Jesus (peace be upon him) did not die for your sins !

[randolph85]

i am not too familiar with the history of european transitions to democracy. my observations are based on past and present outright separation of church and state in these countries. christian political and social power must of been extremely diminished to be agreeable to this kind of agreement. not to mention this being the work of their own people instead of some foreign influence.

[faye]

you don't like your democracy, randolph?
people are influenced by the near past even if they are not religious they may have been brought up in a religious home.
when democracies have been created in america, europe and australia, the main religion of these countries was christianity.

much of what occurs today, is not favourable to me, but i certainly have enjoyed my life as a woman being treated as an equal, with the capacity to travel the world and choose what i want to believe in.

[Afghanistan2010]

anyway, the societies most of the members on here live in, including you, 2010, were basically, created by christians.

I prefer living among practicing christians than any other religion or sects.

[faye]

where did you manage to find a whole bunch of practising christians?

[randolph85]

you don't like your democracy, randolph?
people are influenced by the near past even if they are not religious they may have been brought up in a religious home.
when democracies have been created in america, europe and australia, the main religion of these countries was christianity.

much of what occurs today, is not favourable to me, but i certainly have enjoyed my life as a woman being treated as an equal, with the capacity to travel the world and choose what i want to believe in.

democracy is just a word my dear faye.

for what i say in america i can be arrested for in europe. for what a westerner says about islam in the west, they can be arrested in a muslim democracy.

if christianity had any basis in the modern world, it is diminishing fast. i think you have been around long enough to see the change in generations.

[faye]

there are revivals in christianity as there are more people becoming muslim. civilisation, so called, is not a static entity. i can only hope that we eventually acknowledge the negatives and delete them. we are supposed to learn from our mistakes but it sometimes does not look as though humanity follows that wise instruction.

[Afghanistan2010]

where did you manage to find a whole bunch of practising christians?

In Italy everywhere,but as said,the true christians the last of them Salman Al Farsi (rad) met and they Sahaba when the emigrated away from Makkah to the Christian King in Abyssinia and some who then turned to Islam.

[Zirey]

Faye,
great avatar. Makes me think of George MacDonald's novel Lillith.

Regarding Bart Ehrman, apologist William Lane Craig has critiqued Ehrman's claims in detail. E.g., http://www.reasonablefaith.org/media...cepoint-church

[randolph85]

i don't consider a society christian when the believers allow such ridiculous indecency into their public domain. they have forfeited gods favor for man made laws which they have made themselves subservient to. the same is true for countries like turkey for example, but at least that country has made a concentrated effort to revert to their religious history. this is the complete opposite of western civilization today.

[faye]

well if you look at my statements randolph, i never said todays democracies are fully christian. i was talking of the basis and the capacity for democracies to be created.

what you don't like about todays democracies, some others could equally disappprove of what they don't like in muslim based societies, more than likely, equally disapproved of by your allah.

[randolph85]

that was what i was kind of getting at. the basis and capacity for western democracies to be created was the downfall of religious christian influence, rather than a strong religious endorsement. ironically, the arab spring has shown that democracy is a source of islamic legitimacy and strength in many countries.

but again, democracy is just a word and takes many forms.

[faye]

well, it isn't just a word. it allows for a lot of freedom of speech, religions, equality of men and women, action and beliefs.
imperfect, no less.
but if you find a democracy so unfavourable, why do you plan to stay in america, in the woods with a dog?

[randolph85]

but these allowances differ even among the so called leaders of democracy, from europe to america. in many countries in europe, you can be put in prison for denying a historical event, in america they can legally throw you in prison with no charge at all.

i stay in america because the dirt that i live on is the same as the dirt elsewhere.

[faye]

i asked that question of you randolph, as, due to your seeming distaste for those around you and the american system, i was suprised that you were not planning to return to afghanistan. i thought you might be one who would.

sure individual opinions and democracies differ. each person and country has a different history and heritage and their form of democracy will be made in their individual countries image.
agreed that there are many faults, but how would you like to be living through a slaughterhouse, each time the country needed to change government?

a lot of the hadiths that i have read appear to be similar in overall direction for people, as the christian values anyway.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

In Italy everywhere,but as said,the true christians the last of them Salman Al Farsi (rad) met and they Sahaba when the emigrated away from Makkah to the Christian King in Abyssinia and some who then turned to Islam.

Italians are Catholics; and Christians like Zirey consider them a false religion.