Is mortgage haram?

[Badlun]

lol what a load of BS !!!

You can do usury and be a muslim, you can drink alcohol and be a muslim.

Sinning does not equal apostasy.

What makes you a non-muslim is cooperating with kuffars in times of war for example and other things I mentionned in a thread before.

You should stick to zoophilia, homosexuality and other atheistic subjects. You have no credibility in Islamic theology.

HAHAHA Islam is not prayers, HAHAHA

you wish that Idolater !

Islam encompasses everything from economics, politics, education, warfare, human interactions, family, funerals, even the way you hold your glass is Islamic or non-Islamic

I do believe in Islamic moral injunctions in Quran and usury is forbidden with moral underpinnings. Usury is different from interest as usury has moral aspect while interest is just reasonable profit on investment or use of money/capital. Usury being moral is bad while interest within lawful bounds is economic concept and has nothing to do with religion. usury is doscouraged in many religions.

Usury is the practice of charging excessive, unreasonably high, and often illegal interest rates on loans.The term is largely derived from Christian religious principles; Riba is the corresponding Arabic term and ribbit is the Hebrew word.

The word "Riba" means excess, increase or addition, which according to Islamic terminology, implies any excess compensation without due consideration (consideration does not include time value of money). The definition of riba in classical Islamic jurisprudence was "surplus value without counterpart", or "to ensure equivalency in real value", and that "numerical value was immaterial."

Besides this moral aspect of usury Islam as a religion does not provide any other injunction on economy. Zakat is a kind of worship and not a tax.

Islam has no exact political or cultural or legal or social or economic or scientific or philosophical system and thus its just a religion and not a complete way of life. Quran most of the time talks of beliefs, morality and worship and touches other aspects of life but just for moral consideration.

We have not seen any complete Islamic system any where in the world in the past 1500 years. We have not seen because it does not exist.

If you are making mortgage haram then only mortgage is not haram but every other thing is also haram. Then all your income based on the modern economic and banking system is also haram. Dont get any profit or income or wages from any system based on modern commercial banking system other wise you will be doing Haram which will lead you to infidelity and apostasy.

[ozymandias]

I know let me count , up to 20 atheists and they had all this of opinion.
They don't wanted to face the reality that they have to die and they will be awaken and they had to meet their lord.

So you fall under category 1, then -- which I pretty much predicted, because I know you have had conversations with me in the past, and you know I am an atheist.

Personally, I have never met an atheist that was described wanting to be cool/rebellious, too stupid/busy to be religious, OR your new third category, afraid to face reality. In fact, I would say that it's the religious that are afraid to face a reality without a god, and not the atheists afraid of reality with a god, since, by definition, atheists don't believe in a god. That's just not even rational. How can you be afraid of something you don't believe in?

Care to add a fourth category?

[Nora]

i know so many afghans who bought houses on mortagage and they are mullah type people :S he was saying its not haram coz we are giving interest not taking it.

[Afghanistan2010]

So you fall under category 1, then -- which I pretty much predicted, because I know you have had conversations with me in the past, and you know I am an atheist.

Personally, I have never met an atheist that was described wanting to be cool/rebellious, too stupid/busy to be religious, OR your new third category, afraid to face reality. In fact, I would say that it's the religious that are afraid to face a reality without a god, and not the atheists afraid of reality with a god, since, by definition, atheists don't believe in a god. That's just not even rational. How can you be afraid of something you don't believe in?

Care to add a fourth category?

This is all typ one and two there isn't type three,they fall all under this two catagories.

They know there is God and the laws,but they are kind of revolutionaries...they don't want to be controlled,they want to cross the red line.

Disproving Evolution in Less Than 3 Minutes - YouTube[/URL]

[ozymandias]

This is all typ one and two there isn't type three,they fall all under this two catagories.

They know there is God and the laws,but they are kind of revolutionaries...they don't want to be controlled,they want to cross the red line.

Disproving Evolution in Less Than 3 Minutes - YouTube[/URL]

Then by the very definition of the word, they are not atheist. If they 'know there is a god', they are not atheist. Period. These are theists that you are inappropriately calling atheists, and using to make a generalization about a group they are not even part of.

You have clearly listed three categories of people you mistakenly label as atheists, and I still have not seen a description of many of the atheists I have met in my life.

[Afghanistan2010]

Then by the very definition of the word, they are not atheist. If they 'know there is a god', they are not atheist. Period. These are theists that you are inappropriately calling atheists, and using to make a generalization about a group they are not even part of.

You have clearly listed three categories of people you mistakenly label as atheists, and I still have not seen a description of many of the atheists I have met in my life.

These are people who you or they consider themselves atheists,but aren't true atheists,even atheism is a belief/religion but not theology (because theos is God in greek lang) and they reject the facts.

[ozymandias]

These are people who you or they consider themselves atheists,but aren't true atheists,even atheism is a belief/religion but not theology (because theos is God in greek lang) and they reject the facts.

Again, you make me wonder what kind of people you have been exposed to. What sort of person believes in a god, but calls themselves an atheist? I have also never met an atheist that 'rejects the facts'. In fact, that seems to be one of the two major traits of atheists (number one being the lack of belief in a god), that they are pretty decent skeptics and work fairly hard to find the facts. In all reality, most of the people I know that are atheist are atheists exactly because of that -- they demand proof and evidence in something, and thus reject religion because it has no such things.

[کیش]

Science is theoretical, god is everywhere.

Take for example, Oxymandius

You have been shot or stabbed and you are bleeding everywhere. How would you react? I know your response, your going to say that you will remain calm and hope for the best. The real reaction you will make is you'll start praying. Praying to Allah, Jesus, Krishna anybody to help you out.

The Pharoah was blind deaf and dumb to Moses sign of god. It was only after the waters of the red were drowning him, till he realized that the god of Abraham was thee god.

I guess if you like, go on living ignorance of god. When your close to death, then you will realizenthe truth. I'm afraid it will be too late.

[ScimitarXEdge]

what do you mean by "theoretical" Kaish......and explain to us the scientific definition of theoretical.

[Iqra]

I do believe in Islamic moral injunctions in Quran and usury is forbidden with moral underpinnings. Usury is different from interest as usury has moral aspect while interest is just reasonable profit on investment or use of money/capital. Usury being moral is bad while interest within lawful bounds is economic concept and has nothing to do with religion. usury is doscouraged in many religions.

Usury is the practice of charging excessive, unreasonably high, and often illegal interest rates on loans.The term is largely derived from Christian religious principles; Riba is the corresponding Arabic term and ribbit is the Hebrew word.

The word "Riba" means excess, increase or addition, which according to Islamic terminology, implies any excess compensation without due consideration (consideration does not include time value of money). The definition of riba in classical Islamic jurisprudence was "surplus value without counterpart", or "to ensure equivalency in real value", and that "numerical value was immaterial."

Besides this moral aspect of usury Islam as a religion does not provide any other injunction on economy. Zakat is a kind of worship and not a tax.

Islam has no exact political or cultural or legal or social or economic or scientific or philosophical system and thus its just a religion and not a complete way of life. Quran most of the time talks of beliefs, morality and worship and touches other aspects of life but just for moral consideration.

We have not seen any complete Islamic system any where in the world in the past 1500 years. We have not seen because it does not exist.

If you are making mortgage haram then only mortgage is not haram but every other thing is also haram. Then all your income based on the modern economic and banking system is also haram. Dont get any profit or income or wages from any system based on modern commercial banking system other wise you will be doing Haram which will lead you to infidelity and apostasy.

Okay you should quote what you obtain from wiki so it is more clear what comes from you and what comes from others so there's no confusion...

Also I wonder if you put actual research into what you've pasted/stated here...

Anyway here's another quote from wiki

"The criticism of usury in Islam was well established during the lifetime of the Islamic prophet Muhammad and reinforced by several of verses in the Qur'an dating back to around 600 AD. The original word used for usury in this text was Riba, which literally means “excess or addition”. This was accepted to refer directly to interest on loans so that, according to Islamic economists Choudhury and Malik (1992), by the time of Caliph Umar, the prohibition of interest was a well-established working principle integrated into the Islamic economic system. This interpretation of usury has not been universally accepted or applied in the Islamic world. A school of Islamic thought which emerged in the 19th Century, led by Sir Sayyed, argues for an interpretative differentiation between usury, or consumptional lending, and interest, or lending for commercial investment (Ahmed, 1958). Nevertheless, Choudhury and Malik provide evidence for “a gradual evolution of the institutions of interest-free financial enterprises across the world” (1992: 104). They cite, for instance, the current existence of financial institutions in Iran, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, the Dar-al-Mal-al-Islami in Geneva and Islamic trust companies in North America."

[Afghanistan2010]

Again, you make me wonder what kind of people you have been exposed to. What sort of person believes in a god, but calls themselves an atheist? I have also never met an atheist that 'rejects the facts'. In fact, that seems to be one of the two major traits of atheists (number one being the lack of belief in a god), that they are pretty decent skeptics and work fairly hard to find the facts. In all reality, most of the people I know that are atheist are atheists exactly because of that -- they demand proof and evidence in something, and thus reject religion because it has no such things.

Proof me that there is no God , if you speak the truth...
Bring me a single phrase of you or of any human that can match a single vers of the quran.

[کیش]

what do you mean by "theoretical" Kaish......and explain to us the scientific definition of theoretical.

Science is based on theories, is it not? How do we know if what humans have performed, is what it really is. What happens if alot of science is a big deceive?

Before I move on any further I noticed how you didn't care to respond to Oxymandius saying god s theoritical and fake, but asked me a question. You never debate with an Atheist, for a man who loves to debate I find it quite odd.

[ScimitarXEdge]

I don't think Osho has any idea what they're talking about namely when he says "usury is different than interest"

While in some cases he is right because Usury can also mean the money that was lent PLUS its interest, which means that usury is inextricably tied to interest. The original base definition of Usury is in fact interest.

This is by the very definition of Usury.

Dictionary and Thesaurus - Merriam-Webster Online

Definition of USURY

1
archaic : interest
2
: the lending of money with an interest charge for its use;

ALso he's incorrect of the Textual usage of Ribaa, Lexically Ribaa, comes from the word "Rab'a" , which means to "add on" not "excess

and Osho also is not being intellectually honest on what Islamic Jurisprudence has said regarding interest.

Hafiz Ibn Hajr writes in his commentary of Sahih Bukhari (Fathul Bari):

"Imam Malik reports on the authority of Zaid Ibn Aslam that in the period of ignorance (pre-Islamic times) interest was changed according to the following scheme. One person had a right in the property of another person. It may have been a general right because of the amount lent or the price of something purchased or in any other form. A time was set when the claim would be settled. When the appointed time arrived the creditor would ask the debtor if he wanted to settle the claim or pay interest with an extension to the time. If the claim was settled then there was no increase in the payment. Otherwise the debtor would increase the amount payable and the creditor would extend the period further.

(Vol. IV P.264)

This is quotation of Fath Al Bari, which is a very important book in regards to Classical Islamic Jurisprudence. So either Osho did not know the actual meaning of Ribaa, or he was being deliberately dishonest.

Osho's logic in his argument is flawed as well;

Osho says "Quran most of the time talks of beliefs, morality and worship and touches other aspects of life but just for moral consideration".


Which means based on the context of his discourse, that some of the Qur'an advocates laws and legal procedures. This would nullify his argument.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Science is based on theories, is it not? How do we know if what humans have performed, is what it really is. What happens if alot of science is a big deceive?

Before I move on any further I noticed how you didn't care to respond to Oxymandius saying god s theoritical and fake, but asked me a question. You never debate with an Atheist, for a man who loves to debate I find it quite odd.

What does theory mean in science though? Is it used the same way you're using it, or does it have specific meaning that they apply to it.


Please explain to us what is the Scientific usage of the word Theory.

I don't care because he's not claiming to represent Islam; you're claiming to represent Islam...and in the process making Islam appear intellectually weak and unable to handle the challenges put forth by the kufar as most of your arguments are just emotional and not logical.

You're using a lot of the generic tactics that Christian Fanatics use when debating Atheists, Muslims are supposed to be superior to that. I expect more from someone who claims to be Muslim.

[کیش]

Have we ever met to know how intellectual I am? We all know the real communication is done verbally, and not in texts.

Maybe that is where you prosper?