NATIONALISM ('Asabiyyah)

[Maiwand]

[Levanaye Zalmaye]

Maiwand Khan, I agree with you that all the Arab countries should unite under one flag despite the fact that Egypt, Hejaz, Nejd, Iraq, Syria, Judea, Yemen, Oman, etc have always been separate political entities. However, before the expansion of the first Caliphate, North Africans were Berbers who had very little to do with Arab culture. Many north Africans still stick to their regional and ancient identity and are not interested in any form of Arab unity. Even in Egypt, the lingua-franca had been Greek for a very long time and again, Egyptians have a different culture and history from Iraqis and modern Saudis. Many modern Arab-speaking areas were Arab-ized during the Khilafas. To say that "nationalism" divided them is wrong.

Furthermore, this unity-phase - this unity of different ethnic groups was once a dream of the European Christians too. It has been tried, tested and it has failed miserably. All the Germanic Medieval European kings from all the royal houses (whether in Spain or Poland) were supposed to be united under the leadership of the Patriarch of Rome. However, different nationalities had different claims and goals and all efforts of unity failed despite the presence of a central unifying figure - the pope. The kings of England claimed France as their own and they fought over that for centuries. The English tried taking over Scotland many times, despite all of them being staunch Catholics. Denmark began subjugating its Swedish and Norwegian neighbors. They fought dozens of wars over that only. National aspirations trumped religious unity. Eventually, they came up with the nation-state system in 1648. Every nation got its own state. That was the logical end of that. They still fight and bicker but at least they've realized that religious unity is impossible whereas ethnic unity is logical and preferable.

The Abbassids and Ummayyads could hardly control the Middle-East when human population was so low.... how can conflicting nations and states unify now? Why would Turkey unify with Saudi Arabia? What do Malaysia and Iran have in common? Why would we lump up the Bengalis with the Chechens? Why would the Arabs accept an Indian or Indonesian Caliph?

We should stop looking at the world emotionally and start looking at it realistically. Nationalism and national-aspirations are natural. It's called the natural law of the origin of states. Going against it is going against your human nature and it will end in chaos. The application of emotional Mullah ideas in the modern world will only have us end up in one way - besmirched in fratricidal blood.

[Dreamer]

Say for arguments sake there was an islamic state as envisioned by Maiwand wror... what pray would the state language be? Arabic? Most muslims cant speak it and no 1 would want it as their language takeing priority over their mother tongue... and btw arabic today is not quranic arabic so why shld we adopt it? that is arab imperialisim...

[Maiwand]

Say for arguments sake there was an islamic state as envisioned by Maiwand wror... what pray would the state language be? Arabic? Most muslims cant speak it and no 1 would want it as their language takeing priority over their mother tongue... and btw arabic today is not quranic arabic so why shld we adopt it? that is arab imperialisim...

Language is not very important, as long as people can read the Quran and understand it. We can even adopt the english language in our countries, if that makes life easy. Language is only a means of communications. Only pathetic nationalist people give too much value to language.

[Dreamer]

u think arabs will allow that???? LOOOOOOL NEVER!
they will impose arabic on us... they will treat us as 2nd class citizens... their belief is in Pan arabisim... they days of caliphate are over... it was a corrupt system and hence it failed

[akbarkhan]

Language is not very important, as long as people can read the Quran and understand it. We can even adopt the english language in our countries, if that makes life easy. Language is only a means of communications. Only pathetic nationalist people give too much value to language.

Well said Maiwand, by the way I love your name.

[Dreamer]

language isnt important????? yea You lot would gladly have us speaking arabic no thanks.. Im not a wannabe arab... arabs will never accept you no matter how hard u try 2 imitate them... look at the caliphate within 100 yrs it had degenerated into a tyranny... it ( the ummayads and abbasids) killed and persecuted the prophets family, they treated non arabs like slaves...

[akbarkhan]

language isnt important?????

Allow me to present you with a scenario.

There are two women, one speaks Pashto the other speaks Mandarin. The Mandarin speaker is a pious woman and the Pashto speaking one is a prostitute.

Which one is a good person?

[Dreamer]

how does language affect ones morals.... poor example... Im not saying pashtuns are superior 2 non pashtuns.. I am saying that we have a duty 2 preserve our language... let me present u with a scenario... a muslim man is a corrupt alcohol drinking fornicating man who abuses people etc and you have a non muslim man who minds his own business and respects his neighbours rights.... which is better?

[akbarkhan]

how does language affect ones morals.... poor example... Im not saying pashtuns are superior 2 non pashtuns.. I am saying that we have a duty 2 preserve our language... let me present u with a scenario... a muslim man is a corrupt alcohol drinking fornicating man who abuses people etc and you have a non muslim man who minds his own business and respects his neighbours rights.... which is better?

It is not about morals it was a question of importance! It doesn't matter what language you speak or what background you hail from, what counts is your deeds.

I would say the non-Muslim is a better person compared to Muslim guy because the Muslim guy has received the message 'knowledge' yet still he indulges in sin.

[Dreamer]

please explain how great the corrupt ummayads were and how great and marvellous the abbasids and their successors were... you are after all advocating a return to caliphate... a system which went belly up after only 100 yrs if that

[akbarkhan]

please explain how great the corrupt ummayads were and how great and marvellous the abbasids and their successors were... you are after all advocating a return to caliphate... a system which went belly up after only 100 yrs if that

There is no shadow of a doubt that some elements of the Ummayed dynasty were nepotist and hence corrupt. Corruption will always exist so will injustices and transgression. Save a handful of truly pious men in history, 'everything is corrupted once man touched it'.

Expecting perfection is a fairy tale, one might as well picture a couple of unicorns in such utopia. The world will never be in a perfect state, after all that is the whole point of this world.

"By time, indeed mankind is in loss. Except for those who have believed and done righteous deeds and advised each other to truth and advised each other to patience."

Mankind will remain in a constant state of turmoil, only the pious and the resilient will triumph as the sand of time escapes from the hourglass.

We must judge people by their overall virtue & achievements, not by immediate mistakes, for none is barren of blunders. Today we stand still on the cross roads of history, but even the critics of Islam can not help but respect our predecessor generations - admitting that they owe most of their industrial, political and social success to those generations.

We find ourselves humbled by the task ahead, reshaping the history of mankind is truly out of our scope yet we persevere, the shimmering ray of light has manfestied itself in the distant horizon. The morn will find us triumphant!

[Dreamer]

some of them???? loooooool MOST if not ALL of them were despots.... God curse them but wait your system is perfect with answers to everything.... are you contradicting yourself???
Thank goodness that the likes of the ummayads and abbasids are finsihed... they belong in history books an no place else

[akbarkhan]

God curse them but wait your system is perfect with answers to everything.... are you contradicting yourself???

The system is perfect, human beings who implement it aren't!

[Dreamer]

take a look at how the precsious caliphate treated the prophets family:
Imam Hassan- Murdered on the orders of Muawiya the first ummayad
Imam Hussain- Murdered due Yazeed and his lust for power... yazeed the heir of Muawiya
Imam zain al abaden- posioned on the orders of Caliph al walid
Imam Baqir- Posioned on the orders of Caliph Hisham malik
Imam Jaffer- Posioned on the orders of calip al mansor
Imam Musa- Put into prison and executed on the orders of Caliph Haroon rashid
Imam Reza- Killed on orders from Caliph mamun
Imam Taqi-Killed by his wife ( daughter of caliph mamun)
Imam Hadi-Killed by Caliph Mutaz
Imam Askari-placed under house arrest and executed by caliph Mutamid..



this is just what the caliphate did to the prophets household... Lord knows what cruelty they did on the average muslim... treating non arabs like dirt....
but hey this is the caliphate!!!!!!!! the same system you wish 2 take us back 2!