has Islam failed to change muslims?

[RevolutionThroughReason]

your the one with ****ty logic.
We are following your logic here. your the one that says what is not followed is flawed. Prostitution has always existed in all societies, it has never dissapeared, therefore there is no flaw in it. Those prostitutes must be pursueing what is better for their own welfare right. Oh wait maybe the pimps that are using them are pursueing what is better for their own welfare.
That bold statement in your post is exactly right. Its called monopolization motivated by greed. People are flawed, they use and abuse to pursue whatever is better for their own welfare. They'll screw the society for their own interests. What do you think ghandi was talking about, the British Empire was using the whole Indian subcontinent for their own welfare. The Indians that were allied with the Brits was using their own society for their own welfare.
All those dictators that ruling the middle east, they pursue what is better for their own welfare. The people that allow them to be dictators, allow them to dictate to them, allow them to be used and abused by them are flawed, not truth itself.
Because if we follow your logic, since most of the world is ruled by dictators, most of the population follows dictators, therefore the dictator system must have no flaws because people follow what is in their own best interests.

I never used the word flawed I said FAILED. Prostitution existing in all societies is irrelevant since Prostitutes don't attempt to Govern Society Islam does; your argument is weak analogy.

No that's your ASSUMPTION; not my Logic because I stated earlier that Secularism in the Middle East Failed and hence it was overthrown. So you're batting 00

Figures your counter response is purely a straw man; fabricate your own narrative then respond against that and make it seem like you actually rebutted my statements.


Yep ****ty logic as usual

[faye]

the islamic history i have been reading is as you say. it appears the same in it's downfall as all the imperialisms, where the corruption and mismanagement, especially from the leaders, creates rebellions and extreme opposition, ie wahhabism.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

the islamic history i have been reading is as you say. it appears the same in it's downfall as all the imperialisms, where the corruption and mismanagement, especially from the leaders, creates rebellions and extreme opposition, ie wahhabism.

right it was very flawed and sadly turbulent history; but claims like Muhammad had some expliotative cartel is nonsense and this is evidenced by numerous accounts, both Islamic and Non-Islamic. the cartelling of islam happened after the death of Muhammad(saw). Muahmmad whether divinely inspired/guiided or not, was legit by historical evidence.

the Khalifs ...that's another story

[faye]

fascinating read. all those different groups and tribes. i had to keep looking up who different groups were, to decipher which one was sunni and which shia.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

it's basically like this; different people wanted to divest power; Abu Bakr was legitimate in that he was not after personal power; but he definitely felt he was ordained to lead as he was elder. Umar opposed 'Ali because of dynastic tendencies and plans that 'Ali had. Uthman was an outright low life, he was a dynastic leader and according to Al-Tabari there is a chance that he arranged Umar's assasination. Since Uthman was an Ummaya, he wanted dynastic influence of his clan to take over. But 'Ali hated the Ummaya so he had him assasinated, which in return the Ummayahs regained power by massacring his son Husayn and his family.

and then you had the subgroups of people who just tagged along in hoping of riding the wave to divest their own power. like Abdullah ibn Sabaa was one of them; he rallied behind trying to lure people towards 'Ali and then tried to motivate the advent of a doomsday sect which he would lead based around 'Ali. It was quite interesting; his doctrines eventually formed the 'Alawite sect.



Islamic history is very complex

[khushal]

I never used the word flawed I said FAILED. Prostitution existing in all societies is irrelevant since Prostitutes don't attempt to Govern Society Islam does; your argument is weak analogy.

No that's your ASSUMPTION; not my Logic because I stated earlier that Secularism in the Middle East Failed and hence it was overthrown. So you're batting 00

Figures your counter response is purely a straw man; fabricate your own narrative then respond against that and make it seem like you actually rebutted my statements.


Yep ****ty logic as usual

You said something

Exactly, you stated facts, when something is not being applied, it failed to work.

if it fails to work, then it means there are flaws, which is what your implying

you also said the follwoing

Something that works is something that is followed.

you said "something" so prostitution is practiced so in your logic that means it works. Dictators are followed so in your logic that means it works.

yep, ****ty backtracking as usual.

[khushal]

fascinating read. all those different groups and tribes. i had to keep looking up who different groups were, to decipher which one was sunni and which shia.

[Breshna]

Exactly, you stated facts, when something is not being applied, it failed to work.

That's yours and Karachi's...belief.



My answer still is...Islam will never

fail if you truly live by...it.

[Karachi]

That's yours and Karachi's...belief.



My answer still is...Islam will never

fail if you truly live by...it.

Islam does work on individual level, If followed properly. I have seen that by my own eyes, so I am not doubting that.
But like some one said in this thread, that it has failed on the state or society level for many reasons mentioned in this thread

[Breshna]

Islam does work on individual level, If followed properly. I have seen that by my own eyes, so I am not doubting that.
But like some one said in this thread, that it has failed on the state or society level for many reasons mentioned in this thread

If an individual can do it...so can

a entire...society.

[Karachi]

If an individual can do it...so can

a entire...society.

That hasn't happened in the 1400 years of history of Islam though, after the prophet. How can a whole society do it? especially since every one thinks differently and has different wants and needs. Like I mentioned before, even forcing people wont make follow Islam

[Breshna]

That hasn't happened in the 1400 years of history of Islam though, after the prophet. How can a whole society do it? especially since every one thinks differently and has different wants and needs. Like I mentioned before, even forcing people wont make follow Islam

Since something hasn't...happened

for 1400...years.

How can you say it..failed?

Its society that...failed.

You can't force someone..to

revise for a..test and pass.

Same with Islam if..you don't

practice or live by...Islam.

How can you..pass?

[khushal]

he does not know what he is asking. he wants to know why the political system of Islam collapsed and why it has not risen up again? He should just read history.

[Karachi]

Since something hasn't...happened

for 1400...years.

How can you say it..failed?

Its society that...failed.

You can't force someone..to

revise for a..test and pass.

Same with Islam if..you don't

practice or live by...Islam.

How can you..pass?

well people in the past and even today clearly tried to implement Islam, yet they weren't successful, why?

The problem is you say it can be applied to the whole society, which is wrong in my opinion. it can only be applied to individuals who are looking for God and seeking a deeper meaning to life, yes to those individuals Islam was and is successful, but most people in this world are not like that, to them a system like Islam is a threat

[faye]

[QUOTE=khushal;639830]
i am glad you finally realised what i have been trying to tell you. even at your old age, you can increase your knowledge of the world.
keep up the good work, khushal. i give you 8/10, this week.
improve your writing and you'll get a higher mark.