Morality is not tied to any particular religion

[IamDZJ]

thanks for making the polls public.

[Mutakhasis]

Morality is not tied to ANY religion or ONLY religion. Our moral values are a complex mixture of different variables such as culture, religion, family, social background etc. There is no perfect moral system in the world as it's a highly subjective concept.Something which is moral in one part of the world can be completely immoral in another. The best morality system would be the one which offers compassion to the humanity alike, keeping aside the differences.(when you see someone bleeding after being hit by a car, you don't ask him/her about the faith/religion.Your obligation (basic instinct) , that you feel (if you do) is to save the life of the HUMAN!)
Many 'moral' values today could be considered 'Universal' values--Killing a human is fobidden in Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, Jainism, Hinduism and many other faiths including the athiesm, so why should we think that our moral values are a product of religion exclusively!Similarly, speaking truth, taking care of parents, teaching good things etc are found in all cultures (Muslim or Non-muslim, pashtuns or non-Pashtuns, developed/undeveloped etc)
The 'sense' to differentiate between GOOD and BAD is not limited to humans.Even animals can instinctively can take out the fellow animal from danger. Who taught the animals to do the GOOD?

That makes no sense, how can morality be a highly subjective concept if it's part of human nature?

Hahah you're a confused person, can you please give references , thank you

What's known, there's only three major schools of thought on this, one being that morality is a biological adoption, second being that there's no such thing as morality at all "there is no such thing as good or bad everything is matter" and third that religious architecture

Subjective morality is feign upon social pressure, that's flawed and illogical

Objective morality is true as the existence of a Creator (al Khaaliq)

You rejecting objective morality, is equal as rejecting the existence of a Creator, if you believe in a Creator, you must believe in objective morality

Simple as that

[PFgulalai]

Oh deera Manana Shlombay!

As I mentioned in my earliest post, a particular moral belief system is a congregation of cultural, religious, social values etc. which act as different variables to different degrees. For some people, 'religious beliefs' are the ONLY moral beliefs and so religion becomes the ONLY variable and they develop that as their standard.Others take a fair share of all the variables and then standardize their values (interpretations) accordingly.

For instance, those having a religious belief system (from moral system point of view) will consider it a grave sin if you do not wear HIJAB (Arab style thing) since the standard form of 'Purdah' for them is wearing HIJAB (HIJAB signifying more religiousness, or true muslim-ness, or MORE MORALITY). For others, wearing the Shuttlecock Burqa might have the same effect.Still others won't care about wearing burqas but would ask you to modestly dress--meaning covering your body...others would just ask you to cover private parts...they will still consider you as morally superior to those who are wearing Burqas!! Because since prehistoric times, covering private body parts is a standard. Later on, people moved to more or less skin-show.

The latter examples follow a moral belief system which is acceptable to a particular soceity. Since prehistoric times, the various societies of the world have evolved a set of social standards/values which are independent of religion. Examples include the universal values, for instance forbidding murders of innocent people. No soceity, whether religious or non-religious, has legalized rape or other heinous acts.

At times both systems are overlapping since things are similar in both/or are mixed to make the system attractive and acceptable... and so the exact demarcation becomes absurd.Nonetheless, if one looks carefully, one can conclude that those holding the religious-moral belief system gauge every thing from the religious perspective (e.g whether you have read Quran rather than reading The God's Delusion). On the contrary, those holding the basic moral system belief dervies many things rooted in the culture/soceity which are acceptable standards of the prevailing times (e.g.Reading books is good-no matter if it Quran or The God's Delusion).

Did you get my point now? I can elaborate futher

Gulalai I am interested in your views, can you elaborate further on what you mean by not the only variable?


-Thanks

[inqilab]

lol this chick is really out of her mind. i do not think she even knows what morality is. If you think morality is subjective. Than there is no such thing as right or wrong. Everything is based upon desire. And it is highly unlikely a person will put their desires under restrain. So to even think morality as a subjective thing is pretty insane. And if everything is matter. Than what does it even matter? lol

People coming up with their own little crooked theories. I guess every circus needs a clown.

[PFgulalai]

"how can morality be a highly subjective concept if it's part of human nature? "
Mutakhasis, MORALITY IS SUBJECTIVE (MORAL RELATIVISM) since it changes from one human to other, form one culture to other, from one religion to the other one.No two individuals, even born to same parents, have the EXACT SAME moral standards. Something which is a BIG sin for you might not be that BIG SIN for your sibling even though you both have same upbringing! Please read moral relativism!

Hahah you're a confused person, can you please give references , thank you
I might be talking nonsense. But you even did not get my point and rather than calling yourself confused, you are tagging me as one,lol. btw, a confused mind is better than a stagnant one...at least I irritated you to break that status quo!

What's known, there's only three major schools of thought on this, one being that morality is a biological adoption, second being that there's no such thing as morality at all "there is no such thing as good or bad everything is matter" and third that religious architecture

there is no such thing as good or bad everything is matter"

Exactly!!because Morality is subjective..something good for you might be bad for others..which actually is the aim of morality on the contrary, telling you what is good or what is bad...

Subjective morality is feign upon social pressure, that's flawed and illogical

Whoa!! you are actually falsifying the entire concept/knowledge of subjective morality...Please read Moral Relativism. Yes once again, our moral values are always under sever social pressure. For instance, women are more under scrutiny than men when it comes to issues of modesty..but calling them flawed/illogical??

third that religious architecture

No one is denying the effect of religion on our moral values. My point is that there are those who have a completely religious moral belif system compared to those having a moral belief system.Another thing that you should remember is that religion came very late in the of evolutionary process of Human Morality. Religious moral belief systems do incorporate a fair share of the existing moral belief system.

Objective morality is true as the existence of a Creator (al Khaaliq)

Or were you alluding to MORAL OBJECTIVISM? MORAL UNIVERSALISM? LOL...

Disclaimer: Khalqoo...the stuff that I am saying is not my OWN theories..they are all in books...my sin is that I read those books!

That makes no sens
e, how can morality
be a highly subjective concept if it's part of human nature?

Hahah you're a confused person, can you please give references , thank you

What's known, there's only three major schools of thought on this, one being that morality is a biological adoption, second being that there's no such thing as morality at all "there is no such thing as good or bad everything is matter" and third that religious architecture

Subjective morality is feign upon social pressure, that's flawed and illogical

Objective morality is true as the existence of a Creator (al Khaaliq)

You rejecting objective morality, is equal as rejecting the existence of a Creator, if you believe in a Creator, you must believe in objective morality

Simple as that

[PFgulalai]

Chick? laka chi CHERGAY BAACHAY...sook ta ye? sta pa kor ki zanana shtaa..laka CHERGAY shtaa?? Plar and mor sta chergoo na khabar de??

Da stasu morality kho mata dey 'chergay' na pata oolageeda.. patay shoo, subjectivity and objectivity...no I request you to please go and read some nice book on Meta-ETHICS and then we will talk.

I am not in those females who would sit quite after Pushtana sare like you would insult openly...ta laa zaan ta Pashtun waye..

Go and learn some manners..at least learn something from "moral objectivity of the creator"...

yo kho chi bus sok Jinay lagi ukhwa dekhwaa (in your eyes) khabaree oki, no da sta parangi Pashtunao saroo bande sa chal oshee..au bya warta da morality ghar oodray....SO WHAT??? ta mana pa sa moral ye? Ta kum dase chergaye khwarale di chi ma na de khwarale...ya ta kum dase janatoona gatalee de, chi kum ma sara nista...

Za maraa...

Seriously!! HUH!!

lol this chick is really out of her mind. i do not think she even knows what morality is. If you think morality is subjective. Than there is no such thing as right or wrong. Everything is based upon desire. And it is highly unlikely a person will put their desires under restrain. So to even think morality as a subjective thing is pretty insane. And if everything is matter. Than what does it even matter? lol

People coming up with their own little crooked theories. I guess every circus needs a clown.

[Roshina]

Chick? laka chi CHERGAY BAACHAY...sook ta ye? sta pa kor ki zanana shtaa..laka CHERGAY shtaa?? Plar and mor sta chergoo na khabar de??

Da stasu morality kho mata dey 'chergay' na pata oolageeda.. patay shoo, subjectivity and objectivity...no I request you to please go and read some nice book on Meta-ETHICS and then we will talk.

I am not in those females who would sit quite after Pushtana sare like you would insult openly...ta laa zaan ta Pashtun waye..

Go and learn some manners..at least learn something from "moral objectivity of the creator"...

yo kho chi bus sok Jinay lagi ukhwa dekhwaa (in your eyes) khabaree oki, no da sta parangi Pashtunao saroo bande sa chal oshee..au bya warta da morality ghar oodray....SO WHAT??? ta mana pa sa moral ye? Ta kum dase chergaye khwarale di chi ma na de khwarale...ya ta kum dase janatoona gatalee de, chi kum ma sara nista...

Za maraa...

Seriously!! HUH!!

Gulalai Jaaney!

It is the mark of an ignorant, weak, shallow, and insecure mind to call you "little girl," "kid," "chick," etc. when you silence it with a brilliant response! You've proven to be a girl with a brain, and this is not all that common; as you said, the moment you speak up and say something that's not the norm for a female to say, you'll be told these things.

Shame on those who resort to such behavior!
What you're saying them "doesn't make sense" to them because it makes too much sense for them to realize it. AND you dared to think! Oh no.

But you, you be wary of it and just know that you just said something really smart to compel them to say such a thing to you. And continue being yourself and expressing your views! To hell with the claim that all Pukhtuns and all Muslims believe the same way.

[erlangner]

Very simple. I believe that all religions before and after islam came into field with moralities. If we study the history of all religions, Qrattugai can know better in this forum, these started bringing the people to high moralities. As in this forum most of us are muslims (although many non-muslims declared by some fanatics) and we have studied the history of islam more than any other religion. Islam came into Arab where Arabs were at lowest of their moralities. Same christianity, jewism and all prophets of Bani Israel were preaching morality and one ness of GOd. Why one-ness of God, because it was the better source to bring people towards high morality. In our egion, hinduism, sikhism, bahai, ahmadis, budgmat are all based on maralities.

However where is the problem?
That followers of the reliong dont follow the codes of their religions.
In such a case then different societies, countries, organizations can set the moral standards and they follow these and are nicely proceeding.
Whenever Religion was brought to politics, it worked for sometimes, but in politics morality standards are different, then it was posioned.
Although Muhammad iqbal, the urdu poets says:

Juda ho deen siasat se, to reh jati hae changeezi.

However his this belief is proved wrong, and today secualr countries with set moral codes in form of their consititutions and laws are doing well.
Now, how these laws helps in developing personal moral characters,
I am living in Germany and I consider majority of german are much much better than pakistani muslims in moralities, although most of them are not the followers of any religion. Why because they are taught and the society is acting accordingly, and if anyone does not follow, he may be punished without any pressure.
In my mind, moralities came from religions but can be followed and set high without religion as well.
It depends how much the society accept it. Social acceptance is the main thing, and social acceptance comes through laws, which taught the socieites what is good and what is bad.

[شمله ور خراساني]

karl marx was not a rational thinker

[erlangner]

How is it proved wrong? Hundreds of thousands of abortions take place in the western world daily which is basically murder. How is that right?

You are basically repeating what Neitzche said, that God is dead and we don't need him anymore (if he existed in the first place).

One thing you have to know is that what society ultimately decides to be moral is not decided for the overall well being of society but its decided by the elite group within the society who have the power and the resources. If you ask majority of people about pornography they will tell you it should be banned because its immoral and filthy but because its a huge business, the powerful always try to justify as a form of freedom. So at the end what is moral and right is not followed but what fills the pockets of elites and big companies is followed at the expense of our morality.

Unfortunately this is a big misconception that society decides what is right and wrong. The truth is if you look harder its always the powerful and their friends and prostitutes who are determining the path the society follows. Read up on social engineering and I recommend a book called "Voltaire's *******s" to further undrestand this point.

Without laws which limit the power of elites we will always be slaves to them. Religion if properly implemented limits their power since they are all under the law of God but if you remove God from the equation, you are left with men who will shape your destinies. Philosphers like Michavelli, Carl Marx and the rest of the so called rational thinkers have all help remove God from the equation so powerful men are free to rule over us.

I can say that in west abortion is considered very bad, but it is a common practice in the most religious societies like muslims and hindus of indian sub-continents.
My dear, Can you give me any example of functional islamic laws in any part of the world. We have to live a real life, not in dreams, ya just exemplify one society, country, organization or any thiing where I can see Islamic laws are functional.
Just come towards practicla things.

[Khushal Khan Khattak]

Here is what Muslims believe:

All human morality stems from the guiding light of God himself. The partial forms of it that we see in religions other than Islam were that same guiding light of God himself. In essence, it is this very God (Allah, Yahweh, Aadoney) that has guided us. But, these religions other than Islam are nothing but the perverted and corrupted forms of the original true religion of mankind, i.e. Islam. So, the highest morality IS tied to Islam only.

[erlangner]

you did not point out where are islamic laws functional today? just an example is needed.

[Khushal Khan Khattak]

you did not point out where are islamic laws functional today? just an example is needed.

Laughing at us for not being able to implement them completely? or as a Muslim Afghan (I dunno about your status so I am guessing) are you laughing at your own self???

Here's a question for you?

Do you want them? do you consider them as God's laws? Have you done any strife for their establishment?

Or are you here just to laugh.

They are present and functional partially throughout the Muslim world.

[PFgulalai]

Thanks for the condemnation and 'moral' support :P
I owe you a lot!
I am aware of this particular 'breed' of individuals who often resolve to such uncivilized behavior with the aim of breaking the morale of the opponent which, unfortunately, never happens.
Having a difference of opinion on an issue is inevitable.But spoiling a healthy discussion with one's distasteful and offensive remarks leaves a bad taste in the mouth. If you can't defend yourself, accept the opponent's viewpoint or stop it in a civilized manner.Resolving to such unncessary verbal abuse is a lousy play.

Of course, I am here and not leaving...let's paint the (PF) town red

Gulalai Jaaney!

It is the mark of an ignorant, weak, shallow, and insecure mind to call you "little girl," "kid," "chick," etc. when you silence it with a brilliant response! You've proven to be a girl with a brain, and this is not all that common; as you said, the moment you speak up and say something that's not the norm for a female to say, you'll be told these things.

Shame on those who resort to such behavior!
What you're saying them "doesn't make sense" to them because it makes too much sense for them to realize it. AND you dared to think! Oh no.

But you, you be wary of it and just know that you just said something really smart to compel them to say such a thing to you. And continue being yourself and expressing your views! To hell with the claim that all Pukhtuns and all Muslims believe the same way.

[PFgulalai]

Thanks for the enlightenment, enlangner. Indeed, a nice one!

A number of sociologists, anthrapologists, and psychologists have argued that religion is the progeny of already-existing morality system.If one looks at the evolution of religion, one will notice that religion offered great social and psycological protection to the individuals by introducing supernatural beings. The humans were brainwashed that they are always under the radar. That there is a watchful/careful god(s), shaman, spirit, fire, wind, snake, thunderstorm, and JINN.This helped humans to start organizing societies governed by their evolving standards...by chalking out various codes/standards suitable to their own needs (which could be unsuitable in someone else's case).

So the role of religion in manipulating/transforming/shaping the already existing human morality framework can't be ignored.The basic reason for the success of 'organized' religion is/was the inculcation of the fear in the minds of humans. The degree to incorporate the religion in everyday practice of morality is HIGHLY varied.Therefore, for some of us religion is one of the components of morality amongst the others; others would think religion is the ONLY component; still others give an equal share to all components. If religion was the sole component, why on the earth we have such diverse moral systems?

You make an excellent point by mentioning that
"I consider majority of german are much much better than pakistani muslims in moralities, although most of them are not the followers of any religion. Why because they are taught and the society is acting accordingly, and if anyone does not follow, he may be punished without any pressure."

My question is: If morality emerged from the womb of religion, why your your German friends (and other infidels) appear more moral than the followers of religion?

Very simple. I believe that all religions before and after islam came into field with moralities. If we study the history of all religions, Qrattugai can know better in this forum, these started bringing the people to high moralities. As in this forum most of us are muslims (although many non-muslims declared by some fanatics) and we have studied the history of islam more than any other religion. Islam came into Arab where Arabs were at lowest of their moralities. Same christianity, jewism and all prophets of Bani Israel were preaching morality and one ness of GOd. Why one-ness of God, because it was the better source to bring people towards high morality. In our egion, hinduism, sikhism, bahai, ahmadis, budgmat are all based on maralities.

However where is the problem?
That followers of the reliong dont follow the codes of their religions.
In such a case then different societies, countries, organizations can set the moral standards and they follow these and are nicely proceeding.
Whenever Religion was brought to politics, it worked for sometimes, but in politics morality standards are different, then it was posioned.
Although Muhammad iqbal, the urdu poets says:

Juda ho deen siasat se, to reh jati hae changeezi.

However his this belief is proved wrong, and today secualr countries with set moral codes in form of their consititutions and laws are doing well.
Now, how these laws helps in developing personal moral characters,
I am living in Germany and I consider majority of german are much much better than pakistani muslims in moralities, although most of them are not the followers of any religion. Why because they are taught and the society is acting accordingly, and if anyone does not follow, he may be punished without any pressure.
In my mind, moralities came from religions but can be followed and set high without religion as well.
It depends how much the society accept it. Social acceptance is the main thing, and social acceptance comes through laws, which taught the socieites what is good and what is bad.