Freedom of Belief and Religion according to Islam

[Al Hanif]

[/B]HAHAHAH![/COLOR]
As a non-muslim, I often hear that apostasy in Islam is punished by death -- and the laws of several Islamic countries seem to follow this. Could you explain why people would have that view of Islam, if Islam is tolerant, and allows the freedom of religion?

In an Islamic state.

Non-Muslims (Christians, Jews) are allowed to change their religion, they can practise their religion freely. If a non-muslim sodomizes a non-muslim, it is not our business, as long as they don't do it in public. We will not punish them, they have their own laws and their own courts.

The only thing they have to do is paying a special tax (in exchange they don't have to pay the muslim tax) but they are under our protection. It is our duty to protect them.

Muslims, on the other hand, face severe punishments for apostasy : from exile to death. And if a muslim practicises fornication, he will be lashed 100 times. The same thing does not apply for non-muslims.

The reason why apostasy is punished is because it is viewed as an act of betrayal towards the community and as you know, in all societies, in all times, treason has be punished with the most severe punishment.

[ozymandias]

In an Islamic state.

Non-Muslims (Christians, Jews) are allowed to change their religion, they can practise their religion freely. If a non-muslim sodomizes a non-muslim, it is not our business, as long as they don't do it in public. We will not punish them, they have their own laws and their own courts.

The only thing they have to do is paying a special tax (in exchange they don't have to pay the muslim tax) but they are under our protection. It is our duty to protect them.

Muslims, on the other hand, face severe punishments for apostasy : from exile to death. And if a muslim practicises fornication, he will be lashed 100 times. The same thing does not apply for non-muslims.

So where is this supposed freedom of religion you *just* claimed Islam has?

The reason why apostasy is punished is because it is viewed as an act of betrayal towards the community and as you know, in all societies, in all times, treason has be punished with the most severe punishment.

Ah, so there is no freedom of religion then, at least not fully. I get it. Thank you for clarifying.

[Al Hanif]

So where is this supposed freedom of religion you *just* claimed Islam has?.

freedom of religion for the non-believers

no freedom of religion for the muslims

Ah, so there is no freedom of religion then, at least not fully. I get it. Thank you for clarifying.

You are welcome, dear Dawkinist

[ozymandias]

freedom of religion for the non-believers

But you *just* stated that this is not true.

no freedom of religion for the muslims

That's fine. If they choose to follow your rules, that's their choice. But what about freedom of religion for former Muslims?

You are welcome, dear Dawkinist

Who is a Dawkinist?

[al-arab]

So where is this supposed freedom of religion you *just* claimed Islam has?



Ah, so there is no freedom of religion then, at least not fully. I get it. Thank you for clarifying.

Do you have difficulties with understanding your native language?

Where is the injustice exactly from a non-Muslim point of view?

Or do you just prefer burning at the stake which was the Christian solution?

Or the so called Western model where Muslims de jure have the same rights to practice their religions but de facto are not allowed to built Mosques or give their children an Islamic upbringing? Italy being a clear example of that as several other European countries who do not allow/have not built any mosques even though they have a significant Muslim minority?

[Al Hanif]

But you *just* stated that this is not true.

English, fornicator of matriarchs, are you fluent in it ?

freedom of religion for the non-believers

no freedom of religion for the muslims

I think I can't be clearer.

That's fine. If they choose to follow your rules, that's their choice. But what about freedom of religion for former Muslims?

[B][COLOR="Blue"]
Former muslims will be granted the right to exile from muslim territory in times of peace.
The right to be beheaded in public places in times of war.

Who is a Dawkinist?

Someone who accepts Richard as his Lord and Saviour.

[Wahe Guru]

Maybe you should do yourself a favor and remove your head from your ass and turn off your Fow channel and read a little about Islam, Islamic law (Sharia) and Islamic history just to name a few areas in order to understand Islam as it should be.

Understanding and studying Islam is something that acquires years of extensive study.

You certainly are not qualified to understand Islamic juristiction in the right contect.

Apart from that your redneck country (without any history) executed juvenile people until a few years ago.

And Al-Hanif is completely right about Islam being a much stronger force than anything man-made.

I wondered how many other religions and, how often, you have studied apart from Islam?

[Insaaf_انصاف]

All parts of the Qur'an are good.
Indeed he is a stupid Quranist who fails at life.


It is explained in the Quran itself that there are verses which abrogates other verses. There are Meccan verses and Medinan verses. Some verses are for Dar Al Islam, others are for Dar Al Kufr.


[COLOR="Blue"]They are forced to pay a special tax but









they are not forced to pay zakat in exchange. They have the right to practise their religion freely. Islam was the most toleant religion before secularism. But I agree that secularism is more liberal than Islam and this is why Islam is superior.
[/

kill them all, Allah SWT will recognize his own

Kill them all ? You are dangerous dude :S

[Al Hanif]

Kill them all ? You are dangerous dude :S

voyons voyons voyons

tu ne connais pas le proverbe : tuez les tous, dieu reconnaîtra les siens ?

[al-arab]

I wondered how many other religions and, how often, you have studied apart from Islam?

There is no need to study other religions because the only truth and right path in the earthly life is Islam.

Apart from that I have enough knowledge about Christianity and Judaism to know how they treated non-Christians and still do in some European countries.

Moreover my knowledge about Christianity/Judaism probably extends ozymandias knowledge.

Wazir-Warrior:

Instead of writing pointless PM's to me asking about how my wife look and other shameless questions you should be able to dare to ask them in public.

I found you out long time ago. You are a troll and probably one of the many double profiles that appeared in November. I should publish your messages to me and my replies.

[al-arab]

What is this kind of shameless messages you would not dare to say in front of me?

Why are you trolling?

[graveyardofempires]

Al arab bro this guy has mutiple accounts and is not a pashtun or muslim.
you should ask the admin to take action,but you are an arab so i dont know if they will take action or not.

[al-arab]

Al arab bro this guy has mutiple accounts and is not a pashtun or muslim.
you should ask the admin to take action,but you are an arab so i dont know if they will take action or not.

Brother, that is my suspicion as well. But since he does not dare to answer me I want him to learn a lesson about behaviour even if he is trolling.

I have contacted brother thor-khan who for my part has been a rightous moderator here and asked him to see if that wazir_warrior is a troll as I suspect.

Normally I would not bother with such nonsense but since he does not know limits and do not answer there is nothing else to do other than see if he in fact is a troll.

[Bigmo]

Bigmo, this is the problem, you only take the favorable and good parts out of the Quran and ignore the rest.

I could quote many parts of the Quran that would contradict what you have just posted but it will land me in trouble with the authorities here.

Under an Islamic state, there is no such thing as a minority religion. Religions beside Islam, are prohibited to practice in public or build their places of worship. They are forced to pay a separate tax called Jizya.

Now, we are kind and historically tolerant Pashtun society, how are we going to progress with such backward laws.

We have sikhs, hindus, buddists, pagans, communists,secularists, liberal muslims, shia muslims all living in our region, do you seriously think we are going to succeed living under middle age Arabia laws?

You are looking at a never ending civil war in our region.

16:82 But if they turn away from you, your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message

4:79-80 Say:'Whatever good betides you is from God and whatever evil betides you is from your own self and that We have sent you to mankind only as a messenger and all sufficing is God as witness. Whoso obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys God. And for those who turn away, We have not sent you as a keeper."

17:53-54 And tell my servants that they should speak in a most kindly manner. Verily, Satan is always ready to stir up discord between men; for verily; Satan is mans foe .... Hence, We have not sent you with power to determine their Faith

24.54. Say: "Obey God, and obey the Messenger. but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message).

88:21 22; And so, exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe.

42:6 48 And whoso takes for patrons others besides God, over them does God keep a watch. Mark, you are not a keeper over them. But if they turn aside from you (do not get disheartened), for We have not sent you to be a keeper over them; your task is but to preach

64:12 Obey God then and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away (no blame shall attach to our Messenger), for the duty of Our Messenger is just to deliver the message.

28.55-56 And when they hear vain talk, they turn away therefrom and say: "To us our deeds, and to you yours; peace be to you: we seek not the ignorant," It is true thou wilt not be able to guide whom thou lovest; but God guides those whom He will and He knows best those who receive guidance

As we can clearly see, many of the verses that talks about obeying the prophet also emphasises the prophet's limited authority, something that the Islamic sects do not recognize. The ruler to them has the authoirty to punish people for what they consider sins like drinking alcohol, eating pork, not fasting Ramadan, watching pornos etc.

The Koran meanwhile focuses on crimes against another like stealing, killing, slandering of women falsely and oppression. It gave the believers the right to fight against those who fight them but not to transgress. It also gave people the right to defend themsleves against evictions from their lands. There is no talk about punishing people for something that does not concerning somebody else's right.

Adultery is the only place where the Koran diverted from this due to the fact that a adultery affects another party. But even then it placed strict standards on that but was lenient when it came to punishing slanders of women. Adultery needs four witnesses but the slander can get punished just from opening his mouth without four witnesses. Its clear that the verse made it very difficult to impliment on adultery but very easy to impliment on the slanderer. Further reading of the verse about the Zani and Zania shows us that the issue came up concerning slandering of one of the porphet's wife presumably. But adultery still affects another party as its a breaking of an oath between a man and a woman and is an act of betrayal.

The Koran can not order the porphet to punish people for sins, that God's job. The Koran gave people the right and freedom to disbelieve let alone sin. Plus how the Koran understands sins is very different than how the sects understand sins.

In the end the sects had no choice but to abrogate many of these verses, usually invoking the "sword verse". They claim that many of these verses that gave the prophet limited authority(over those who chose to disobey him) has been abrogated by verse 9-5 or verse 9-29.

However these verses were about the wars with the pagans, and verse 9-13 and many other verses makes it clear who instigated these battles and why. The Jizya verse (9-29) also was claimed by the sects to be a tax to be paid by non Muslims in an Islamic state for protection. However Jizya never came concerning the Medina community where the prophet and his followers had a community. And only came upon the believers entering of Mecca. Jizya could have easily been compensation for the loss of property and homes that the believers suffered after being forced into exile.The Koran forbade prophets from seeking any form of reward. They can however accept charity on behalf of the believers.

But the Sunnah claimed otherwise. In it the prophet was ordered to fight the people till they acknowledge monotheism and also in it the prophet ordered the execution of those who apostated. Thats why they abrogated many of the verses that limited his authority. Then they simply transfered that authority for the Muslim ruler by default. The Ridda war story about Abu Bakr is a case study of this. In that story Abu Bakr apparently fought people for not paying Zakat. Now the authority was transfered from God to the prophet to one of his companions. This made it very easy to then transfer that authority to the ruler. This is why you see places where Shariah law is implimented filled with such concepts like searching cars for alcohol or flogging people for watching pornos or not wearing proper attire.None of this should concern anyone but it has become a punishable sin. God only punishes those who did not get caiught and punished in this world. The sects claim that once punished the sin falls away and dissapears. You will not find such a concept in the Koran. There God punishes in a million ways and does not need humans to punish for him. I think the sects introduced this conc3ept to make people more accepting of this by making them think its better for them since God's punishment is more severe. They also introduced stoning the adulterer by claiming the Zina verse in the Koran is concerning fornification and not adultery. They claimed that the verse about stoning was lost and is not included in the Koran but the ruling remains.

This of course violated not only the freedom aspect of the Koran but also an eye for an eye and a life for a life. In the Koran, any punishment must be recipricol and proportionate to the crime and it also must be targeted towards the actual perpetraters of the crime and not someone else associated to the criminal as the case with tribal laws that simply targets anyone from that tribe. They broke this by lower the bar for executions. Some Sunni scholars also gave the authority to execute homosexuals and enslave female prisoners and execute male prisoners. Something the Koran forbade. The Koran gave two options for prisoners, either freedom or ransom of some sort. They gave this authority to the ruler. This is all very sad as the taking of someones life is no easy matter in the Koran. God should take life and not humans, but if a person takes a life then he lost his right to live, but even then the Koran gave exile from the community as another option for murder esepcially if the person shows repentance. So an eye for an eye and a tooth for tooth somehow ended up being an eye for an eye lash and a tooth for a jaw.

To be fair the Sunni orthodoxy rarely practiced some of these laws. We know of no time in history where adulterers were stoned to death. Apostasy was rarely practiced, unlike the Christians in Europe that practiced these laws left and right. So the Sunni jurist knew that some of these laws could be controversial. There is a rumor about Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahhab the founder or rather the revivalist of Salafism (some call it wahhabism) stoned a women to death. This was the only time in Islamic history that we heard such a thing.

Its very unfortunant the current Islamist in Iran and Sudan and the Salafis in generally never understood why these laws were controversial. But in doing so they exposed many aspect of the sects that people were not aware of. The Sufis provided a convenient cover as they shunned legalism. But even the clerics understood that these laws were controversial. Its not easy in Islam to execute outside of murder. But this wise tradition was broken. Thats very unfortunant as now we see the culture of death has spread among Muslims till Islam became synonymous with violence and killing. Once you lower the bar it spirals out of control.

One thing is crystal clear from all this. The Koran's take on human authority and freedom is RADICALLY different than how the sects understand it. Therefore the biggest difference between a Koranic state and a Sunni or Shia state will come in the form of the state's authority over the masses. It is this, more than anything else, that seperates the Koran from the Sunnah. Thats why the Abbasids championed the Sunnah over the Mutazilites. The Mutaziltes couldn't find the ink inthe Koran to give them such draconian authority. The sects did that by first bringing the divine authority from God to prophet, then propet to Caliph (companions) and now that authority is in Omar Al Bashir, Khamenei, Mullah Omar and Al Saud. And thats very sad.

[ozymandias]

Do you have difficulties with understanding your native language?

Nope.

Where is the injustice exactly from a non-Muslim point of view?

The fact that there is no freedom of religion. "Stay a muslim, or die" is not freedom of religion.

Or do you just prefer burning at the stake which was the Christian solution?

Nope -- and that's not freedom of religion, either.

Or the so called Western model where Muslims de jure have the same rights to practice their religions but de facto are not allowed to built Mosques or give their children an Islamic upbringing? Italy being a clear example of that as several other European countries who do not allow/have not built any mosques even though they have a significant Muslim minority?

I prefer actual religious freedom, where you have the right to choose your own religion, and how you practice it, as long as you harm no one but yourself.