What constitutes a Muslim?

[khushal]

Finally, this is the discussion that I wanted to happen. Thank you Maiwand for being honest.

Khushal, now do you follow my train of thought?

All Maiwand is saying that it is the right of every human being to defend himself against anybody, a fellow muslim, a former muslim, a person that was never muslim. You even have the right to defend yourself against your brother/sister or mother/father. If you think thats wrong, then there is something wrong with you.
Your train of thought is biased, you dont even know what he said, you only hear what you want to hear.

If some secular man was saying the same thing, you would all agree with it, but just because he is using arabic word and using Islam in his sentences, you auatomatically think he is saying evil things.

[Maiwand]

we can deduct this? what is your qualifications to deduct a ruling of killing on your own human beings? I said show me where in the 4 madhabs (sunni) this is allowed?

The Quran and Sunnah of the prophet have an higher priority and significane for a muslim than the 4 madhabs. But I think that even the imams of the four madhabs would agree with this point, that's why many of those scholars were imprisoned by the government or authority in power. Another point is that those scholars focussed mainly on the things important for their time, at that time the muslims were not being attacked and their countries occuptied by foreign disbelieving enemies, so they didn't issue fatwa's about such a matter. But later on when that happened, scholars like Sheikh ul-Islam Ibn Taymiya did issue fatwa's. At the time of Salahudeen Al-Ayubi when the crusaders had attacked the muslim countries, similar fatwa's were issued. Relatively recently at the time of colonization, also similar fatwa's were issued by scholars. Even when the Russians had attacked almost all scholars of the muslim world issued these kinds of fatwa's. But now it is different, most of the fatwa's in the muslim world are issued by government sponsored or controlled institutions and the goverments themselves are apostates and puppets of america. So every scholar who is truthful is killed or imprisoned and labeled as a terrorist.

[Dust]

All Maiwand is saying that it is the right of every human being to defend himself against anybody, a fellow muslim, a former muslim, a person that was never muslim. You even have the right to defend yourself against your brother/sister or mother/father. If you think thats wrong, then there is something wrong with you.
Your train of thought is biased, you dont even know what he said, you only hear what you want to hear.

If some secular man was saying the same thing, you would all agree with it, but just because he is using arabic word and using Islam in his sentences, you auatomatically think he is saying evil things.

Don't get too ahead of yourself. Further, you should read more into my posts, in general, before making an assumption about me. You are become defensive now. Don't do this. Be more critical of your faith. This whole exercise is "constructive criticism." If you can't handle this then you don't belong in an intellectual discussion.

I was referring to this:

This verse appears in chapter 5, verse 51 of the Qur’an:

O, you who believe [in the message of Muhammad], do not take Jews and Christians as awliya’ . They are awliya’ to one another, and the one among you who turns to them is of them. Truly, God does not guide wrongdoing folk.

Meaning everyone who supports the crusaders/zionists in Afghansitan, is a murtad!!!

And we all know what the punnishment for apostacy is in Islam. Every major scholar agreed with this.

[Haneef]

The Quran and Sunnah of the prophet have an higher priority and significane for a muslim than the 4 madhabs. But I think that even the imams of the four madhabs would agree with this point, that's why many of those scholars were imprisoned by the government or authority in power. Another point is that those scholars focussed mainly on the things important for their time, at that time the muslims were not being attacked and their countries occuptied by foreign disbelieving enemies, so they didn't issue fatwa's about such a matter. But later on when that happened, scholars like Sheikh ul-Islam Ibn Taymiya did issue fatwa's. At the time of Salahudeen Al-Ayubi when the crusaders had attacked the muslim countries, similar fatwa's were issued. Relatively recently at the time of colonization, also similar fatwa's were issued by scholars. Even when the Russians had attacked almost all scholars of the muslim world issued these kinds of fatwa's. But now it is different, most of the fatwa's in the muslim world are issued by government sponsored or controlled institutions and the goverments themselves are apostates and puppets of america. So every scholar who is truthful is killed or imprisoned and labeled as a terrorist.

The 4 madhabs are the interpretation and implementation of the Quran and Sunnah buddy. I think, I feel, I wish, are not fatwas, they do not hold any value, it is merely your opinion. I asked you to provide daleel for where you find that a murtad should be killed, in war time and non-war time. If you can not, discussion is over, you are wrong in stating things w/o knowledge.

[khushal]

Don't get too ahead of yourself. Further, you should read more into my posts, in general, before making an assumption about me. You are become defensive now. Don't do this. Be more critical of your faith. This whole exercise is "constructive criticism." If you can't handle this then you don't belong in an intellectual discussion.

I was referring to this:

Like Haneef said, This is only opinion. All Maiwand has said that it goes back to the basic right of human beings having the right to defend oneself. Thats it.

Let me put it to you in secular terms. If army A is in a war with Army B, and if someone from army A joins with army B, then there will be punishment for that someone from Army A but reward from Army B. this is common sense.

Dust,
You are confusing natural human behavior and reaction to certain stimuli and variables with the message of Islam. I dont see any difference between you and the people that manipulate Islam for their own interests. You yourself is manipulating it for your own interests.

[Dust]

^What are you on about?

Maiwand called those who accept the NATO forces in Afghanistan as murtads. Period. This is what I mean by what constitutes a Muslim?

I am not manipulating anything. Maiwand proved my stance: there is no one interpretation of who is and who is not a Muslim. This is what I am trying to get at.

If this is not the fault of the religion then whose fault is it? Why are so many being kicked out of Islam because they don't adhere to a particular sect?

The above, what Maiwand presented, only an example. Read the rest of the posts and you will see many people giong at it.

If this is not the fault of Islam then why was Islam not clear about? Also, does this mean that any sect in Islam is correct, since there is no specific mention of it. Also, you said that there is nothing wrong with religion except people. Does this mean that Hinduism and Buddhism are also correct?

This discussion is sincere. If you are going to throw ad hominems around, then please save us both the headache and don't respond to my posts. I am here to "discuss" because it is a "forum." You should not have care for my approach, you should just worry about the fallacies in my logic and pin-point them. Period. Don't insult and don't accuse.

[Dust]

One more thing, if you follow different posts, you will see that people who have the same belief usually "thank" each other. This is their level of "intellect." They are not able to think outside the box. They are too scared.

This is not what I want. I want people to be able to entertain my thoughts and then pin-point the fallacy in my logic. The only way you would be able to do this is by giving my argument the benefit of the doubt, first. Otherwise, our discussion is hopeless. We will never learn anything from each other.

If you have noticed, I have spoken against the fallacies in the logic of some Atheists, on this forum, like Baygham. So, please keep this professional.

[khushal]

One more thing, if you follow different posts, you will see that people who have the same belief usually "thank" each other. This is their level of "intellect." They are not able to think outside the box. They are too scared.

This is not what I want. I want people to be able to entertain my thoughts and then pin-point the fallacy in my logic. The only way you would be able to do this is by giving my argument the benefit of the doubt, first. Otherwise, our discussion is hopeless. We will never learn anything from each other.

If you have noticed, I have spoken against the fallacies in the logic of some Atheists, on this forum, like Baygham. So, please keep this professional.

Islam gives you the right to defend yourself and Maiwand is trying to use this right to legitimize what the taliban are doing.

Afghanistan is in War. The Taliban has declared that afghans working for Nato forces are not considered civilians and will be targeted. Maiwand is trying to legitimize what the taliban are doing is morally right. That these afghans are traitors and their actions are treason.

Now on the other side of the coin is the Afghan government who says it is the Taliban who are traitors to their own people by serving pakistani interests and working against afghan interests. They also target anyone that is associated with the taliban.

Both sides are fighting for the hearts and minds of the afghan people, who ever gets those hearts and minds are the winner. You have to look beyond what people say and think about why they are saying it. This is War and both sides are going to use what ever means they have to win, they will manipulate the Quaran, they will manipulate democracy, they will manipulate the girga to win.

I dont know who said this but he said it best,
"the first casualty of war is truth"

My point is this is all natural human reactions. Stop attacking Islam for Human flaws. Humans are not designed to be perfect creatures the way you picture yourself.

[Fatima]

Hadith of Gabriel
One day when we were sitting with the Messenger of God there came unto us a man whose clothes were of exceeding whiteness and whose hair was of exceeding blackness; nor were there any signs of travel upon him, although none of us knew him. He sat down knee unto knee opposite the Prophet, upon whose thighs he placed the palms of his hands saying: “O Muhammad, tell me what is the surrender (islam).” The Messenger answered him saying: “the surrender is to testify that there is no god but God and that Muhammad is God’s Messenger, to perform the prayer, bestow the alms, fast Ramadan and make if though canst, the pilgrimage to the Holy House.” He said: “thou hast spoken truly,”: and we were amazed that, having questioned him, he should corroborate him. Then he said: “Tell me what is faith (iman).” He answered: “To believe in God and His Angels and His books and His Messengers and the Last Day, and to believe that no good or evil cometh but by his Providence.” “Thou hast spoken truly,” he said, and then: “Tell me what is excellence (ihsan).” He answered: “To worship God as if thou sawest him, for if thou seest Him not, yet seeth He thee.” “Thou hast spoken truly,” he said, and then: “tell me of the Hour.” He answered: “The questioned thereof knoweth no better than the questioner.” He said: “Then tell me of its signs.” He answered: “That the slave-girl shall give birth to her mistress; and that those who were but barefoot naked needy herdsmen shall build buildings ever higher and higher.” Then the stranger went away, and I stayed a while after he had gone; and the Prophet said to me: “O Umar, knowest though the questioner, who was he?” I said: “God and His Messenger know best.” He said: “It was Gabriel. He came unto teach you your religion.”
Sahih Bukhari
Volume 1, Book 2, Number 47

Studying this, we realize o, in Islam, every part of the deen has a science. Fiqh is the science of Islam, which governs the limbs. This is our ritual prayer, the ritual ablution, how to fast, etc… Aqeeda (Creed) is the science of iman (faith), which teaches us proper belief and how we have to belief in angels and the messengers peace be upon them etc. Iman corresponds to the heart and mind. Finally there is ihsan, which is focused on the heart, the consciousness and inward behavior and it's corresponding science is tassawuf or "Sufism" (not to be confused with commercialized"Sufism")

[Dust]

Islam gives you the right to defend yourself and Maiwand is trying to use this right to legitimize what the taliban are doing.

Afghanistan is in War. The Taliban has declared that afghans working for Nato forces are not considered civilians and will be targeted. Maiwand is trying to legitimize what the taliban are doing is morally right. That these afghans are traitors and their actions are treason.

Now on the other side of the coin is the Afghan government who says it is the Taliban who are traitors to their own people by serving pakistani interests and working against afghan interests. They also target anyone that is associated with the taliban.

Both sides are fighting for the hearts and minds of the afghan people, who ever gets those hearts and minds are the winner. You have to look beyond what people say and think about why they are saying it. This is War and both sides are going to use what ever means they have to win, they will manipulate the Quaran, they will manipulate democracy, they will manipulate the girga to win.

I dont know who said this but he said it best,
"the first casualty of war is truth"

My point is this is all natural human reactions. Stop attacking Islam for Human flaws. Humans are not designed to be perfect creatures the way you picture yourself.

My friend,


From what you have said, then does this mean that Hinduism is also right, and so is Buddhism?

[khushal]

My friend,


From what you have said, then does this mean that Hinduism is also right, and so is Buddhism?

The question isnt if hinduism and Buddhism is right or wrong, the question is should we blame the religion for the action of its followers, or should we blame the followers for their own actions, or maybe we should look in to the environment that the followers are in.

If you had the life experiences of Mula Omar, would you be thinking the way you are thinking right now, or would you be thinking more like him.

If a hindu blows himself up killing other people in the process, like they did when the Tamil tigers were fighting for independece in sri lanka. I am not going to be as shallow as you and blame the religion of Hindism for his decision. Its not that simple, It is much deeper than that.

[شمله ور خراساني]

Dust, you made this thread to show how divergent the beliefs of Muslims are on this forum.

You did not make this thread to sincerely ask a question and seek the best answer.

This is a forum full of laymen.

You pretend to be a proponent of science. So act like a scientist. Dont go and randomly ask laymen about something you want to know. Go to the sources, and read the books, approach prominent scholars of Islam.

At least, if you are truthful and sincere in your quest for the truth.

[Dust]

^The laymen follow the leaders. The leaders lead the laymen. It is the same thing, don't you think so?

Question: Why are you so persistent in establishing your form of Islam. Honest question?

[Dust]

The question isnt if hinduism and Buddhism is right or wrong, the question is should we blame the religion for the action of its followers, or should we blame the followers for their own actions, or maybe we should look in to the environment that the followers are in.

If you had the life experiences of Mula Omar, would you be thinking the way you are thinking right now, or would you be thinking more like him.

If a hindu blows himself up killing other people in the process, like they did when the Tamil tigers were fighting for independece in sri lanka. I am not going to be as shallow as you and blame the religion of Hindism for his decision. Its not that simple, It is much deeper than that.

Your response is irrelevant to my question.

I am agreeing with you (for argument's sake) that it is man who has corrupted religion. Hence, this means that Hinduism or Buddhism are also correct, right?

[شمله ور خراساني]

^The laymen follow the leaders. The leaders lead the laymen. It is the same thing, don't you think so?

Question: Why are you so persistent in establishing your form of Islam. Honest question?

No. Because if you ask a question in regards to a delicate matter, you need to ask someone who is an expert. And not someone who does not have sufficient knowledge of the matter he is discussing.

I am not presistent in establishing my form of Islam. My form of Islam is already established for 1400 years.

However, there are different opinions. Some are supported by quran and hadeeth. Others are not. And the ones that are not need to vanish. Because we are the people of scripture. not the people of whims and desires.