Rethinking Islamic Reform

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

So then what is the correct Islam? To go around murdering innocents, promoting the degradation and beating of women etc?

If you think that Islam can be either promoting secular liberalism or wanton killing and murdering, then you have obviously a very western perception of Islam.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

Be humble.

How ironic. "be humble" haha

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

Thats one of the most ridiculous explanation of Takfir I have ever seen.

And you provide no explanation as to why from any mainstream Sunni source from the 4 accepted Sunni Madhha'ib

Something that is very common among the Khawarij.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

And you provide no explanation as to why from any mainstream Sunni source from the 4 accepted Sunni Madhha'ib

Something that is very common among the Khawarij.

I can provide sources for anything I claim about Islam from 4 schools of jurisprudence. Just like I did when I declared Tariq Jameel a Kaafir.

The question is, do you accept the 4 schools when they conflict with your mu'tazili secular liberal version of islam?

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

He makes outrageous claims and runs away when questioned in the most simplest ways, he did it with the rumi thing and now in this topic. This could either be arrogance or ignorance. Arrogance: "I'm to good to answer people" .. Ignorance: "I don't really know why I said that, I have no solid reference" .. Either way one should not even bring the subject up or even speak if they we not willing to bring the conversations THEY START to a conclusion of some sort.

You and Iblis are both illiterate in Farsi. You expect me to translate farsi poems into English so that you can judge if its gay or not. That's probably one of the dumbest things imaginable. I have better things to do with my time.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

I can provide sources for anything I claim about Islam from 4 schools of jurisprudence. Just like I did when I declared Tariq Jameel a Kaafir.

This thread isn't about me or what I believe, this is about the content of the video and the exposition these men presented in their thesis, and the accusations you levy against these men on that basis. You have failed to show that the 4 Madhha'ib's descrption of takfir matches yours or that my description is errant in light of theirs and you failed that it applies to Shaikh Hamza Yusuf and Tariq Ramadan.

As an added bonus, if you references come from scholars who follow Khawari sources, this would not be acceptable according to the 4 Sunni Madhha'ib. As Ibn Abidin declared affirmed in Radd Al Mukhtar, the follows of Muhammad Ibn 'Abdul Wahhab are Khawarij and not Sunni.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

This thread isn't about me or what I believe, this is about the content of the video and the exposition these men presented in their thesis, and the accusations you levy against these men on that basis. You have failed to show that the 4 Madhha'ib's descrption of takfir matches yours or that my description is errant in light of theirs and you failed that it applies to Shaikh Hamza Yusuf and Tariq Ramadan.

As an added bonus, if you references come from scholars who follow Khawari sources, this would not be acceptable according to the 4 Sunni Madhha'ib. As Ibn Abidin declared affirmed in Radd Al Mukhtar, the follows of Muhammad Ibn 'Abdul Wahhab are Khawarij and not Sunni.

You are not answering my question. Do you accept matters of consensus between 4 schools if it conflicts with your mu'tazili secular liberal version of Islam?

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

You are not answering my question. Do you accept matters of consensus between 4 schools if it conflicts with your mu'tazili secular liberal version of Islam?

Your question is irrelevant .....it's a diversion tactic to obfuscate things. Now are you going to show on what basis you takfir these gentlemen?

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

Your question is irrelevant .....it's a diversion tactic to obfuscate things. Now are you going to show on what basis you takfir these gentlemen?

By dodging the question, you prove that you don't accept the 4 schools. Hamza Yusuf and Tariq Ramadan are both kaafir. If you want to discuss their kufr, we can do that but you have to accept the 4 schools, the ijmaa of the great imams, the sahaba & tab'ieen. If you are going o abide by your Mu'tazili secular liberal principles, then there is no need for me to waste my time.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

By dodging the question, you prove that you don't accept the 4 schools. Hamza Yusuf and Tariq Ramadan are both kaafir. If you want to discuss their kufr, we can do that but you have to accept the 4 schools, the ijmaa of the great imams, the sahaba & tab'ieen. If you are going o abide by your Mu'tazili secular liberal principles, then there is no need for me to waste my time.

No by avoiding the question; I'm making you focus on your necessity to provide evidence that these men are kafir. It should not depend on me as we're speaking objectively about a topic.

Which you still haven't done! You're side stepping ......which means until you provide evidence, you lack evidence that support your claim.It's cowardly attempt at backing down. And Na'adhubillah, you're doing this during Ramadan ...Itaqo Allah

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

No by avoiding the question; I'm making you focus on your necessity to provide evidence that these men are kafir. It should not depend on me as we're speaking objectively about a topic.

Which you still haven't done! You're side stepping ......which means until you provide evidence, you lack evidence that support your claim.It's cowardly attempt at backing down. And Na'adhubillah, you're doing this during Ramadan ...Itaqo Allah

In other words, you are a secular liberal mu'tazili who is only here promoting Yusuf & Ramadan just because what they say support your own views and beliefs, not because they preach traditional orthodox mainstream Islam.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

In other words, you are a secular liberal mu'tazili who is only here promoting Yusuf & Ramadan just because what they say support your own views and beliefs, not because they preach traditional orthodox mainstream Islam.

You're side stepping again; where is your evidence against Tariq Ramadan and Hamza Yusuf ...and please explain takfir according to the 4 Madhha'ib

Neither of these claims depend on me ...no need to divert focus

Have some Ghairat please.

[Manzareh]

You and Iblis are both illiterate in Farsi. You expect me to translate farsi poems into English so that you can judge if its gay or not. That's probably one of the dumbest things imaginable. I have better things to do with my time.

c'mon now you cant be as busy as you make out bro, if you're on a forum every single day you have the time for that also.

You clearly want to educate people on a subject out of a sincere intention, ok then if you are going to the effort of posting something why not provide a translation also, whats the point of giving half a reference, one half in English and the proof in Persian. If you do not do this then you are assuming everyone will just take your word for it, but you are simply not credible enough. So how is translating you're claim one of the dumbest things imaginable? the dumbest thing imaginable is blindly trusting some guy on the internet that is dehumanising a renown molana.

[Manzareh]

when I declared Tariq Jameel a Kaafir.

hahaha oh you declared him, under the authority of Sheikh Ud-Deen Shamlawar al Khurasani ibn Haq. I see

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

c'mon now you cant be as busy as you make out bro, if you're on a forum every single day you have the time for that also.

You clearly want to educate people on a subject out of a sincere intention, ok then if you are going to the effort of posting something why not provide a translation also, whats the point of giving half a reference, one half in English and the proof in Persian. If you do not do this then you are assuming everyone will just take your word for it, but you are simply not credible enough. So how is translating you're claim one of the dumbest things imaginable? the dumbest thing imaginable is blindly trusting some guy on the internet that is dehumanising a renown molana.

And he doesn't even need to translate EVERY poem, just the ones that elucidate his thesis, and even then just the parts he feels demonstrate homosexuality.


Shamlawar is very intellectually dishonest.