has Islam failed to change muslims?

[khwazun]

surah and ayat? where in quran is this? i want to study its context. many things throughout torah, ingil, quran and hadith are used or interpretted outside of their intended context by a variety of people with personal agendas. i always study the scripture preceding and following to try to understand the larger picture of what is being depicted.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

it's Surah Al Rum verse 30

I aghree Khwazun, like those people who say that Islam teaches fighting natural instincts, they're actually taking statements in the Qur'an and Hadith out of context.

[khushal]

Then you're in effect verifying the statement in Karachi's subject line. Something that works is something that is followed.

Actually it was followed at one time, but people lost focus. Like all political, social, and economic systems which have worked in the past fail because people fail, they lose focus of them.
Take for example, the bill of rights(which are thousands of years old) have worked for over 200 years in the US. Well lately, people have lost focus and are allowing the corrupt to curb them. Does this mean the bill of rights are flawed, no, it means humanity itself is flawed. If humanity was perfect, we would not need Islam or the bill of rights.

So in essence as ghandi said, "I have nothing new to teach the world, truth and nonviolence is as old as the hills." Its like saying that truth has failed us so truth must be flawed. prostitution has worked since it is the oldest profession, therefore it must not be flawed.

[faye]

do you think that it is all part of a learning process?

like, people abusing and insulting each other or hating on each others religions. people choosing negativity over positivity, taking too many drugs, wars, violence, depleted uranium, etc. learning that these things aren't beneficial to the individual nor humanity, through the experience of making these mistakes.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

what's up with pashtuns and ****ty logic

1.) Prostitution isn't a "way of life" thus it does not even play as a legitimate analogy here on any stretch.

2.) Its one time success doesn't account for its eventual failure. If it was successful it would continue being successful, success is a continuous not a discreet process.

3.) Flawed and Failure are two different things. Communism is very nice on paper; but didn't succeed in practice

4.) Anything can be said to work if people follow it, But if it does not motivate people to follow it then it shows it doesn't suits people's welfare, people pursue whatever is better for their welfare. That's what "works" and is successful.

[Levanaye Zalmaye]

Islam can be interpreted on two different levels - the individual and the state level. Islam aims to reform the individual but it also maps out a political system whereby a 'utopia' can be created, under which the entire Ummah would be united.

On the state level, Islam failed right after the prophet's death. Abu Bakr had to crush many rebellions, false prophets as well as followers of Ali. Ali's followers got the upper hand later on when they killed Usman. Then Usman's kinsmen killed almost every member of Ali's family at Karbala. Within a hundred years, the Islamic world, instead of being under a Caliph or Imam, was fragmented into city-states, ruled by different Turkic warlords, who were often at war with each other. It wasn't much different from what the 'god-appointed' kings of Christendom were doing to each other.

At the individual level, however, it's debatable whether or not 'Islam has failed'. The reasons are obvious - many adhere to very strict moral principles while a good number of people in our societies are almost openly corrupt. In any case, morality doesn't come from religion alone. That's another discussion altogether.

[faye]

and then the wahhabi were created.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Islam can be interpreted on two different levels - the individual and the state level. Islam aims to reform the individual but it also maps out a political system whereby a 'utopia' can be created, under which the entire Ummah would be united.

On the state level, Islam failed right after the prophet's death. Abu Bakr had to crush many rebellions, false prophets as well as followers of Ali. Ali's followers got the upper hand later on when they killed Usman. Then Usman's kinsmen killed almost every member of Ali's family at Karbala. Within a hundred years, the Islamic world, instead of being under a Caliph or Imam, was fragmented into city-states, ruled by different Turkic warlords, who were often at war with each other. It wasn't much different from what the 'god-appointed' kings of Christendom were doing to each other.

At the individual level, however, it's debatable whether or not 'Islam has failed'. The reasons are obvious - many adhere to very strict moral principles while a good number of people in our societies are almost openly corrupt. In any case, morality doesn't come from religion alone. That's another discussion altogether.

I don't know if I'd use your scale as a valid measure of success or failure because if that's the case

then democracy and secularism has "failed" too, Many uprisings and revolts have taken place in democratic and secular countries. People are currently fermenting opposition.

I think a better measure of failure and success is using human needs factor.

Has Islam

a.) tackled problems like environmental/social health and welfare

No; the Taliban prevent polio vaccines at the risk of the health/welfare of children

b.) provided resources and services to the people it governs over,

No; most Islamically run societies have failed to do this on a large scale.

c.) empower the people in developing the capacity and know how to suffice themselves adequately; i.e. via education, development of skills, institutions which can speedily enact the peoples will and direction to action and response.

Maybe at one time; but certainly not now

[Afghanistan2010]

Islam can be interpreted on two different levels - the individual and the state level. Islam aims to reform the individual but it also maps out a political system whereby a 'utopia' can be created, under which the entire Ummah would be united.

On the state level, Islam failed right after the prophet's death. Abu Bakr had to crush many rebellions, false prophets as well as followers of Ali. Ali's followers got the upper hand later on when they killed Usman. Then Usman's kinsmen killed almost every member of Ali's family at Karbala. Within a hundred years, the Islamic world, instead of being under a Caliph or Imam, was fragmented into city-states, ruled by different Turkic warlords, who were often at war with each other. It wasn't much different from what the 'god-appointed' kings of Christendom were doing to each other.

At the individual level, however, it's debatable whether or not 'Islam has failed'. The reasons are obvious - many adhere to very strict moral principles while a good number of people in our societies are almost openly corrupt. In any case, morality doesn't come from religion alone. That's another discussion altogether.

What is this BS....have you any historical,Islamic proofs for that.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

What is this BS....have you any historical,Islamic proofs for that.

Tarikh Al Tabari

[Tjanaparh]

I think a better measure of failure and success is using human needs factor.
Has Islam
a.) tackled problems like environmental/social health and welfare
No; the Taliban prevent polio vaccines at the risk of the health/welfare of children
b.) provided resources and services to the people it governs over,
No; most Islamically run societies have failed to do this on a large scale.
c.) empower the people in developing the capacity and know how to suffice themselves adequately; i.e. via education, development of skills, institutions which can speedily enact the peoples will and direction to action and response.
Maybe at one time; but certainly not now

Dear RTR, excuse me but Your answer is strange.
1)Why do You directly use the Talaban as equivalent to Islam.
2)Why do see polio vaccines directly as health benefit - it may be for You a clear benefit - but medicine is not such a simple thing that the first positive effect s the only one to count. And I do not refer to Talaban, that perhaps even do not pose such a question.
3)Once the Islamic world was quiet at a good level in education and quiet strong, I think You yourself stated it here.
4)The human needs factor is a very difficult variable - You cannot rely on it - human needs may contradict and may be errate if considered alone as needs of material progress.
That is also why communism was never applied, because the people were not able to enter the communist way of thinking.

Changes need time, revolution of any kind is an act of violence and never resolves any situation in a positive way.

Mankind itself can invent 10000s good ideas of social and enviormental development, systems of education. And can pretend even the faith they have is the most pure, as long but as they only pretend , their systems won't work, their ideas won't be applied and they will remain far of any faith.

[Khostai]

What is this BS....have you any historical,Islamic proofs for that.

Proof what proof?, read hirtory and you will know that most of the Islamic countrys were colonised by Europeans, afterwards rulled by secular mindided dictators who did everything to distance themslef from Islam, failing lower than that as an Islamic state is not possibel....

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Dear RTR, excuse me but Your answer is strange.
1)Why do You directly use the Talaban as equivalent to Islam.
2)Why do see polio vaccines directly as health benefit - it may be for You a clear benefit - but medicine is not such a simple thing that the first positive effect s the only one to count. And I do not refer to Talaban, that perhaps even do not pose such a question.
3)Once the Islamic world was quiet at a good level in education and quiet strong, I think You yourself stated it here.
4)The human needs factor is a very difficult variable - You cannot rely on it - human needs may contradict and may be errate if considered alone as needs of material progress.
That is also why communism was never applied, because the people were not able to enter the communist way of thinking.

Changes need time, revolution of any kind is an act of violence and never resolves any situation in a positive way.

Mankind itself can invent 10000s good ideas of social and enviormental development, systems of education. And can pretend even the faith they have is the most pure, as long but as they only pretend , their systems won't work, their ideas won't be applied and they will remain far of any faith.

Because the individuals such as TraitortoAfghanistan2010 and Lynx idealize the Taliban as the representation of Islam.


even TraitortoAfghanistan2020 hates the Golden Age of islam because it was run by Mu'tazilah. Everything people like them consider Islam is considered against islam by these pepple.

When something is no longer useful it has failed; Your argument lacks Logical Comprehensiveness, in that you think that Past-Success means that it is successful, Long Term success is what is important. Like being in a race just because someone was in the lead before doesn't mean it will win. right now Muslims are DEAD LAST (well almost)

Human needs are pretty fundamental; water, shelter, access to liveable conditions, health improvement, disease control. That's why the Polio vaccine are important measures of human progress because they have eradicated Polio (in every part except Muslim world) because that benefits others.

your questions are irrational and absurd; It's like someone asking Why do we need to breathe, why is breathing so important? or why should we be healthy? Why is health so important, you argue against things fundamental for humans to thrive. The answer to your question is really answered by Evolution.

The bottom line is that people will follow what brings results; Communism failed because it did not produce results. Modern Knowledge has vaccines for Polio, Muslims can only "pray" Allah(swt) makes it go away. That's where success and failure are really demonstrated

[khushal]

what's up with pashtuns and ****ty logic

1.) Prostitution isn't a "way of life" thus it does not even play as a legitimate analogy here on any stretch.

2.) Its one time success doesn't account for its eventual failure. If it was successful it would continue being successful, success is a continuous not a discreet process.

3.) Flawed and Failure are two different things. Communism is very nice on paper; but didn't succeed in practice

4.) Anything can be said to work if people follow it, But if it does not motivate people to follow it then it shows it doesn't suits people's welfare, people pursue whatever is better for their welfare. That's what "works" and is successful.

your the one with ****ty logic.
We are following your logic here. your the one that says what is not followed is flawed. Prostitution has always existed in all societies, it has never dissapeared, therefore there is no flaw in it. Those prostitutes must be pursueing what is better for their own welfare right. Oh wait maybe the pimps that are using them are pursueing what is better for their own welfare.
That bold statement in your post is exactly right. Its called monopolization motivated by greed. People are flawed, they use and abuse to pursue whatever is better for their own welfare. They'll screw the society for their own interests. What do you think ghandi was talking about, the British Empire was using the whole Indian subcontinent for their own welfare. The Indians that were allied with the Brits was using their own society for their own welfare.
All those dictators that ruling the middle east, they pursue what is better for their own welfare. The people that allow them to be dictators, allow them to dictate to them, allow them to be used and abused by them are flawed, not truth itself.
Because if we follow your logic, since most of the world is ruled by dictators, most of the population follows dictators, therefore the dictator system must have no flaws because people follow what is in their own best interests.

[Tjanaparh]

Because the individuals such as TraitortoAfghanistan2010 and Lynx idealize the Taliban as the representation of Islam.
even TraitortoAfghanistan2020 hates the Golden Age of islam because it was run by Mu'tazilah. Everything people like them consider Islam is considered against islam by these pepple.
When something is no longer useful it has failed; Your argument lacks Logical Comprehensiveness, in that you think that Past-Success means that it is successful, Long Term success is what is important. Like being in a race just because someone was in the lead before doesn't mean it will win. right now Muslims are DEAD LAST (well almost)
Human needs are pretty fundamental; water, shelter, access to liveable conditions, health improvement, disease control. That's why the Polio vaccine are important measures of human progress because they have eradicated Polio (in every part except Muslim world) because that benefits others.
your questions are irrational and absurd; It's like someone asking Why do we need to breathe, why is breathing so important? or why should we be healthy? Why is health so important, you argue against things fundamental for humans to thrive. The answer to your question is really answered by Evolution.
The bottom line is that people will follow what brings results; Communism failed because it did not produce results. Modern Knowledge has vaccines for Polio, Muslims can only "pray" Allah(swt) makes it go away. That's where success and failure are really demonstrated

1) My questions are not absurd and are in no way comparable to "why should we breath". Illnesses are not possible to eradicate - you can eradicate one illness hile others will follow! Remember tjis, I am saying it to You even as a specialist, perhaps not the best specialist, but at least a person related to healthcare. You assume things that are quiet out of logic, and perhaps any people assume, that however doesn'T make richt theese asumed thoughts.
I try to make it short for not leaving the Islam theme.
You see the people as a kind of wholy ill people who need only to be treated with pharmaceuticals and not able to avoid illnesses.
While it is not like that. Simple the nowdays healthcare does not work to keep a person healthy and to educate and give him the knowledge of remaining healthy. Beacause that would be not profitable for the Economy(not only because of pharmaceuticals but even food....).
Vaccines give help against some diseases, but they create problems to the health on longer term, and these problems can be a big series of other illnesses, only because they are cronical and not infectious disseases You cannot say they don't exist. A make a point here for not leaving to far the theme.
2) Nobody can be continously successfull, what begins ends too. Further You cannot see an idea out of the people that follow it or not!
Communism did produce results, but these results quiet more in your nderstanding during soviet times than the capitalism does now, but that was not the problem.

The basic needs You mentioned cannot be fullfiled by an idea, it depends on the people, what is quiet more complicated.
And only to make people recognize that the water, shelter... are an important aim you have to educate people to realize it and not to follow their wishes that partially prive others from such facilities.