Freedom of Belief and Religion according to Islam

[graveyardofempires]

It's amazing how fast you accept lies and slander as truth. I have never glorified the 'invaders of iraq'. I think al arab is once again making an uniformed statement without first understanding the topic he is discussing.

now its on you to explain otherwise,and tell me what did he lie about?

[ozymandias]

now its on you to explain otherwise,and tell me what did he lie about?

He stated I 'glorified my criminal soldiers in iraq', and I have done no such thing.

[ozymandias]

I remember clearly that you said that your soldiers where doing good things in Iraq and that they were implementing so called democracy with success.

Agreeing that this had to be done is a far cry from 'glorifying' them -- and there is a huge difference between soldiers enforcing the UN declarations, and being 'criminals'. I made it very clear that I see a difference, and did not support the criminals.

You know this is provocation and not truth. The current Iraqi government is the most corrupt in the world and the Iraqi people want Islam not man-made laws. We are very religious people.

I remember clearly that you supported the war in Iraq. That is for me the same as supporting the thousands of war crimes commited in Iraq by your soldiers.

I'm sorry you can't see the difference between supporting the UN and supporting criminal acts by individuals. To explain this a different way, to help you understand, Bin Laden was a criminal. You saying I support the criminal acts in the Iraqi war because I support Human Rights, is like me saying you support criminal acts because you are Islamic. It's just silly.

Do you really wish for me to say why judaism and christiniaty is wrong?

I agree that they are wrong. It would be interesting to see what makes them wrong that does not also apply to Islam.

Maybe you should learn the history about the bible and by whom it was written. It has been written by several persons over long period of time. Judaism the same.

No disagreement here. I have no problem with that statement. What's your point? The Book of Mormon has a single author. Does that make it true?

There are many opposites in christianity (Old and new testament) and the Torah. You can not find such thing in the Holy Quran.

I can find scientific falsehoods in both books. I can find wishy-washy statements in both books. Heck, look at this very thread. Some are claiming the koran supports religious freedom, and others are saying the punishment for apostasy is death. what do you mean, we can't find opposing statements in the koran?

[graveyardofempires]

I agree that the Abrahamic religions have borrowed a lot from paganism, and co-opted most of the holidays.


I didnt say that so i dont knwo which part you agree.

the religion of abraham was islam and yes as it is called nowadays abrahamic religion still i didnt say islam borrowd anything from paganisma ,but i would say nice try by you.

I'm amazed that people still recommend Naik. He is an ignorant fool, and consistently is wrong, and illogical. Watch a video about him on evolution sometime -- his only argument against evolution is he doesn't speak English very well.
see thats your problem you call a knowledgeable man a fool cuz he doesnt agree with you and your pre picture.
i didnt say watch his video about evolution i said watch his video abotu islam and christianity but hey atheists are always the same.
He does speak english well if you can see through your prejudice glasses and forget about his accent for a minute.


Well, we all know why they are not converting *away*, since this *is* a thread on the lack of freedom of religion for Muslims. That said, I have seen the reasons many gave for converting, and most of them never really understood their original faith, anyway.

well they have their testimonies and they were more fanatic than you are.
so i dont know ahy i should take what you say serious and not them.

[graveyardofempires]

He stated I 'glorified my criminal soldiers in iraq', and I have done no such thing.

by criminals he means all the soldiers involved in the occuaption of his country ,not just the ones doing the torture in abu ghraib.

bro you really need to be honest and dont try to twist words and sneak through backdoor.

[al-arab]

Ozymandias:

So you admit to saying that you are a supporter of the Iraqi war and thus the prescence of the invadors? If you say otherwise know I will find the thread were we last discussed the Iraqi war.

I like how you try to potray yourself as the supporter of UN laws.

Where were you when your government lied about Saddams supposed chemical weapons or contacts with Al-Qaeda?

Are you even aware of the fact that the UN did NOT agree on the Iraq war and that according to international laws the war was illegal?

Do you not understand that invadors who have invaded a country without the international societies backing are nearly always regarded as criminals? Especially when they, as the americans have proven, have commited horrible crimes in Iraq?

Why do you not take a look at the two threads consisting of american Iraqi war veterans who tell how they and many, many others killed civilians for fun? How bad the strategy was? How the soldiers did not know what they did in Iraq?

I had long discussions with you about democracy and how long the western world struggled with dictatorship before they implemented democracy. I also explained to you that we Muslims regard man-made laws differently than secularists like you?

I fell this is pointless debate because unlike you my country was illegaly invaded by your country. This has done tremmedous harm for us and the Muslim and Arab world. For example your invasion has meant that the Iranians have gained control of Southern Iraq and are exposing their Shia Islam and trying to interfere in a Arab country as Iraq.

But well we all know why you invaded Iraq. (Oil, Iraq importance in the Middle East and strategic place, Saddam Hussein (one of the few leaders who were not a puppet of usa nor their allies)

Proving what makes Christianity and Judaism wrong in comparison with Islam would require a lot of time and a great understanding of Islam. As you do not have the latter it would be pointless as you are a staunch atheist according to yourself.

But if I get the required time I would gladly tell you the basics. If you want a complex discussion who would have needed to study Arabic (Quranic Arabic) and a lot of other aspects to fully understand the word of Allah.

[ozymandias]

Ozymandias:

So you admit to saying that you are a supporter of the Iraqi war and thus the prescence of the invadors? If you say otherwise know I will find the thread were we last discussed the Iraqi war.

I am saying that I do not glorify those that had to go to war. I am saying that not every soldier was a criminal. I am saying that given the information that *started* the war, that war was required to prevent a despot from abusing weapons of mass destruction. I am saying that the laws of Iraq violated UN declarations, and needed to be rectified to guarantee the basic rights of it's citizens, as the dictators were unwilling to change otherwise.

It was a horrible war, and should have been avoided, and a better solution was desirable, especially after it was found out he did not have WMD.

I like how you try to potray yourself as the supporter of UN laws.

Thank you. It's the least decent humans can do.

Where were you when your government lied about Saddams supposed chemical weapons or contacts with Al-Qaeda?

Watching the news. It's debatable that the government 'lied', as many of the inspectors and studies indicated that the weapons existed. It is not a lie to be wrong, if you are mistaken.

Are you even aware of the fact that the UN did NOT agree on the Iraq war and that according to international laws the war was illegal?

You're kidding right?

Do you not understand that invadors who have invaded a country without the international societies backing are nearly always regarded as criminals? Especially when they, as the americans have proven, have commited horrible crimes in Iraq?

When was the entire military complex found guilty of these crimes?

Why do you not take a look at the two threads consisting of american Iraqi war veterans who tell how they and many, many others killed civilians for fun? How bad the strategy was? How the soldiers did not know what they did in Iraq?

I had long discussions with you about democracy and how long the western world struggled with dictatorship before they implemented democracy. I also explained to you that we Muslims regard man-made laws differently than secularists like you?

I fell this is pointless debate because unlike you my country was illegaly invaded by your country. This has done tremmedous harm for us and the Muslim and Arab world. For example your invasion has meant that the Iranians have gained control of Southern Iraq and are exposing their Shia Islam and trying to interfere in a Arab country as Iraq.

But well we all know why you invaded Iraq. (Oil, Iraq importance in the Middle East and strategic place, Saddam Hussein (one of the few leaders who were not a puppet of usa nor their allies)

We are well aware that you feel this is true.

Proving what makes Christianity and Judaism wrong in comparison with Islam would require a lot of time and a great understanding of Islam. As you do not have the latter it would be pointless as you are a staunch atheist according to yourself.

Feel free to educate me. Unlike you, I am willing to research and look into topics that I feel are wrong. I don't say there is no point in understanding them.

But if I get the required time I would gladly tell you the basics. If you want a complex discussion who would have needed to study Arabic (Quranic Arabic) and a lot of other aspects to fully understand the word of Allah.

Feel free to try and educate me. I will make the time to read and reply to those posts.

[ozymandias]

I didnt say that so i dont knwo which part you agree.

You said that Judiasm and Christianity borrowed a lot from paganism, which is what I agreed with.

the religion of abraham was islam

Not true. This is a retroactive editing of history.

and yes as it is called nowadays abrahamic religion still i didnt say islam borrowd anything from paganisma ,but i would say nice try by you.

All the religions stemming from the judiasm of Abraham are considered "Abrahamic religions" -- it's the actual name of the category of religions. Since Abraham's religion was based on paganistic beliefs, any religion that stems from that includes basis as well.

see thats your problem you call a knowledgeable man a fool cuz he doesnt agree with you and your pre picture.

That has nothing to do with it. The fact remains that he *is* a fool. The fact that it is called the theory of evolution is not proof it is not true, it is proof that he doesn't understand what the word means in a scientific context, and is unwilling to learn.

i didnt say watch his video about evolution i said watch his video abotu islam and christianity but hey atheists are always the same.

I have seen enough videos from him, and they are all poorly done, and based on flawed arguments and illogical statements, so I stopped wasting time on him.

He does speak english well if you can see through your prejudice glasses and forget about his accent for a minute.

I disagree. The statements he makes about the theory of evolution is proof of that. It has nothing to do with his accent, and everything to do with his illogical statements, and abuse of the definitions of words.

well they have their testimonies and they were more fanatic than you are.

I'm not a fanatic.

so i dont know ahy i should take what you say serious and not them.

You should only take me serious if you wish to understand my view of the world. You are welcome to ignore me, and those like me if you want.

[graveyardofempires]

You said that Judiasm and Christianity borrowed a lot from paganism, which is what I agreed with.

Islam is also Abrahamic religion

Not true. This is a retroactive editing of history.
NO its not its the TRUTH which you hate to hear,the term christin and jew was introduced later and thats when the paganism got into it no twith because of abraham.


All the religions stemming from the judiasm of Abraham are considered "Abrahamic religions" -- it's the actual name of the category of religions. Since Abraham's religion was based on paganistic beliefs, any religion that stems from that includes basis as well.
wrong

people mix it with paganism at the time of oppression.
for example the jews did it at babylon when they werent allowd to practice their religionand christianity was created by the Romans after the persecuted many followers of christ and made their religion incorporated with paganism.


That has nothing to do with it. The fact remains that he *is* a fool. The fact that it is called the theory of evolution is not proof it is not true, it is proof that he doesn't understand what the word means in a scientific context, and is unwilling to learn.
First of all ,theory of evolution is a pack of lies created by racists to feel superior,thats why the most evolve species are considered white people.
Zakir Naik is a million times more knowledgeable than you are and you must show respect or do you feel threatend by him exposing the theory of evolution?How about Harun Yahya,guess now you are going to attack him as well,typical atheist evolutionist tactic.



I have seen enough videos from him, and they are all poorly done, and based on flawed arguments and illogical statements, so I stopped wasting time on him.

or you couldnt take the truth,and how about all those atheist statements and christians and jews who are muslism now?



I disagree. The statements he makes about the theory of evolution is proof of that. It has nothing to do with his accent, and everything to do with his illogical statements, and abuse of the definitions of words.
not really,sicne the theory of evolution is not a fact and a theory which can never be true,even though they teach it at schools in europe.If you object to it they simply will say ,its complix you wouldnt understand it,JUS BELIEVE IT BLINDLY as we say.


I'm not a fanatic.

you are fanatically opposing anything which doesnt suite your little world view and try to avoid the facts and evidence cuz you were taught differently.


You should only take me serious if you wish to understand my view of the world. You are welcome to ignore me, and those like me if you want.

I understand your view of the world and thats why i reject a view of the world where eugenics/population reduction is seen as something totally normal and where the white man is the most evolved among the people.
come on now tell me that im wrong and it is much more complex and i dont understand evolution.

[ozymandias]

Islam is also Abrahamic religion

Yes, yes it is. Where is the confusion?

NO its not its the TRUTH which you hate to hear,the term christin and jew was introduced later and thats when the paganism got into it no twith because of abraham.

You can label it 'Truth' with a capital T all you want, but until you present archaeological or historical evidence, it's not fact.

wrong

people mix it with paganism at the time of oppression.
for example the jews did it at babylon when they werent allowd to practice their religionand christianity was created by the Romans after the persecuted many followers of christ and made their religion incorporated with paganism.

Not true. The Torah, and OT both clearly show that they are a part of a polytheistic faith redacted into a monotheistic faith. Many events, and 'miracles' are simply plagiarized from older pagan religions.

First of all ,theory of evolution is a pack of lies created by racists to feel superior,thats why the most evolve species are considered white people.

So now you are making up opinions and claiming that they are proof evolution is wrong? Because you don't agree with the fake interpretation of evolution you made up it is wrong?

Zakir Naik is a million times more knowledgeable than you are and you must show respect

When he apologizes for his gross misuse of the term evolution, we might make progress, until then, he is just a fool.

or do you feel threatend by him exposing the theory of evolution?

He only exposed his ignorance. His proof that evolution is not fact is that it is called a 'theory' -- that is not proof of anything but his inability to understand what a 'theory' is in science.

How about Harun Yahya,guess now you are going to attack him as well,typical atheist evolutionist tactic.

Actually, I am unfamiliar with this person, so I have no comments to make.

or you couldnt take the truth,and how about all those atheist statements and christians and jews who are muslism now?

What about them? I already pointed out that many of them did not even understand atheism -- like that video of Naik 'converting' someone from atheism by asking stupid, easily answered questions.

What about all the converts away from Islam? Unfortunately, while there is a huge pressure to pretend to be Muslim, there is also a huge pressure not to admit to leaving the faith, so you cannot accurately count the defectors from the faith.

Interesting that despite the risk in leaving the faith, many still do, though.

not really,sicne the theory of evolution is not a fact

Actually, it is.

and a theory which can never be true,

Despite the fact that it is true....

even though they teach it at schools in europe.If you object to it they simply will say ,its complix you wouldnt understand it,JUS BELIEVE IT BLINDLY as we say.

I have never heard, nor seen a science teacher do that. Any that do should be fired, since it is their job to teach it.

you are fanatically opposing anything which doesnt suite your little world view and try to avoid the facts and evidence cuz you were taught differently.

Actually, no. I just oppose illogical statements made with no evidence. It may be because I was taught that way -- but it makes it no less true.

I understand your view of the world and thats why i reject a view of the world where eugenics/population reduction is seen as something totally normal

So do I. I also oppose the death penalty for any crime. What's your point?

and where the white man is the most evolved among the people.

I also agree with this statement. Interesting that you made it up....

come on now tell me that im wrong and it is much more complex and i dont understand evolution.

Actually, it appears you don't understand evolution. The white man is no more or less evolved than any other race, nor is evolution too complex to teach or understand. It's fairly easily understood. First off, you are making the same mistake Naik is -- the word 'theory' does not mean less true than a fact, or law. It is just a different term used.

[graveyardofempires]

^
you just love to argue for the sake of it and i have no time to waste.

anyway check Harun Yahya on youtube.

[al-arab]

I am saying that I do not glorify those that had to go to war. I am saying that not every soldier was a criminal. I am saying that given the information that *started* the war, that war was required to prevent a despot from abusing weapons of mass destruction. I am saying that the laws of Iraq violated UN declarations, and needed to be rectified to guarantee the basic rights of it's citizens, as the dictators were unwilling to change otherwise.

It was a horrible war, and should have been avoided, and a better solution was desirable, especially after it was found out he did not have WMD.



Thank you. It's the least decent humans can do.

Watching the news. It's debatable that the government 'lied', as many of the inspectors and studies indicated that the weapons existed. It is not a lie to be wrong, if you are mistaken.

You're kidding right?

When was the entire military complex found guilty of these crimes?

We are well aware that you feel this is true.

Feel free to educate me. Unlike you, I am willing to research and look into topics that I feel are wrong. I don't say there is no point in understanding them.

Feel free to try and educate me. I will make the time to read and reply to those posts.

´
I think I will just end this discussion before I say something that is not appropriate here.

I can only say that I feel sorry for your ignorance.

The UN declared the war illegal and now you are claiming that your country are not breaking any laws. Shameless, absolutely shameless.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-10770239

You are deliberately provoking about such sensitive matters and I will not allow that even though you are clearly ignorant.

Try and take a look at the Wikileaks published about the Iraq War. They obtained secret files from your army intelligences on reports of casualties, torture, mass killings etc.

May people of your kind be cursed by Almighty Allah if you do not regret your views/actions from the bottom of your heart.

I will post the documentary brother Graveyardofempires posted in the Pashtun category. I will post it in the political forum. I do not expect you to be able to answer it or say any other thing that your normal nonsense that is packed in "pleasant" but empty words.

[ozymandias]

´
I think I will just end this discussion before I say something that is not appropriate here.

I can only say that I feel sorry for your ignorance.

Not as sorry as I feel about you, and yours.

The UN declared the war illegal and now you are claiming that your country are not breaking any laws. Shameless, absolutely shameless.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-10770239

Care to find an article to back that claim up? The article you linked was *not* a formal UN declaration, but the opinion of a retired inspector, and stated that the UN *DID* pass resolutions justifying the war. This single person does not speak for the UN, nor does he overrule declarations and resolutions with his mere opinion.

You are deliberately provoking about such sensitive matters and I will not allow that even though you are clearly ignorant.

I'm not deliberately provoking anything. You are the one twisting words, and lying about my opinions on matters. You are the one trying to cause issues here.

Try and take a look at the Wikileaks published about the Iraq War. They obtained secret files from your army intelligences on reports of casualties, torture, mass killings etc.

Funny little fact you are overlooking -- the wikileaks material came out *AFTER* the war started. They have nothing to do with the facts presented to the American public before the war to justify it to the people.

May people of your kind be cursed by Almighty Allah if you do not regret your views/actions from the bottom of your heart.

Good thing most Americans don't believe in your god, then. Those that believe in a god believe in a more forgiving one, that is able to understand honest mistakes.

I will post the documentary brother Graveyardofempires posted in the Pashtun category. I will post it in the political forum. I do not expect you to be able to answer it or say any other thing that your normal nonsense that is packed in "pleasant" but empty words.

Sorry you are unable to understand my comments any better than that. We can work on your understanding of the English language when you try and teach me about Islam.

[Afghanistan2010]

Disproving Evolution in Less Than 3 Minutes - YouTube

brother graveyardOE he ( ozy) has no reply to this.

[ozymandias]

Disproving Evolution in Less Than 3 Minutes - YouTube

brother graveyardOE he ( ozy) has no reply to this.

You are right -- I have no answer, because I have never seen that video before. I will watch it as soon as I am able and I will address it at that time.

Why would you think this video is any better than any of the other 'evidence' you have provided that was disproven already?