Ziarat or Shrines

[Levanaye Zalmaye]

In Karachi, if anyone has ever witnessed the shrine of Abdullah Shah Ghazi, he/she would've seen our reality - the dead rot in lofty palaces while the poor sleep outside on the sidewalks. No wonder we're such a backward people.

[Dreamer]

anybody who wants to waste their time asking a dead person to help them can do so but please dont claim its islam

[Feroza_Banu]

tawassul is permissible but it is not FARZ!... one doesn't have to practice this. and tawassul just like any other form of worship... i.e. praying namaz ... has many conditions that have to be met. if one doesn't know the right way of using tawasul then one shouldn't do it!... just like if you don't know how to perform namaz then first learn it and then perform it.

if one doesn't practice tawasul and doesn't believe in this way of praying being effective, doesn' tmean he is a kafir or he falls out of a madhab.

[شمله ور خراساني]

But wouldnt it be a good thing just to put a ban on all ziarats?

they did that in Saudi Arabia.

[Feroza_Banu]

^does that educate people? i think there should be better and more effectve ways of educating people about tawassul... a slap on face or force is not the right way.... at least NOT when it comes to religion.

people can still tawasul without going to ziarat... they can do this at home too... but if they are not educated about it they will do it wrongly in ziarat and at home.

[Feroza_Banu]

people think blowing one's self up in a public place is Jahad... and i know many people who support this kind of conduct too. does this mean that the basic fundamental of jahad is wrong? or is it that some people practice it wrong by blowing themselves up?

[شمله ور خراساني]

^does that educate people? i think there should be better and more effectve ways of educating people about tawassul... a slap on face or force is not the right way.... at least NOT when it comes to religion.

people can still tawasul without going to ziarat... they can do this at home too... but if they are not educated about it they will do it wrongly in ziarat and at home.

to you shirk seems like a minor technicality. But it is worst thing ever.

Imaam Ibn Abdul Wahhab's students complained to him on one occassion saying why he kept repeating the subject of tawheed in his lectures. So Imaam ibn Abdul Wahhaab said fine. He asked his students a question:

What is a graver sin? A man having sex with his mother, or a man sacrificing a chicken for other than allah?

And his students were shocked. They said: well obviously the man who had sex with his own mother.

Imaam ibn Abdul Wahhaab said: No. Al though sex with your own mother is a grave sin, sacrificing for other than Allah is worst sin of all since it is shirk.

Therefore he expressed the importance of understanding tawheed fully.

If you see people worshiping dead people, and you are the ruler of the land like the king of Afghanistan for instance. Then you are allowed to use force to destroy places where shirk is practiced.

Because preventing al munkar has 3 levels. The highest level is preventing by the hand. the second level is preventing munkar by the statements. And last and lowest level is hating munkar in your heart.

Preventing munkar by the hand means, if you have legitimate authority than you are allowed to use force.

So there is no harm in using force.

But if you don't have the power, then you have no other choice but to advice people not to commit shirk.

[Feroza_Banu]

to you shirk seems like a minor technicality. But it is worst thing ever.

Imaam Ibn Abdul Wahhab's students complained to him on one occassion saying why he kept repeating the subject of tawheed in his lectures. So Imaam ibn Abdul Wahhaab said fine. He asked his students a question:

What is a graver sin? A man having sex with his mother, or a man sacrificing a chicken for other than allah?

And his students were shocked. They said: well obviously the man who had sex with his own mother.

Imaam ibn Abdul Wahhaab said: No. Al though sex with your own mother is a grave sin, sacrificing for other than Allah is worst sin of all since it is shirk.

Therefore he expressed the importance of understanding tawheed fully.

If you see people worshiping dead people, and you are the ruler of the land like the king of Afghanistan for instance. Then you are allowed to use force to destroy places where shirk is practiced.

Because preventing al munkar has 3 levels. The highest level is preventing by the hand. the second level is preventing munkar by the statements. And last and lowest level is hating munkar in your heart.

Preventing munkar by the hand means, if you have legitimate authority than you are allowed to use force.

So there is no harm in using force.

But if you don't have the power, then you have no other choice but to advice people not to commit shirk.

definitely shirk is not a minor sin. i don't think u should assume that i don't know that...

the problem is that you don't know abut anyone's niat (intention) for visitng a shrine or a peer baba. you can draw conclusions of who is doing shirk by watching youtube videos of people kissing shrines... i think judging part is left to Allah swt. the problem with you while watching these videos are that you have a limited mind and your conclusions are based on what you see. a person might not have the intention of worshipping a grave or shrine when kissing it. but to you it does seem like it.

i do not support this action of kissing graves or people's hand or feet but i wouldn't call them kafir for sure... rather when i see someone doing that i would want to make sure i educate him about what his intentions should be while visting a shrine or a grave.

the problem is education... i am sure u can't find any evidence in any madhab that supports shirk or kufr... again the problem lies in our own practice.

please do read my posts before replying... and i mean entire post...

there is no point of discussing something if the person infront doesn't even read the replies.

[abubaker]

I agree so much. Why isnt the Pakistan govt banning this? Pakistan is the capital for this.

about 10 years a go they did destroy a couple of small shrines here and there but the didn't touch the bigger and most famous ones

[abubaker]

definitely shirk is not a minor sin. i don't think u should assume that i don't know that...

the problem is that you don't know abut anyone's niat (intention) for visitng a shrine or a peer baba. you can draw conclusions of who is doing shirk by watching youtube videos of people kissing shrines... i think judging part is left to Allah swt. the problem with you while watching these videos are that you have a limited mind and your conclusions are based on what you see. a person might not have the intention of worshipping a grave or shrine when kissing it. but to you it does seem like it.

i do not support this action of kissing graves or people's hand or feet but i wouldn't call them kafir for sure... rather when i see someone doing that i would want to make sure i educate him about what his intentions should be while visting a shrine or a grave.

the problem is education... i am sure u can't find any evidence in any madhab that supports shirk or kufr... again the problem lies in our own practice.

please do read my posts before replying... and i mean entire post...

there is no point of discussing something if the person infront doesn't even read the replies.

peroza babo pir baba ya kaka sahib tha kala thlali ye, ka kalda di hakhwa makha swa bya di kalgo na pokhtana waklda wai daltha sa dipara raghali astai

most people will either say iam here because i want the kaka sahib to give me a son or for him to remove my piryan and so on

[Feroza_Banu]

^i agree with you that people do that. i have seen and heard it with my own eyes and ears.

you suggest madhab to take away the permissibility of tawasul to fix this problem? wouldn't that be against what has been taught to us by our PRophet Mohammad PBUH...

or you suggest government officials to order the destructions of shrines? ... would that help educate people? i don't think so. Education is the key. all of this happens due to lack of education and faith.

is going to peer baba or shrine the ONLY thing that muslim practice wrong ? i think there are many many other aspects of Islam that muslims practice wrongly... and again that is because they don't know enough.

do you think a kochiiii that lives in a tent knows what is requirements of Ghusul and how it should be performed? and he/she makes sure to perform this ghusul to clean his/her body whenever necessary before praying. have u talked to kochis? half of them are not even aware of word ghusul. their lack of knowledge in Islam and islamic practice is mind boggling yet they call themselves muslims n we can't call them kafir...

again its all lack of edcuation.

[Mujib]

peroza babo pir baba ya kaka sahib tha kala thlali ye, ka kalda di hakhwa makha swa bya di kalgo na pokhtana waklda wai daltha sa dipara raghali astai

most people will either say iam here because i want the kaka sahib to give me a son or for him to remove my piryan and so on

Have you ever been to the doctor's office? If you ever do (may Allah give you health), ask the people there what they have come for.

Everyone will say I am here because I want the doctor to treat and cure me.

Now think about it, brother; does the logic of "asking anyone but Allah is shirk" not apply here? And don't we know, without asking or thinking about it, what people mean when they say, "I want the doctor to treat and cure me"? We know they don't mean that the doctor or the medicine is the ultimate cause of cure. We know that they know that Allah Most High is the cause. Everything is by His Will and Power. But they have come to the doctor because the doctor and the medicine are means that Allah Most High has created. They don't consider the doctor or the medicine as gods, nor do they worship them. Rather, they make use of them as means.

Every Muslim believes in La ilaha illallah and knows what it means. They know and believe Allah Most High is Lord and Creator of everything. So let us keep this in mind and let us not think anything but good of our fellow Muslims.

[abubaker]

^i agree with you that people do that. i have seen and heard it with my own eyes and ears.

you suggest madhab to take away the permissibility of tawasul to fix this problem? wouldn't that be against what has been taught to us by our PRophet Mohammad PBUH...

or you suggest government officials to order the destructions of shrines? ... would that help educate people? i don't think so. Education is the key. all of this happens due to lack of education and faith.

is going to peer baba or shrine the ONLY thing that muslim practice wrong ? i think there are many many other aspects of Islam that muslims practice wrongly... and again that is because they don't know enough.

do you think a kochiiii that lives in a tent knows what is requirements of Ghusul and how it should be performed? and he/she makes sure to perform this ghusul to clean his/her body whenever necessary before praying. have u talked to kochis? half of them are not even aware of word ghusul. their lack of knowledge in Islam and islamic practice is mind boggling yet they call themselves muslims n we can't call them kafir...

again its all lack of edcuation.

i agree this isn't the only wrong thing that Muslims are doing but it is the biggest, tell me is there a biggest sin one can perform then shirk? so if the sin is this great shouldn't the measures to stop it be as sevier''spelling''.

di kuchyano pa bara ki yaw mathal rapauad so, kho wayalo bandi be adabi kegi

why do you find it so unacceptable to destroy shrines even though there is clear evidence for it in the sunah of our prophet sww

any way iam not going to contiue this topic any longer, wasalam

[inqilab]

Can you show me one instance where his opinion doesn't agree with the Qura'an?

i can give you many. Even in the elementary understanding of iman. but this is not about abu hanifah.

This is about those people who slander him. And say they are following his school. When he did not even form a school.

Abu hanifah himself left his own views if they were wrong. But ths cultists after him make him into an ilah.