Problem with Islam?

[tor_khan]

Salaam u Alaikum Gentlemen and Ladies of the Forum,

Forgive me for the length of this post, but a couple of points in response to the points raised in this thread. Mostly, discussed here are house reminders:

1. Responses to Posts that are Hostile to Islam and Muslims
2. The Role of Moderator

Responses to Posts that are Hostile

Mahzala made a very eloquent response to concerns being raised over those who misuse this space to attack Islam. She rightly points out that there is a need for some of us to dispel doubt through a process of being able to ask genuine questions to fill a knowledge gap. That is a right.

However, there is a thin line between exploring thought and misusing the space as a Member of the Forum to deliberate an attack. That is wrong.

Individually, we have the right to offer a rebuttal, a sensible response and a counter argument to deliberate misinformation. If that is not appropriate or possible, the procedures are simple. If you see an attack on Islam, please report it to the Moderators. Our http://www.pashtunforums.com/religio...-conduct-3300/ notice states clearly that "The PashtunForums community should be a safe place for all members and guests and there should be no threats of harm, ridicule and misconduct that brings Islam and our community into disrepute." Many people join the Forum without reading the Forum Conduct or House Rules and thus may not be aware of the safeguards built in.

If things slip it is because we are human, but clearly attacks are not allowed. They are a breach of what this Forum stands for. Collectively as Muslims we have the duty to ensure that Islam is well represented and the right to raise a voice against those who seek to malign.

It is unfortunate that we do have members of our wider faith community who have behaved inappropriately and then hidden behind Islam. We know the damage that this does to people's impression of Islam. This fuels, the anti-Islam sentiment and polarises opinion. We have witnessed it several times here on this forum.

The Role of the Moderator

Reading back over some of the posts in this thread, it is clear that sometimes the Moderators are seen as an easy target. The Moderators are Members of the Forum. The rules apply to us, so this is not a Power Trip. There is a certain guardianship that is entrusted to the Moderators, but even this works with Member cooperation, so ultimately, I look upon our responsibilities a little differently. We all have the ability to back-edit our own posts, so collectively WE ALL MODERATE.

When we come across a post that challenges, we have the first option of offering a counter opinion. However, if we see wrong, and we cannot offer a response then a we can report posts in the usual manner. The Moderators are able to review and have the facility to edit offending posts, and issue infractions where posts grossly violate board rules. There are days when the Moderator Team is left very busy and has to manage large numbers of posts that fall short of the standards expected. Much of this silent 'tidying up' happens in the background, whilst the board carries on.

Another aspect of the Moderator Role is managing the disputes that break out between personalities on the forum. There are genuine instances of bad manners - not ideal Islamic conduct, I should add.

I should point out that protracted disputes with individual Moderators is a technically a breach of House Rules and certainly the public space is not the area for Show Trials or lynching opportunities. Again, it's about good manners and conduct that accords with our Islamic etiquette and Pashtoon Culture.

Most members here greatly respect and love Islam. Yes there are individuals who make it difficult for the others, but there is much for us all to learn from our general conduct. Ultimately that's where it all starts.

[Manzareh]

Thanks Shlomby boy.. iv just worked out how to use the report button

[*Mahzala*]

Manzareh, when Shlombay goes around thanking people in his private spaces, we do not know his intentions, and neither can we, you, Shlombay or myself, acquaint ourselves with people at the first instance. If he has said anything of the sort to either of those members you mentioned about their contributions, than I am more than sure that it was solely for their contributions in the many areas of this forum, excluding the religion sub forum, such as political topics, education and the likes. In saying that, I am not entertaining, nor do I welcome, or accept on a personal and professional (this forum) level any sort of ridiculing of the Islamic beliefs and its followers.

Sheikh Sulaiman Moola once wisely said: "Islam has its own beauty. If we want to do anything, it is to rectify the image of Islam we are putting out to the masses and hold hands to help re-route each other." We're quick to point out negatives in each other, and do so quite openly and proudly, but my brother, do not forget that there is volumes written on the way in which Rasulullah (salallahu 'alayhi wa salaam) corrected people's mistakes. Islam doesn't need to be defended as such, it has its prescribed defence, by the Almighty. If anything, we should, and I say this again, work towards removing the question mark we have placed on the title and image of the Muslim today which will lead to unification, strong ties and roots. Islam has always been strange, but then, at the very least, we will be stronger targets, and not weak, confused and reactionary ones.

[unknownprince]

questioning is different. Even the Kafirs would come and question and argue with the Prophet(pbuh) who would sit and entertain their questions as best as he could.

However, making snide remarks about Islam such as claiming it to be only for Arabs, and that following it is an expression of Arab hegemony- well this is wrong and un-Islamic.

Lets read the Last Sermon:


"O People, listen well to my words, for I do not know whether, after this year, I shall ever be amongst you again. Therefore listen to what I am saying to you very carefully and TAKE THESE WORDS TO THOSE WHO COULD NOT BE PRESENT HERE TODAY. O People, just as you regard this month, this day, this city as Sacred, so regard the life and property of every Muslim as a sacred trust. Return the goods entrusted to you to their rightful owners. Treat others justly so that no one would be unjust to you. Remember that you will indeed meet your LORD, and that HE will indeed reckon your deeds. God has forbidden you to take usury (riba), therefore all riba obligation shall henceforth be waived. Your capital , however, is yours to keep. You will neither inflict nor suffer inequity. God has judged that there shall be no riba and that all the riba due to `Abbas ibn `Abd al Muttalib shall henceforth be waived.
Every right arising out of homicide in pre-Islamic days is henceforth waived and the first such right that I waive is that arising from the murder of Rabi`ah ibn al Harith ibn `Abd al Muttalib.
O Men, the Unbelievers indulge in tampering with the calendar in order to make permissible that which God forbade, and to forbid that which God has made permissible. With God the months are twelve in number. Four of them are sacred, three of these are successive and one occurs singly between the months of Jumada and Sha`ban. Beware of the devil, for the safety of your religion. He has lost all hope that he will ever be able to lead you astray in big things, so beware of following him in small things.
O People, it is true that you have certain rights over your women, but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives only under God's trust and with His permission. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Treat your women well and be kind to them, for they are your partners and committed helpers. It is your right and they do not make friends with anyone of whom you do not approve, as well as never to be unchaste...
O People, listen to me in earnest, worship God (The One Creator of the Universe), perform your five daily prayers (Salah), fast during the month of Ramadan, and give your financial obligation (zakah) of your wealth. Perform Hajj if you can afford to.
All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over a black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood. Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly. Do not, therefore, do injustice to yourselves.
Remember, one day you will appear before God (The Creator) and you will answer for your deeds. So beware, do not stray from the path of righteousness after I am gone.
O People, NO PROPHET OR MESSENGER WILL COME AFTER ME AND NO NEW FAITH WILL BE BORN. Reason well, therefore, O People, and understand words which I convey to you. I am leaving you with the Book of God (the QUR'AN*) and my SUNNAH (the life style and the behavioral mode of the Prophet), if you follow them you will never go astray.
All those who listen to me shall pass on my words to others and those to others again; and may the last ones understand my words better than those who listen to me directly. Be my witness O God, that I have conveyed your message to your people.

[unknownprince]

From here ^^, you can tell how peaceful and open-minded the Prophet(pbuh) was. He was a fair individual.

[*Mahzala*]

Mahzala means really well and I'm sure she's a very kind individual.
But my eyes glaze over her words every time.
She doesn't really SAY ANYthing - it's a mishmash of what Manzareh said:
desperation to keep the peace, keep people calm, give out a carrot to every faction.

Catya, in all honesty, I think everyone is of age here to understand the difference between right and wrong approaches, and so me, 'saying anything' is not necessary, and perhaps won't even make a difference. I have said this before, but the reminder is necessary: I give a lot of importance to making sure I am not the cause of someone's disappointment (a reason for my inactivity in many threads and topics), however, it does not mean I fear or am victim of the western mindset and ideals you repeatedly mention in your post. In saying that, as we say in Pakhto, ze, cherta te ze zaroori gorema, khalko ta haqq pe laas ke warkawoma, and so if you want more than a mishmash, my posts are all over the forum. A reread won't hurt.

Not one carrot is ever offered to the very serious-minded ones, who she and most people make sure to be heard to knock whenever these topics arise. I'm speaking of SK. Formerly Sangar. With the Arabic script username.

Would it surprise you to know that when Sangar decided to 'leave' or shall I say, when he dramatised his two-week end of semester university workload, I was among the very few who made sure he made presences here? Would it also surprise you to know that among the staff, I was the only one who was concerned at his exit message? I was soft, and yes, I consider it my mistake. I say this boldly Catya, but sometimes I feel you are turning a very blind eye. You are the only one who stands by Sangar when he makes judgments about people's faith, miles away from people, behind a screen, in the comfort of his own home. You're the only one who stood by him when he shamelessly accused a senior of frequenting brothel visits. Does something sound wrong to you there? The rights of elders in our Deen outweigh any other religion and the rights of mashraan in our culture outweigh any other culture. You didn't once think twice in my opinion (these are only some examples that come to mind).

Sk is very very strong in his faith and ability to fight these often abrasive types like MI-6, and the entire crew of skeptics of Islam. If not outright unbelievers in it.

You know Catya, many people turn to Allah in the latter part of their lives. There are very few who are devout Muslims during their youth. Allah guide him even more, but to me, it is not something extraordinary that he prays five times and day and stands by Islam on an online forum when someone mocks it. If we are strong and faithful to our Deen, the knowledge we seek should only humble us more and more. We, on the other hand, give ourselves the right to call people 'filthy liers', 'filthy hypocrites' 'filthy kufaar', 'prostitutes' and 'homosexuals'. Is it not part of our religion to avoid mockery and making judgments? Is it not strong faith to abide by countless narrations of Ahadeeth that emphasise the importance of good manners and healthy ways of correcting people's mistakes? Does that still seem like strong faith to you? I can easily step in and call anyone and everyone a liar and kaafir for the views that do not parallel mine, but that is not correct, not on an Islamic level, nor a cultural one.

For example, no one is brave enough to say that Jihad is necessary or important. Huge numbers of the members are so intimidated by the Western mentality because they were brought up in America or Europe or other so-called Christian lands. They are too timid to uphold Islam more than celebrating Eid or perhaps fasting.

And so what if we said Jihad is necessary? Jihaad is not limited to going out on a battlefield and fighting kufaar. There are thirteen types of Jihaad excluding the latter. Our western environments do not influence us, they limit us in situations as these. Islam is not limited to going out in the battlefield and giving yourself up in the name of your religion and meeting your Lord in the most pure way a person can die. Education and seeking knowledge, and engaging in its healthy dissemination is encouraged and emphasised in Quran and Ahadeeth many a time. While I agree with you that there is a mass of rotten apples floating around in our Ummah, I still think we are no one to judge them. Sure, actions speak louder than words, but there are always things we do not see, or hear of that people do for the Creator.

Only a few have the backbone to NOT give in to the overwhelming secular mindset of the populations amongst whom they reside. Especially, that which infests the school systems in which they study.

You're quite right, there are a few, and a few who do it properly. I, someone who is on the same page as Sangar's beliefs, get offended and disappointed at his remarks time and time again so a non-Muslim is bound to and has every right to. On an end note, standing by the truth (haqq) and being just is commanded in the Quran, and turning a blind eye on it is discouraged. Where someone is wrong, they are wrong, there are no exceptions. They need to rectify it, full stop.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Thank you khore for that post. I will consider that your post also applies to me. We should never think that a good message does not apply to oneself, we should think that every good message applies to oneself.

Manana!

I am so glad that you are part of this forum.

[شمله ور خراساني]

there is no problem with Islam.

There is a problem with secularized Muslims who allow murtadeen and zanadiqa to come and talk trash.

And I have no idea what Mahzala is trying to say. But it seems like she is too scared to say whats on her mind.

The rules of this forum is based on secularist notion of free speech as stipulated in John Stuart Mills "on liberty" with a small adaption by mentioning Islam.

We shouldn't focus on the forum rules. But rather watch the conduct of the administration of this forum. The Admin uses one of the subforums to promote American PsyOps propaganda. Roshina is mocking the beliefs of orthodox Muslims and goes around saying god doesn't really exist.

And critical posts and threads are deleted because they conflict with the agenda of this forum.

And no, I am not going to leave this forum. When I did announce to leave months ago, the very same people who are attacking me now were begging me to stay.

You asked for it, so now endure what you were begging for.

[*Mahzala*]

Sangar, I have nothing to fear. When I have something to say, I do. In fact, I am confused at your stance from your post above. I'll point out a few.

You refer to it as a secularist notion of free speech, yet you exercise it more than anyone on this forum. If it wasn't for Admin Khan allowing your threads and posts (often very disrespectful and inciting), how would you advance your agendas and opinions on the rest of the members? How would you refer to non-Muslims as filthy hypocrites and declare some Muslims as kaafir? How would you refer to your sisters as feminists who are on the verge of prostitution? How would you tell your mashraan that they visit brothels?

I don't have a problem with anyone on this forum and I doubt I will ever create that opportunity where someone be at my neck and I at theirs, however, why the irony? I, and the rest of this forum, would be delighted to know which critical post and thread was deleted that didn't match the supposed agenda of this forum? No one is asking you to leave and no one has till this day. Says much about our agendas doesn't it?

As for the begging and attacking part, the latter I don't agree with. You have not been attacked. If anything, I have simply regurgitated your words, something you shouldn't take offense from. And begging you to stay; concern for your unsatisfactory experience from the staff is a whole different thing to begging you to stay. In fact, even then, you were expressing your anger at the staff, and from what I remember, all four members of the staff gave you a response, privately and publicly. Your thread still exists, I can't put my finger on any begging. If we asked for anything, it was cooperation, not threats and a change of attitude which, now is almost always negative. The reason you were mentioned in this thread is because Catya made mention of you and it appears she considers you a benchmark for the Muslim man/image.

[شمله ور خراساني]

Sangar, I have nothing to fear. When I have something to say, I do. In fact, I am confused at your stance from your post above. I'll point out a few.
You refer to it as a secularist notion of free speech, yet you exercise it more than anyone on this forum.

Just because I speak out freely it doesn't mean that this forum is not secular. Since the forum allows free speech, my speech as well as that of some evil people is tolerated. However, when I make a thread about how Admin is promoting American PsyOps, suddenly the thread is deleted without any notice to why and for what reason.

If it wasn't for Admin Khan allowing your threads and posts (often very disrespectful and inciting), how would you advance your agendas and opinions on the rest of the members?

Admin is a dishonest person. Who removed my posts on several occasions to support his silly secularist friends like "osho" because he did not like what I was saying against those who promote American occupation of Afghanistan.

When I was talking to him in a chat sesssion he showed his true colors saying how wonderful America is. And when I told him why doesn't he say this stuff on his forum, he said that it will negatively influence public opinion about Pashtunforums.

How would you refer to non-Muslims as filthy hypocrites and declare some Muslims as kaafir?

Who did I call kaafir who wasn't an outspoken murtad? Roshina? She questions the existence of god. And claims that quran does not provide sufficient evidence for the existence of god. She might be your firend. But when she says stuff like that, are we suppose to say: you are a muslima? Irja is a greater sin than Takfeer. How far can we expand the title of Muslim? Why not include Qadianis and Ismailis as well? After all, they all claim to be Muslims.

How would you refer to your sisters as feminists who are on the verge of prostitution?

Who did I call a prostitute? I never called anyone a porostitute. I told your friend Mayana not to use "bazari tone" with me. Since when is asking someone not to use such tone synonimous to calling someone a prostitute?

How would you tell your mashraan that they visit brothels?

Tor Khan is not my mesher. He is a secularist who doesn't deserve respect. Because he uses his moderator position to issue warnings and counter those who oppose the secularist agenda.

I don't have a problem with anyone on this forum and I doubt I will ever create that opportunity where someone be at my neck and I at theirs, however, why the irony? I, and the rest of this forum, would be delighted to know which critical post and thread was deleted that didn't match the supposed agenda of this forum?

I'm mentioned this above.

No one is asking you to leave and no one has till this day. Says much about our agendas doesn't it?

Admin braught up the subject of leaving in another thread where I was critical of the tolerance for savages like Baygham to go around say the most vile and nasty things about Islam and muslims. He got angry and started saying that if dont like the way this forum is moderated I should leave. I cant find the thread. But I think it was in politics section.

As for the begging and attacking part, the latter I don't agree with. You have not been attacked.

WHo cares if you agry or this agree. There are at least a dozen of people who mention my name in almost every thread when they have something negative to say.

If anything, I have simply regurgitated your words, something you shouldn't take offense from.

I wasn't specifically talking about you.

And begging you to stay; concern for your unsatisfactory experience from the staff is a whole different thing to begging you to stay.

Again, I was talking about at least 10 people who bombarded my PM box and my visitors wall begging me not to leave. Among whom some outspoken secularists and murtadeen who now go around saying I am a manace and should be banned.

In fact, even then, you were expressing your anger at the staff, and from what I remember, all four members of the staff gave you a response, privately and publicly.

Their response was nonsensical defense of their secularist dogma.

Your thread still exists, I can't put my finger on any begging.

The begging occuried in private as I mentined before.

If we asked for anything, it was cooperation, not threats and a change of attitude which, now is almost always negative.

I cooperated by reporting posts. I remember reporting at least one negative posts per day. Be it against muslims or against non-Muslims. But I stopped doing that when Admin starting budding in and defended his fellow pro-American cheerleaders and deleted my posts.

The reason you were mentioned in this thread is because Catya made mention of you and it appears she considers you a benchmark for the Muslim man/image.

I dont know about Catya, but yes, thank you. I do consider myself one of the few Muslim males on this forum.

And mind you, my short sentence in previous post where I mentioned you was not meant to upset you or attack you. I still respect you as one of the most respected and honored people I know on this forum. So don't take this personal.

[*Mahzala*]

I guess, following Catya's response, the thread may divert to something personal which is not the purpose. No, I have not taken offense or felt any disappointment. My examples on your part were only a reminder of some things I think we should rectify in our behaviours. There is nothing wrong in us reminding each other to 're-route'. I think I've explained myself well enough in my previous posts and so I'll avoid being redundant. One thing I will bring to your attention is that when one places his loyalty to his religion alongside a friendship, an online one at that, it means very little. The few names you've mentioned in your posts who are deviants, they are not entertained on this forum. I've mentioned this before, there is a fine line between questioning, debating and ridiculing, and the latter this website does not tolerate. You may think che maa de ghwa qesa ra niweleda, but I strongly stand by what I said earlier about us considering our approach and the image of Islam we are putting out to the masses.

I say it again, our concerns are the same, our expressions are different.

[Wrayun]

Problem Free Speech?

If you are going to tolerate the irreligious zealots, your going to have to tolerate the religious zealots....at the expense of who? The sanity of the rest of the members, admins, and moderators....is it worth it? Absolutely not.

Dictatorship, rule with a firm hand.

Quality, not quantity.

I pray for Admin Khan.

[Admin Khan]

Sangar,
I challenge you. Can you give me 1 proof where I have removed your post for no reason? Can you offer 1 proof in which the staff has in a mysterious form worked against you? It's a psychological problem when someone always thinks each and every action revolves around him or her. Nonetheless, all of our deleted posts can be restored. So refrain from your nonsense, you make it seem like we delete your posts because you are speaking the truth. The last thread I recall deleting of yours, was the one in which you began calling senior members of Pashtun Forums 'kaffirs', because they somehow did not meet your skewed definition of a Muslim. You are making many bod claims, such as Admin is a dishonest person. However, what have I done to you? I haven't spoken to you in months! Osho is extremely busy as well, and I have not spoken to him in at least 3 months as well. You can attack me, but don't you dare attack Tor_Khan and Mahzala, stay within your limits, you are not above the law here. You and I both know you have insulted a handful of members. I have given you your own little space, and PF can't be more transparent than your post above in which you have attacked the staff once again. It is you not me who runs around saying ALL the moderators are Benamoos. Learn to talk with respect, stop making lies to gain public sympathy. I am busy with school work, that should not mean you can run around formulating lies for your own strategic benefits. Try finding another Pashtun Forum which has more threads, Islamic threads, than PF. In fact, many don't even have a Religion section. Lying, cheating and badmouthing are all sins in that very Islam you preach. If you don't like it here, feel free to find a better community. I, along with the rest of the team have been fairly lenient when dealing with you, and it appears to me as if you are taking advantage of us.

As for the nonsense you are spreading about Psyops(whatever that is)stop spewing hate brother. I love hearing about developments, I love it when I find out a school has been constructed in Kunar or Kandahar. We have suffered enough already, and I only post about it because I want our people to know we have hope and our people might now have access to Pohantoons or hospitals. Many of those schools have not even been built by America, they are constructed by India or Turkey. Its a darn school, which makes me happy. In that school, Islam will be taught as well. We need proper education, and knowing we have one of the worst literacy rates in the world, I feel its vital. Usually when I find out a school or a bridge has been built, my thoughts revolve around the poor, cause I know it will benefit them. That is my intention behind it, actions are judged by intentions. So please, stop creating lies. Not everything revolves around the USA or you. If you have the intellectual ability of refuting a post, refute the editorials I post(which are not even mine)of various news outlets. I visit local Afghan news websites, and when I read or see that a new road has been constructed, I just know our infrastructure has now been slightly improved. That is all I care for. Stop being so naive.

General statement: We don't need Pashtuns in Pashtun Forums, who cant behave like a Pashtun. Being Pashtun does not mean speaking Pashto, there is much more to it.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Admin Khan, lala jaana, only a fool would not recognize your impartiality.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Imagine, Aseer Gul, I, who have been bashed by Sangar, day in and day out, am tolerant towards him, only because I know he is trying to stand up for Islam. But in essence he is giving Islam an intolerant image. Admin Khan has opened this forum to everyone so that they can express their views, regardless of how radical it is. That says so much about a person. Sangar, don't attack Admin Khan aimlessly. He is different, in a good way.

The moderators should help out Admid Khan, so that he does not get the blame for their inability to do their jobs properly--not all moderators, of course. They should not wait for a report in order to repremand someone for bashing Islam. When they see it, they should do their jobs. Period. Regardless of who their friends are. And, regardless of what their beliefs are.

All of the moderators are intelligent, but they need to be impartial, otherwise unnecessary blame would come on Admin Khan, a man who is kind and who loves his people, regardless of tribe or religious affiliation.