economic progress."

In fact women, out of desperation are taking the lead in insurgency movements:

http://www.france24.com/en/20111029-...rs-state-media

[Toramana]

...Basically Toramana, your game plan is perpetually delaying the birth of our own Pashtun Nathaniel Hawthorne... which is a shame.

Kindly, don't disguise the pro-barbaric sympathy with such deceptions---trying to find historical parallel of Taleban in American political history---a barbaric lot mostly agents of the neighbouring countries cannot be compared with America founding fathers ---

Second, in history we don't re-invent the wheel--we rather draw on other people experiences and models as most of the modern states and societies have successfully done---

If re-inventing is necessary, why don't we start in Pukhtunkhwa and Afghanistan with donkeys, then make transition to donkey-carts, then to camel carts, and so on instead of making abrupt transition to modern mode of transporatation...?

There should be a limit to ridiculousness.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Kindly, don't disguise the pro-barbaric sympathy with such deceptions---trying to find historical parallel of Taleban in American political history---a barbaric lot mostly agents of the neighbouring countries cannot be compared with America founding fathers ---

Second, in history we don't re-invent the wheel--we rather draw on other people experiences and models as most of the modern states and societies have successfully done---

If re-inventing is necessary, why don't we start in Pukhtunkhwa and Afghanistan with donkeys, then make transition to donkey-carts, then to camel carts, and so on instead of making abrupt transition to modern mode of transporatation...?

There should be a limit to ridiculousness.

Governmental systems are entirely different than technology and its development. The development of societal thought is more akin to the growth of a human being. There is the infancy phase, the childhood phase, the young adult phase, middle age, the golden years, and then death.

What we have now conclusively seen in medicine, is that depriving a human being of the proper phase in infancy (not just medical but emotional) or stripping them of childhood, has devastating consequences for when they become physical adults.

By this same token, society maturity goes through phases, and like the development of a single individual, is highly dependent on a number of factors (socio economic, etc).

And regarding the donkey cart concept... that is the unfortunate issue with how you and your parents constructed the Pakistani system. Would you not say that your Pakistani democracy is a donkey cart?

I want to repeat that you have misconstrued me time and time again. You can hold me to this. If tomorrow, all of Afghanistan... or even a massive fraction of it wanted could provably be shown to want the positive and negative aspects of American life together, including secularism... or even if they wanted communism and decided they wanted to let Islam go by the way side, it would not trouble me my friend. I would be fine with the Afghans and the Pakistanis doing whatever they want. But as per the Kawun Kaker references (an anti Taliban historian), that is not at all what is going on. As per Scheuer, you are attempting to hoist an alien system onto a people that are not in tune with it.

You still have not dealt with the British court references under the ANP thread showing that just under 100 years ago, the British documentation concurs regarding the strict observance of mate gaurding behavior and Islamism of the Pashtun tribes.

Moreover, you are conflating two concepts which is very unscientific. You are insidiously inferring that the Pashtuns themselves are inventing the donkey and then the cart and then the donkey cart and then the Model T Ford and then the Porsche. But we know this is not the case... rather you are leaving out the fact that you expect the intervening powers to throw out the donkey and the cart and bring in the porsche. However, and this is true for any intervening power, Muslim, non Muslim alike... there is no gaurantee that the intervening power wants you to have the porsche at all if it means any possibility of a threat to their interests.

So once again, you killed the Pashtun Nathaniel Hawthorne.

Remember Toramana, whether Saudi goes Islamist or Christian or Jewish, or whether Europe goes Islamic does not bother me or motivate me in the least or trouble me at all. This is in reference to your comment about my sympathies. Because I live by the dictum in Islam that if all of mankind and jinns were to believe it doesnt benefit Allah in the least and if all of mankind and jinn were to reject, it doesnt harm Allah in the least.

However, as I have stated, your ideologies and experimentation on the Pashtun societies are akin to nazi eugenics (pushing for the unnatural) and are bound to result in radical and dangerous blow back down the road.

[KhyberKhan]

BarakzaiAbdali I love you for the sake of Allah.

[Toramana]

Governmental systems are entirely different than technology and its development. The development of societal thought is more akin to the growth of a human being. There is the infancy phase, the childhood phase, the young adult phase, middle age, the golden years, and then death.

Technological development and societal evolution go hand-in-hand with the social and administrative structures of a society reflecting the state of its technological development. The two things are not separate. The fatalists that believe death and life are from God would not like a modern hospital in the midset of their society---and are highly unlikely to be able to fly spacecrafts or embark on the aggrandized genome mapping projects for their belief of such endeavours to be the God's realm.

Your seem to have a kind of permanent disability to comprehend that we are not living in medieval age but rather are a part of a global system which is affecting us on daily basis not leaving us any option to live in insulation---and that lagging behind in technological development or efficiency of societal structures and system of administration and governance is putting us at a dis-advantaged position vis-a-vis the rest of the world nations.


The very concept of technological development nullifies your argument of starting from infancy. If we all nations of the world were living in medieval ages at the same level of technologcal and social development, your retrogressive "vision" could make perfect sense and could be materialized---But we know that the level of technological development we are witnessing today is putting immense pressure on individuals as well as societies to catch up with others rapidly in terms of societal and technological development to be able to compete and survive witth diginity.


This same reason made you immigrate to a post-modern state i.e., US and take a quantum leap in your own life in the sense of personal development, achievement, and gains. Had you not been pressured/motivated by the dynamics and compulsions of modern life, you could have stayed in the desoluteness of your village at Helmand or Chaman, study khulasa and monia, become a Mullah, and live like a parasite on alms from others. The same pressure brought about by technology is affecting every other member of society --That is why there is a need for rapid modernization of our society.

No modern state or society as I mentioned before ever reverted to a previous state of the stone age infancy as you argue and then progress in finite time to a more advanced state---or progress from its current state gradually through a stadard evolutionary path. All societies like to skip intermediate phases to become rapidly modernized. We know, humans draw from each other experiences when it comes to societal change and transformation and don't re-invent the wheel.

As for Pakistani donkey, Mr Barakzai of Afghan Royal Parentage, this donkey cart is still better than the Wahabi heaven you and your Mullah Omar want to build in Kanadahar.

[graveyardofempires]

Toramana's Donkeycart theory debunked