On Islam and rationality

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

In the West faith and religion is often seen as irrational. Generally, Western educated people feel the need to be apologetic because they are programmed to think negatively about religion.

This is due to the Wests problematic relationship with religion and the rise of secular liberalism. For centuries, the Church oppressed people and prevented progress in Europe.

During the reformation aside from religious reformation, scientists and philosophers gained freedom and managed to reform the thoughs and ideas of Europeans about everything.

Muslims didnt have the same experience and our tradition is very different from the European Christian tradition.

In Islam there is a place for the supernatural, the rational and the empirical. When we study the Qur'an we accept the fact that the book is not a book about natural science and therefore some of its content cannot be observed and examined by human beings. This is why the traditional sunni position is that Qur'an is a divine book and we don't try to rationalize all aspects of the book. We acknowledge that faith in Islam is partially based on supernatural matters.

Yet, in islam, we also have rationality. The Qur'an contains rational arguments and appeals to rationality of human beings. This is why Muslims have used logic as a science to derive rulings from the Qur'an in various legal matters.

Another aspect of Islam is based on the empirical. The Qur'an directs human beings to observe their environment and study it. This is why Muslims have always tried to develop techniques to increase their ability of observation of natural phenomena. Muslims did not invent natural science but they heavily contributed in developing its methods and techniques.

The latter made the European enlightenment possible because European scientists built on techniques they have learned from Muslim scientists.

We don't have the problematic experience with rationality and empirical science like the European Christians use to have back in the dark ages.

This is why centuries ago, Muslim scholars reached a consensus about the shape of the planet earth: Is the Earth Round? | Shaykh Abdul Azeez ibn Baz - YouTube

Observation of nature does not conflict with our belief in Qur'an. The Europeans however were unable to derive rulings about the nature of their environment by studying the nature because their religious authorities prohibited them from doing this. Their religious practice saw a conflict between what was observable and what was understood from religious scripture.

Thy is why after the reformation, Europe developed conflicting schools of thought. There was a school of rationalism led by the likes of Decartes and a school of empiricism led by the likes of David Hume.

Even today, the two conflicting schools of thought prevail in Western academia. Religion and theology no longer has any authority or any place in those realms.

It is therefore very difficult for Muslims growing up in the West to understand how to deal with religion, rationality and empirical sciences. From a very young age, children are programmed by the Western education system. Once they grow up, they simply reproduce what they have been thought.

It is therefore very important for Muslims to teach their children about our rich history and tradition through our own islamic education.

At the same time, we also have to acknowledge that as Muslims, we are going through our own dark ages right now because Muslims have seperated islamic studies from natural sciences and rationality in most countries around the world.

It is up to us to change our situation by returning back to a holistic approach to education where we study theology, rationality and natural sciences as complementary disciplines.

We need modern institutions of higher learning where our youth can benefit from our theological, ethical and legal tradition while they also specialize in various natural sciences.

The solution to our current problems is action and pro-active attitude. Islam was spread and reached its zenit as a civilization through action. Sadly, most Muslims in our day and age limit themselves to mere talks and debates glorification of our past without taking actual steps to make any positive difference. We need to change this attitude.

[Firdousi]

In the West faith and religion is often seen as irrational. Generally, Western educated people feel the need to be apologetic because they are programmed to think negatively about religion.

This is due to the Wests problematic relationship with religion and the rise of secular liberalism. For centuries, the Church oppressed people and prevented progress in Europe.

During the reformation aside from religious reformation, scientists and philosophers gained freedom and managed to reform the thoughs and ideas of Europeans about everything.

Muslims didnt have the same experience and our tradition is very different from the European Christian tradition.

In Islam there is a place for the supernatural, the rational and the empirical. When we study the Qur'an we accept the fact that the book is not a book about natural science and therefore some of its content cannot be observed and examined by human beings. This is why the traditional sunni position is that Qur'an is a divine book and we don't try to rationalize all aspects of the book. We acknowledge that faith in Islam is partially based on supernatural matters.

Yet, in islam, we also have rationality. The Qur'an contains rational arguments and appeals to rationality of human beings. This is why Muslims have used logic as a science to derive rulings from the Qur'an in various legal matters.

Another aspect of Islam is based on the empirical. The Qur'an directs human beings to observe their environment and study it. This is why Muslims have always tried to develop techniques to increase their ability of observation of natural phenomena. Muslims did not invent natural science but they heavily contributed in developing its methods and techniques.

The latter made the European enlightenment possible because European scientists built on techniques they have learned from Muslim scientists.

We don't have the problematic experience with rationality and empirical science like the European Christians use to have back in the dark ages.

This is why centuries ago, Muslim scholars reached a consensus about the shape of the planet earth: Is the Earth Round? | Shaykh Abdul Azeez ibn Baz - YouTube

Observation of nature does not conflict with our belief in Qur'an. The Europeans however were unable to derive rulings about the nature of their environment by studying the nature because their religious authorities prohibited them from doing this. Their religious practice saw a conflict between what was observable and what was understood from religious scripture.

Thy is why after the reformation, Europe developed conflicting schools of thought. There was a school of rationalism led by the likes of Decartes and a school of empiricism led by the likes of David Hume.

Even today, the two conflicting schools of thought prevail in Western academia. Religion and theology no longer has any authority or any place in those realms.

It is therefore very difficult for Muslims growing up in the West to understand how to deal with religion, rationality and empirical sciences. From a very young age, children are programmed by the Western education system. Once they grow up, they simply reproduce what they have been thought.

It is therefore very important for Muslims to teach their children about our rich history and tradition through our own islamic education.

At the same time, we also have to acknowledge that as Muslims, we are going through our own dark ages right now because Muslims have seperated islamic studies from natural sciences and rationality in most countries around the world.

It is up to us to change our situation by returning back to a holistic approach to education where we study theology, rationality and natural sciences as complementary disciplines.

We need modern institutions of higher learning where our youth can benefit from our theological, ethical and legal tradition while they also specialize in various natural sciences.

The solution to our current problems is action and pro-active attitude. Islam was spread and reached its zenit as a civilization through action. Sadly, most Muslims in our day and age limit themselves to mere talks and debates glorification of our past without taking actual steps to make any positive difference. We need to change this attitude.

You see thats main problem in the Islamic world: everything is a religious problem. What does a f*cking mullah know about science? About social issues? About complex economic and political issues? A mullah might be an authorized authority when it comes to matters of faith and morality but he shouldn't be taken seriously when it comes to science.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

You see thats main problem in the Islamic world: everything is a religious problem. What does a f*cking mullah know about science? About social issues? About complex economic and political issues? A mullah might be an authorized authority when it comes to matters of faith and morality but he shouldn't be taken seriously when it comes to science.

You are secularist. You think that being a mullah means you can't study natural sciences and say anything meaningful about it.

That's exactly the point I am trying to make in this thread. In islam, we don't make that distinction and our scholars are authorities in both theology and natural sciences.

The most prominent theologies of the past were also experts in various other sciences.

A colonized mind like yours may have difficulty understanding this but as muslims we don't see any conflict in being a theologian and a scientist.

[Firdousi]

You are secularist. You think that being a mullah means you can't study natural sciences and say anything meaningful about it.

That's exactly the point I am trying to make in this thread. In islam, we don't make that distinction and our scholars are authorities in both theology and natural sciences.

The most prominent theologies of the past were also experts in various other sciences.

A colonized mind like yours may have difficulty understanding this but as muslims we don't see any conflict in being a theologian and a scientist.

"In Islam we don't make..."

You are a takfiri like those Daeshi fools. Just because I disagree with your weird point of view you claim that I am not Muslim. You are the only kaffir here. You are the biggest murtadd basically because you are implying that those who say the shahada are not Muslims just because they disagree with you.

Middle Ages are gone. Now people specializes in one field. Knowledge is reachable for any human being. Thanks to modernity, something that you takfiri kaffirs reject, you don't need to admire Ibn Sina, you can actually become one.

Lets play your game: most of those prominent islamic scholars were Persians. Since you are not Persian, you can't become a scholar today. Why? Because back then only Persians were so smart. Since you want to apply old truths to modern issues you should stfu lol

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

"In Islam we don't make..."

You are a takfiri like those Daeshi fools. Just because I disagree with your weird point of view you claim that I am not Muslim. You are the only kaffir here. You are the biggest murtadd basically because you are implying that those who say the shahada are not Muslims just because they disagree with you.

Middle Ages are gone. Now people specializes in one field. Knowledge is reachable for any human being. Thanks to modernity, something that you takfiri kaffirs reject, you don't need to admire Ibn Sina, you can actually become one.

Lets play your game: most of those prominent islamic scholars were Persians. Since you are not Persian, you can't become a scholar today. Why? Because back then only Persians were so smart. Since you want to apply old truths to modern issues you should stfu lol

^ You see kids, this guy is a perfect example of what secular liberal westernized 'muslims' are like. Observe this specimen and take notes. This is what don't want to be like.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

It is possible for a Mullah to be a Scientist and Scientist to be a Mullah, but a Mullah is not a Scientist and Scientist is not a Mullah.

To say that what a Mullah says is on par with what a scientist says about Science is absurd. Teaching people the virtues of a miswak does not qualify you to discuss Evolutionary Biology. Likewise I don't go to a Physiciststo teach me the complexities of Usul.

If someone is an 3alim al Deen and had a doctorate in the Natural Science and they can somehow show the interplay between the subjects in a credible way. I'll listen. But don't portray 3alim in religious demogogy as being in the same category as a 3alim in Science or vice versa.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

^ You see kids, this guy is a perfect example of what secular liberal westernized 'muslims' are like. Observe this specimen and take notes. This is what don't want to be like.

I'd rather Muslims be like Firdousi than be like this.

[کیش]

Muslims are too lazy to come to Juma prayer before the Adhaan, and you're expecting them to built a civilization? I think they're content to being subordinates to you know who.

[Porus]

This is due to the Wests problematic relationship with religion and the rise of secular liberalism. For centuries, the Church oppressed people and prevented progress in Europe.

What's wrong with Secular liberalism? All it means is separation between religion and state, not favouring or against religion in general. Every religious group benefits from this setup.

In Islam there is a place for the supernatural, the rational and the empirical. When we study the Qur'an we accept the fact that the book is not a book about natural science and therefore some of its content cannot be observed and examined by human beings. This is why the traditional sunni position is that Qur'an is a divine book and we don't try to rationalize all aspects of the book. We acknowledge that faith in Islam is partially based on supernatural matters.

You can actually study the Quran rationally, all you'd have to do is take into context how the Quran was revealed. Most atheists are in favour of that. Richard Dawkins mentioned that he supports teaching the Bible as literature and history, same goes for the Quran, it's an important document for historians.

Yet, in islam, we also have rationality. The Qur'an contains rational arguments and appeals to rationality of human beings. This is why Muslims have used logic as a science to derive rulings from the Qur'an in various legal matters.

If the Quran was really interested in empiricism, it wouldn't make claims that it can't prove; birds carrying stones to pelt on the Kuffar army (Surat ul-Fil), Mohammad flying on a winged horse to heaven, Angel Gabriel coming down to reveal the truth to the Prophet are all abstract claims with no basis.

Another aspect of Islam is based on the empirical. The Qur'an directs human beings to observe their environment and study it. This is why Muslims have always tried to develop techniques to increase their ability of observation of natural phenomena. Muslims did not invent natural science but they heavily contributed in developing its methods and techniques.

That might be true, but none of what individual Muslim scientists did has anything to do with the Quran. Science is science. You can't apply the Quran to the scientific method.

Observation of nature does not conflict with our belief in Qur'an. The Europeans however were unable to derive rulings about the nature of their environment by studying the nature because their religious authorities prohibited them from doing this. Their religious practice saw a conflict between what was observable and what was understood from religious scripture.

Can you give an example? I don't understand how Quranic or Biblical methods need to be employed to understand 'nature'.

Even today, the two conflicting schools of thought prevail in Western academia. Religion and theology no longer has any authority or any place in those realms.

That's why they have moved ahead. Explain one benefit from mixing Islam and Science together. Often times Islam and science will have conflicting conclusions and for obvious reasons science will trump Islam. Islam carries with it antiquated knowledge from the 6th Century and whatever we know now, will be more accurate and dated compared to the claims in Islam.

It is therefore very difficult for Muslims growing up in the West to understand how to deal with religion, rationality and empirical sciences. From a very young age, children are programmed by the Western education system. Once they grow up, they simply reproduce what they have been thought.

It is therefore very important for Muslims to teach their children about our rich history and tradition through our own islamic education.

At the same time, we also have to acknowledge that as Muslims, we are going through our own dark ages right now because Muslims have seperated islamic studies from natural sciences and rationality in most countries around the world.

It is up to us to change our situation by returning back to a holistic approach to education where we study theology, rationality and natural sciences as complementary disciplines.

We need modern institutions of higher learning where our youth can benefit from our theological, ethical and legal tradition while they also specialize in various natural sciences.

The solution to our current problems is action and pro-active attitude. Islam was spread and reached its zenit as a civilization through action. Sadly, most Muslims in our day and age limit themselves to mere talks and debates glorification of our past without taking actual steps to make any positive difference. We need to change this attitude.

I don't really understand the gist of your post. On the one hand you hate secular education and think it's not enough for our Muslim youth, on the other you mention that we're in the dark-ages by glorifying our past (which is exactly what you were just doing).

At the end of the day, if there's anything positive that the West HAS offered to Muslims, it is precisely the secular thought that we can become inspired from. As you've mentioned, many contributions were made to modern science and philosophy by Muslims which were later absorbed by the Europeans. Why can't we Muslims do the same? Instead of preaching secularism a Western invention let's look at it's advantages; we can study science objectively without the interference of religion, we can live together cohesively as multi-religious societies and ultimately no law will be determined through antiquated texts. Rather they'll be determined by common people. It's a much better evolutionary path.

I don't think Islam has NO place in society, it certainly will continue to have its place even in a secular system. Secular doesn't mean anti-religion. It means you have the freedom to criticise ideas like religion. I guess that's unfortunate for fundamentalist Muslims who prefer to silence those who speak against Islam, but that's too bad.

[Firdousi]

^ You see kids, this guy is a perfect example of what secular liberal westernized 'muslims' are like. Observe this specimen and take notes. This is what don't want to be like.

You are hurting my feelings, bruv.

[Firdousi]

What's wrong with Secular liberalism? All it means is separation between religion and state, not favouring or against religion in general. Every religious group benefits from this setup.



.

Why it should benefit every religious group? Why should Taoism have the same status in Afghanistan than Islam? I don't want every region to have the same status. I want them to have rights, I want the state to protect those who have a different religion, but proselytism. Majoritarianism should be a priority for every country.

Liberalism is a Western phenomenon. Only in the West most of the people follow liberalism. In the rest of the World its a nonexistent thing. Liberalism creates weak people, destroys societies and leads to cultural confusion. I do agree it has many good things but in the long term its harmful.

[Porus]

Why it should benefit every religious group? Why should Taoism have the same status in Afghanistan than Islam? I don't want every region to have the same status. I want them to have rights, I want the state to protect those who have a different religion, but proselytism. Majoritarianism should be a priority for every country.

By that logic Muslims should not be given the same rights in the West as non-Muslims. Come on, in an ever increasing globalised world, that kind of thinking won't get you nowhere.

Majoritarianism. This is an interesting one. Let's assume you live in Germany. Pegida's ideology gets a majority following. Would you be prepared to agree (that in theory) if the majority of Germans wanted Muslims to leave and could vote on it, they have the democratic right to do that?

Liberalism is a Western phenomenon. Only in the West most of the people follow liberalism. In the rest of the World its a nonexistent thing. Liberalism creates weak people, destroys societies and leads to cultural confusion. I do agree it has many good things but in the long term its harmful.

Explain how. We haven't even defined what liberalism is.

[Firdousi]

By that logic Muslims should not be given the same rights in the West as non-Muslims. Come on, in an ever increasing globalised world, that kind of thinking won't get you nowhere.

Majoritarianism. This is an interesting one. Let's assume you live in Germany. Pegida's ideology gets a majority following. Would you be prepared to agree (that in theory) if the majority of Germans wanted Muslims to leave and could vote on it, they have the democratic right to do that?



Explain how. We haven't even defined what liberalism is.

We don't live in "an ever increasing globalized world", brother. We live in an ever increasing interconnected world. Those who created this modern Liberal Order, Brits and Americans, voted for Brexit and Trump, they voted for isolationism. Globalization as we know so far is doomed.

Western countries should remain as Western countries. Muslims need to adapt and respect their host countries and not the other way around. This logic should apply in every country. Western lefties with their social liberalism are always creating special minority groups with privileges in order to p iss off right wing: gays, women, Muslims/immigrants, shemales,.. and so on. Majoritarianism doesn't mean oppressing minorities it means that majority has some sort of primacy over minorities. I am find with that.

There is no need for Pegida to ask Muslims to leave. I, as a Muslim, would gladly send back to their countries many Muslims. Those who are all the day b itching and moaning, those who are making trouble, those who are unwilling to respect their host countries, must be kicked out.

It depends what do you mean by "liberalism". We have economic and social liberalism (progressive stances I mean). We all know the difference between both.

[Khostai]

I hear this "Golden age of Islam" so many times. But how advanced were the Islamic countries in that time?

Did they had stable goverments
Clean water and good sewege system?
Universal education? Or at least promoted education for all?
Rights for minorities?
Freedom of taught or freedom to question?

And what were the advancement that they made, and I am not talking about the translation of greek works, but their own contribution?

[Porus]

We don't live in "an ever increasing globalized world", brother. We live in an ever increasing interconnected world. Those who created this modern Liberal Order, Brits and Americans, voted for Brexit and Trump, they voted for isolationism. Globalization as we know so far is doomed.

That's what I was getting at, although as far as Brexit is concerned there are speculations that the decision might be overturned with another referendum. Plus both Brexit and Trump weren't cases of significant majority vs small minority.

Western countries should remain as Western countries. Muslims need to adapt and respect their host countries and not the other way around. This logic should apply in every country. Western lefties with their social liberalism are always creating special minority groups with privileges in order to p iss off right wing: gays, women, Muslims/immigrants, shemales,.. and so on. Majoritarianism doesn't mean oppressing minorities it means that majority has some sort of primacy over minorities. I am find with that.

Why does the right-wing have a special privilege to deny rights to the aforementioned groups? The same right wing fascists in our countries refuse to condemn the killings of minority groups for their own personal benefit. Again, if the majority wanted Muslims out in a European country, would you support that decision? Would you say that's a legitimate thing to do?

There is no need for Pegida to ask Muslims to leave. I, as a Muslim, would gladly send back to their countries many Muslims. Those who are all the day b itching and moaning, those who are making trouble, those who are unwilling to respect their host countries, must be kicked out.

I personally don't think organisations like Pegida or EDL are in the business of targeting specific Muslims that 'bitch and moan' about Britain. Also, implying that anyone who bitches and moans about their country is a fascist and therefore must be prosecuted. It almost sounds like authoritarianism to me.

It depends what do you mean by "liberalism". We have economic and social liberalism (progressive stances I mean). We all know the difference between both.

I was asking what you meant. You said liberalism has failed, and I guess you mean social liberalism. I don't think it's failed. I think the world is slowly becoming more and more fascist.