What constitutes a Muslim?

[Wrayun]

Strange that you first have to find God. Then you have to find the right religion. Then you have to find the sect within that religion.

I am getting dizzy.

But what does the religion say about sects? It's not that hard to study the faith yourself and find the truth. You don't have to rely on a mullah, a sheikh, an imam, or a scholar if you are as educated and smart as someone like Dust. You are above the average Joe, you have a critical mind and you can come to a conclusion on your own without falling like the rest midst the clutter.

Does the Quran support sects?

As for those who divide their religion and break up into sects, thou hast no part in them in the least: their affair is with Allah: He will in the end tell them the truth of all that they did. (6:159)

The Quran makes it clear that those who follow Islam, believe in Islam, are just Muslims. And anyone that even dares to fall into sects, are not from the religion. God is not even suggesting to go murder or pillage them, He states He will deal with them.

In todays age with all this information available, sects serve no purpose. They are obsolete. The only people that need them are those who need others to do the thinking for them, who seek brotherhood, union with others.

[Baygham]

How is that different when applied to any sort of belief, not just religion? Just because a group accuses someone of hearsay doesn't make it true. There is a process for these things. Killing and eradicating is the last resort. I think extremists naturally receive little to no support, unless the population happens to be illiterate and ignorant of their own religion. That is the only time where such extremism can nurture itself when there is nothing in place to check such ideologies.

These things occur in all groups, and beliefs. If tomorrow, a group of atheists decided that killing any life form is haram, against humanism, who is to stop them from taking matters in their own hands? You see that with save the whales, save the trees, save the animals, and other left wing groups.

so you are saying if I opened a cult-baygham in USA and openly said that all mormons will be killed for they belief in american jesus and then mormons are popping left and right and I issue bulletins upon bulletins taking responsibility, my preachers openly incite followers to kill all mormons. I dont heed the mormins or any government, In that case what is the best course.

If the save the whales guys say that kill all the fish eaters and start killing those at the fish isles, than they are no different than any other group.

The taliban and others calling a pashtoon murtad and wajibulkatal and then killing them amounts to the same. Unless they openly say that that is illegal and kill their friend that does so they should be guilty and responsible.

[Wrayun]

Baygham;

so you are saying if I opened a cult-baygham in USA and openly said that all mormons will be killed for they belief in american jesus and then mormons are popping left and right and I issue bulletins upon bulletins taking responsibility, my preachers openly incite followers to kill all mormons. I dont heed the mormins or any government, In that case what is the best course.

Well we already know that everything was peaceful till the cult-baygham came in and started declaring fatwas and takfirs. Naturally everyone will get up and take care of cult-baygham. The best course will be to contain cult-baygham and reason with it. If reason doesn't work and cult-baygham continues to incite hate, take matters in their own hands then cult-baygham has to face the music. In such a case it doesnt even matter who is right or wrong, who ever is in majority will establish their writ. To protect their interests cult-baygham unfortunately has to go. I think thats reasonable.

The taliban and others calling a pashtoon murtad and wajibulkatal and then killing them amounts to the same. Unless they openly say that that is illegal and kill their friend that does so they should be guilty and responsible.

There are elements within the Taliban that make takfir, but most Talibs are not Salafi, Wahabi, or Deobandi. Majority of them are mainstream Hanafi and many Sufi. I'm sure that even midst the Taliban, there are those who will stand up to the takfiris and put them in check like they did many times when they ruled over Afghanistan. In fact there have been instances when local Afghan Talib leaders chased out Pakistani, Bangali, Tajiki, Arab extremists in defense of minorities. Right now situation is choatic, things are out of control and we can hardly deduce who is doing what and representing who.

It is in the interest of any state or government (religious or not), to keep things in order and not allow any cults, sheikhs, imams or mullahs making fatwas, declaring this or that group infidel or undeserables while inciting violence. These things undermines the state, makes it vulnerable and leaves room for outside influences to interfere with the state affairs. Common sense should prevail.


At least we should hope that it does.

[khushal]

Amazing how on this very thread no two Muslims have given you the same answer. As per my observations, it is not a matter of what you think about what Islam is. It is a matter of who you follow. In other words, you could say that you are following Islam as per you heart and efforts, but if someone disagrees with your form of Islam you are doomed. You are Hell bound, no ifs or buts about it.

At the end of the day it is all about which Muslim group is the strongest and the most influential, because I don't buy it that it is a matter of the heart. NO WAY, JOSE! It is a matter of the approval of people, and this thread and the members of this forum, just like everyday Muslims, have perfectly illustrated this view, without explicitly saying it.

How do I know? Most people here don't speak out when the member of another sect is being abused. People join in on the attack or they simply remain calm and don't defend the person whose beliefs are being abused.

I have to commend the effort of Qrratugai. I have learnt a lot from her. She seems to be able to hold on to her views, but also gives someone else the right to also call their faith correct. I wonder if there are more Muslims like her around?

Its not a Muslim thing or a Islamic thing that people disagree. This is a human thing.

Islam teaches tolerance. That is the number one reason it spread so rapidly. Disagreement can be a good thing. disagreements between people can stimulate the mind and bring progress to humanity. It brings competition but it has to be implemented in a positive way.

There was a time when Baghdad was the center of learning before the Mongols destroyed it. Great thinkers and scholars came to baghdad to study, compete, and share their research and ideas. During that time Christiandom was intolerant of new ideas. They considered studying Aristotle and Socrates as blasphemious and against the laws of God. Christian Scholars came to Baghdad to study and share their thoughts freely with peers that were Muslim, jewish, hindu and other scholars of other faiths.

It was the hindus that developed the arabic numeral system that the whole world uses today. But they developed it in Baghdad because the environment existed where people could share ideas freely. They could have not developed it in India where their was no tolerance or in Christian Europe where there was no tolerance.
Christian Europe use to burn people to death that talked about astonomy, laws of physics. America and western europe today are the centers of inovation and research.

Today I see very little tolerance in muslim societies. The intolerance is not just from muslims in those societies but from jews, christians, hindus and atheists. The environment in these societies is of no tolerence because of the way they are ruled by their regimes just like the way europe was in the dark ages.

There is no freedom to express opinion and Im not just talking about atheists like Baygram expressing their opinion, Im talking about muslims that just want to pray in a mosque dont have the right to express their opinion. In some muslims countries, the authorities question, arrest and torture when you pray in a mosque five times a day or when you read the quaran too much. They basically dont have the right to practice their religion because the regimes fear them.

In this environment where you dont have freedom of expression, there is no other alternative but to rebel, and if a human being can not find a way to rebel peacefully, then they rebel violently, and this is what we are seeing today in the middle east especially in the arab countries. The authorotarian regimes in these countries are so harsh on them that people go to Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan and other countries organize, plan and to violently rebel against those governments and their supporters, the people turn to extemists ideology and become bent on overthrowing these regimes by any means neccesary. These regimes were created by the British and the French, Just want to point that out.

Once upon a time afghansitan was peaceful, When reform in the country was going slow, the government became inpatient. The communists did not have any tolerence for the villagers to practice what they beleived. they went to the villages and started forcing women to take off their veils and forcing them to go to schools, ordering people not to pray too much. when the villagers rebelled, they in turn became intolerant to women that did not wear veils or went to schools, or men having no beards or not praying in mosques and so on and so on. I heard a story of a villager telling a communist government soldier "you dare force us to become like you, Im going to force you to become like us," right before a bullet went into the soldier's head. The soldier was forced into the army.
My point being intolerance begets intolerence.

It is very important to know that extremism and intolerence flourishes in certain environments and we must study how that environment was created, only then we can learn how to fix it.

[Haneef]

Islam
To believe in God and the prophet Muhammad Peace be upon him as his last messenger.

This is the basic definition of a Muslim and this constitutes Islam.

Imaan:
To believe in his books,angels, prophets...
Ihsan:
to worship Allah SWT as though he is front of you (metaphorically)
YouTube - Great Nasheed Amantu Billahi

[khushal]

Amazing how on this very thread no two Muslims have given you the same answer. As per my observations, it is not a matter of what you think about what Islam is. It is a matter of who you follow. In other words, you could say that you are following Islam as per you heart and efforts, but if someone disagrees with your form of Islam you are doomed. You are Hell bound, no ifs or buts about it.

At the end of the day it is all about which Muslim group is the strongest and the most influential, because I don't buy it that it is a matter of the heart. NO WAY, JOSE! It is a matter of the approval of people, and this thread and the members of this forum, just like everyday Muslims, have perfectly illustrated this view, without explicitly saying it.

How do I know? Most people here don't speak out when the member of another sect is being abused. People join in on the attack or they simply remain calm and don't defend the person whose beliefs are being abused.

I have to commend the effort of Qrratugai. I have learnt a lot from her. She seems to be able to hold on to her views, but also gives someone else the right to also call their faith correct. I wonder if there are more Muslims like her around?

Dust,
Go read a psycology book, That is a human thing not a muslim thing or islamic thing when people join in the attack like you say and they dont defend the one that gets abused. You say that others are irrational, bu you are the most irrational person on this forum.

You blame a religion when people fight or disagree or join in an attack. This is humanity and you are part of it wheather you like it or not. I am beginning to beleive you say these things to make yourself feel better by attacking a religion just because certain people have disagreements.

I suggest you go to one of those Tony Robbins seminars, he may get rid of the low self esteem you have.

[Dust]

^Here let me get to the crux of the matter.

Will you accept anyone as a Muslim who calls themselves a Muslim?

[Dust]

Dust,
Go read a psycology book, That is a human thing not a muslim thing or islamic thing when people join in the attack like you say and they dont defend the one that gets abused. You say that others are irrational, bu you are the most irrational person on this forum.

You blame a religion when people fight or disagree or join in an attack. This is humanity and you are part of it wheather you like it or not. I am beginning to beleive you say these things to make yourself feel better by attacking a religion just because certain people have disagreements.

I suggest you go to one of those Tony Robbins seminars, he may get rid of the low self esteem you have.

Very shallow post. Did you feel better with this post?

[Maiwand]

This verse appears in chapter 5, verse 51 of the Qur’an:

O, you who believe [in the message of Muhammad], do not take Jews and Christians as awliya’ . They are awliya’ to one another, and the one among you who turns to them is of them. Truly, God does not guide wrongdoing folk.

Meaning everyone who supports the crusaders/zionists in Afghansitan, is a murtad!!!

And we all know what the punnishment for apostacy is in Islam. Every major scholar agreed with this.

[Haneef]

Apostasy does not equate dead, this is your fantasy. It was applied only in certain times.

YouTube - Salman Rushdie, Apostasy and Khomeini's Fatwah

[Maiwand]

Apostasy does not equate dead, this is your fantasy. It was applied only in certain times.

YouTube - Salman Rushdie, Apostasy and Khomeini's Fatwah

There are disagreements between the scholars whether only the fact that someone becomes apostate has to be killed. But one thing that they all agree on, is that when a muslim apostates and he after that also supports the disbelievers against the muslim, with his advice, opinion, life, wealth or by fighting, then he is a combatant and should be killed. That's exactly happening in countries like Afghanistan, people who are working in the afghan army, goverment, police are supporting the crusaders against muslims by different means and are fighting side by side with the disbelievers (crusaders) against Islam and muslims. So that's why the Taliban are killing those people, because according to them they are apostates and combatants, so the law of the Shariah is very clear about those people.

[Haneef]

Who said that and where? can u show me where the 4 sunni schools states this about murtads?

[Maiwand]

Who said that and where? can u show me where the 4 sunni schools states this about murtads?

We can deduct this from the seerah (biography) of the prophet (pbuh) and from the verses of the Quran. Also Abu Bakr waged a war against a tribe who didn't want to pay the zakaat. Ibn Taymiya has also issues fatwa's against the muslims who supported the mongols, even though the Mongols said they were muslims, but they didn't rule with the Shariah. Later on when the crusaders attacked the muslim countries, every one who supported them was an apostate in the eyes of the muslims and they fought against them. When the Russians attacked Afghanistan, most of the scholars issued fatwa's urging the muslims to fight against the agressors and the apostate puppets supporting them. So this is an issue, where there is no disagreement among the sahaba, tabien, great scholars and mujahideen of today. The book of Allah (swt), the Quran is also very clear about this issue, read Surah At-Tawba for example and read the tafseer of it.

[Dust]

Finally, this is the discussion that I wanted to happen. Thank you Maiwand for being honest.

Khushal, now do you follow my train of thought?

[Haneef]

We can deduct this from the seerah (biography) of the prophet (pbuh) and from the verses of the Quran. Also Abu Bakr waged a war against a tribe who didn't want to pay the zakaat. Ibn Taymiya has also issues fatwa's against the muslims who supported the mongols, even though the Mongols said they were muslims, but they didn't rule with the Shariah. Later on when the crusaders attacked the muslim countries, every one who supported them was an apostate in the eyes of the muslims and they fought against them. When the Russians attacked Afghanistan, most of the scholars issued fatwa's urging the muslims to fight against the agressors and the apostate puppets supporting them. So this is an issue, where there is no disagreement among the sahaba, tabien, great scholars and mujahideen of today. The book of Allah (swt), the Quran is also very clear about this issue, read Surah At-Tawba for example and read the tafseer of it.

we can deduct this? what is your qualifications to deduct a ruling of killing on your own human beings? I said show me where in the 4 madhabs (sunni) this is allowed?