PA's Shoutbox

[PakistaniAtheist]

yes, Allah (sw) knows everything, but you clearly don't. Just because he knows something beforehand doesn't mean we don't have free will. Its just that since he is not bound by time and space, he can know the future.



Allah (sw) created us to worship him because one of his attributes is "The creator". so what kind of creator would he be if he doesn't create?



In the muslim version of the story Adam (as) is forgiven for making tha mistake and muslms don't believe in original sin. We are all born sinless and comit sins because we have free will.



Bowing down to Adam (as) was a command from (sw), so thats why all followed it except Iblis (shaitan) because of his pride. Bowing down to any human is forbidden and thats a command but that is the instruction or command for now. Whatever is the command of Allah (sw), people have to follow it, wether to bow down or not. If we don't follow the will of Allah (sw), we harm ourselves because we will be going against nature.



Stoning to death is the last resort and that punishment is reserved for adultery. Do you know how much adultery harms the society? When fabric of society is destroyed especially family unit which is the basic and most important component of society, the society breaks down and children grow up without one of their parents. It has a huge physycological effect on children. Anyway to prove adultery, there have to be 4 witnesses who watched the actual sexual intercourse happen, thats a very unlikely scenario and in most cases there are never 4 witnesses available so a lesser punishment is given. The main purpose of such a law is to deter people from commiting a crime which is harmful for society.
What is humane and not humane is not decided by humans, human being can justify any crime they want when it suits them. According to Hitler, it was humane to kill jews because they were harming other people. Muslims don't make up their morals as they go along permitting something or forbidding something according to their own whims and desires. A muslim's morality comes from the source, the creator himself, who really knows the essence of things and what really harms or benifits us.
Regarding the marriage of Aisha (ra), its well known that she was engaged to another man before her father broke the engagement and married her off to Muhammad (saw). If it was seen normal for her to marry other men at that age then why not Muhammad (saw)? And those who accuse Muhmmad (saw) of peodophilia fail miserably because most of his wives were old women including his first wife khadija (ra) who was 15 years older than him. If you look at any definition of peadophilia then you will see that this point is proven wrong by the very definition. If you don't want to marry a 6 year old then you don't have to. I personally wouldn't marry a 6 year old or allow anyone else to marry a 6 year old simply because I don't regard 6 year olds as mature or of sound age to make a decision regarding marriage. In Islam a man and woman is free to marry who ever they wan't as long as they are muslim (including jews and christians for men).

Yes Allah can know everything that is fine the point is if Allah knows everything whats the point of doing it or making us going through it. What is the need for all powerful Allah for any of this. We are here so there is a purpose. A purpose is driven by a need and if Allah has a need then Allah is not suffciant. Allah is the creator the question is why he created us. The answer is he created us to worship Allah. Dont you think it is quite selfish of Allah to create things so they can worship Allah and punish reward those he likes. Is this all in vanity. The punishment is also for eternity that is forever ever and ever. Adam is forgiven but not returned to paradise. That is a punishment. He is forgiven but still punshied we as children of adam are being punished for something adam did how does that make sense. We have free will but we are given weaknesses nafs. We have free will but Allah decides what comes our way. We have free will but if we refuse to believe in Allah the punishment is death. We have free will but only Allah decides whom he turns toward him. How does that work. Angels were asked to bow down not jinns. Ibliss is said to be a jinn. Angels bowed down beacause they have no free will but jinns do. Ibliss had free will and he knew that he should bow to no one but Allah. Why would Allah play such games not to mention knowing very well what will happen. Stoning is a last resort and also to prove this crime the conditions are also set so it can never be proven therefore its not that big of a deal why stone someone for it. This is a major crime but to prove it is so hard that you can get away with it mostly. In reality in Muslim countries no one really need to produce these witnesses just a single claim without any evidence can cause death upon someone totally innocent of any crime. The taliban in afghanistan killed many women without any 4 witnesses only on suspecisioun that they were prostitutes or seen coming out of nato basess. As for physcoligcal effect you know the phycological effect on a 9 year old girl being raped by a 50 year old man even if he smells nice and smiles. That is a poor excuse to kill some one by stoning them to death. Human morality comes from humans as you can see most western nations are very kind toward others regardless of race or religion there is seperation between government and religion. you are not discriminated against becaues of your gender age or race. This doesnt mean it doesnt happen it happens but the law protects you if it does and you can fight to get your rights. in religious states something like saudi arabia iran or taliban afghanistan forget about humane rights for none muslims they didnt even have humane rights for muslims belonging to different sects. so you see that secular humanistic nations are more humane than your religious states. I never claimed Mohammad to be a pedophile he doesnt fit the profile. Mohammad did not have an abnormal attraction to children this is fact established by his other marriages so you are right. What Mohammad did do according to today standards is considered child molestation or even statutory rape. You are right we can not apply these labels of modern soceity to Mohammad time. That is where the problem arises. If this act of Mohammad was in accordance with the time he was in then Mohammad actions which is his sunnah are limited and not for all times as Muslims believe his sunnah is for all time. That opens a pandaor box of whole other questions about many muslim practices. If this action is not limited to just his time then Islam and Muslims condones child molestation and child rape. If this action according to you is wrong then Mohammad participated in an act that was wrong instead of abolishing it by example. The same with female circumsicions which he didnt abolish.

Narrated Umm Atiyyah al-Ansariyyah: A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said to her: Do not cut severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband. 5251 Sunan Abu Dawud




//////I am glad you are questioning these things as Islam encourages us to question, observe and ponder upon the signs of Allah (sw). Always remeber that you have a chance to repent before you die and your past mistakes have no bearing on your future if you sincerely repent. Sins of ignorance are easily forgiven. Wether you become a muslim or not is upto Allah (sw) since he is the only one who gives faith to whomever he wills. Keep an open mind and you will be fine.//////



Thank for your and darkwitch participation you have been civil unlike other rabid religious creatures. One thing we were told as kids not to question because such things are put in our head by shaitaan. So not really it is not encouraged in muslims societies to question it can mean death at times.

[PakistaniAtheist]

"uh, uh, uh" <---- thats the sound of you drowning in the Amu Darya... here's why:

You failed again on Islam 101 and everyone here is laughing at you because even the secularists have this basic knowledge of Islamic theology. Iblis is in the company of the Angels. As an example: Its no different than when in the US, if the national anthem is being sung, its deeply disrespectful, irrespective of nationality if one sits down and pouts.

Just as non Americans in America are expected to abide by American law, by the same token, Iblis was in the company of the Angels and to abide by the order.

In the Quranic text, God makes it clear that Angels ONLY obey his will. This is clarified in the verses where the Jews take Gabriel as an enemy. Angels do not disobey God's command, they cannot do so.

The verse is stating to the reader, the obvious:

So then the verse would have read as a better comparison for your parsiwaan peanut brain:

All of the men were asked to fight against Napolean on the front lines. They all obeyed; not so John. (as a prelude to John being punished).

Then clarification verse:

All of the men were asked to fight against Napolean on the front lines. They all obeyed; not so John, for he was a mercenary.

The other men are soldiers... they cannot but obey the order... John is a mercenary in their company... he has likely been paid his sum and should fight Napolean... but he refuses.

Sorry Kabulzada. You lose again.

Hi okay you win I lose. Also I am not parsiwan or from kabul why you keep saying that.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Hi okay you win I lose. Also I am not parsiwan or from kabul why you keep saying that.

Suuuuure.

[din]

Atheism and Islam - Zakir Naik - YouTube

[din]

Atheism and Islam - Zakir Naik

Atheism and Islam - Zakir Naik - YouTube

[Afghanistan2010]

This has to be some of the worst logic I have ever seen. Why would an atheist end their life early like that? If anything, life is *more* precious to an atheist, than a theist, because that is all they get. There is no extra life after you die.

if you have no sense in life,what worth is life ?
why do you live further ?

I have thought that it would be nice. It would also be nice to have a trillion dollars. Wishful thinking does not make something true.
Then your God screwed up. He created an intelligent, thinking man, and failed to provide evidence of his own existence.

What if *you* are wrong, though? Best case, you lived your life under a bunch of rules and restrictions, wasted a chunk of your time, and that's all. Worst case scenario? You have the wrong god, and you are in the same boat as me -- or worse.

But Allah has shown you his signs,who are you that the one who created you should come down for you and show himself to you , i swear by Allah you were the one who wont believe in him even then.

you misunderstand the whole topic,God doesn't need you !you are in need of him.

My answer? I was the best possible me I could be. I took the gifts I was given, by a god, by nature, or by luck, and I did the most I could with them. I worked to improve myself every day, I worked to educate myself, and further the causes of humanity. I was the most moral person I could be, I worked to limit suffering, to fight oppression, and to educated those that needed it. I did these things not because I was told to do them, but because they were the right thing to do. I would hold my head up high, and not be ashamed of who I am, or what I did, because I never took the easy way out, never accepted another persons easy answer. I looked life in the eyes, and did not flinch.

beauty lies in the eye of the beholder

the one that is for you good is for the otherone wrong.

how can you interpret what is wrong and what is good...? and it is more difficult for you if you do not believe in Allah so you do not believe in Iblis (Devil) then there must be only peace and stability.

when he God tells you , have you done what i have ordered you ? or have you done what you ordered yourself ?

[ozymandias]

if you have no sense in life,what worth is life ?
why do you live further ?

Why do you keep asking this over and over, even after I already answered it?

But Allah has shown you his signs,

That's where you are wrong. I have not seen anything in my life that requires a supernatural explanation.

who are you that the one who created you should come down for you and show himself to you ,

I am the one that is expected to believe in something illogical. Any moral creature would show me evidence prior to punishing me for not believing.

i swear by Allah you were the one who wont believe in him even then.

You might be right -- I may be pushed to keep looking for the natural explanations of what I saw.

you misunderstand the whole topic,God doesn't need you !you are in need of him.

Not at all. I don't need a god. I am doing just fine without one -- better in fact. I did not turn away from the hard questions, or the difficult problems in life, I faced them head on, and are a better person because of it.

beauty lies in the eye of the beholder

the one that is for you good is for the otherone wrong.

how can you interpret what is wrong and what is good...?

Using a logical moral system. That's how.

and it is more difficult for you if you do not believe in Allah so you do not believe in Iblis (Devil) then there must be only peace and stability.

This makes no sense. I have never even heard an atheist make this claim.

when he God tells you , have you done what i have ordered you ? or have you done what you ordered yourself ?

I have done what is according to my nature, and can hold my head up high, as I have done the best with the gifts I was given as I could. I would be ashamed to be any less than I am. Your god has given me no orders. I have no more evidence of these orders than I do of your god. I did what was right *because* it was right -- not because I was ordered to.

Who is the better man, the man that does not lie, steal, cheat, or murder because those things are *wrong* or the man that does not lie, steal, cheat, or murder, because the law tells him not to?

[Afghanistan2010]

i will return soon,inshaAllah to continue this discussion.

[Soldat_Amir]

This will never end at all.

Lets be logical here, what if Islam was wrong and Christianity was right?

Muslims would rise up and oppose it as false.

Now you know how the godless feel.

Nobody needs to follow a particular relgion to have meaning to their life. The reason why people are so adament on following a faith, is because its become custom due to culture.

Mankind has lived without religion since the time the Jews decided to invent Judaism where it all started off.

Mankind has always adapted to survival, from the pre historic times to present.

Religion does provide one a purpose in life, but fails to acknowledge purposes that doesnt fit into their catagory of "How we should live".

There is nothing wrong with having faith in a god however saying that your god will solve all your problems and make you moral is deluded.

Like they say, guns dont kill people, people kill people, same with Religion, God does not kill people but people kill for God.

In my view, Religion should play no role in government and policy making. Religion should be limited to ones own belief, and not be regarded as the solution to all problems.

Judaism, Christianity and Islam all claim to be right, and even if there was a God out there, what makes you think he supports those Religions, when mankind himself, has spread his words?

Also, in regards to Afghanistan2010's comment about not having a meaningful life if you do not beleive in God. Well, can you explain to me, all the suicides that happen due to martial and economical problems, I am sure those who took their own lives beleived in a God too, but that did not stop them from ending a very meaningful life, meaningless life can be intrepretated in many ways, You do not need a GOD to have a meaningful life, preaching his word to register new followers does not mean your meaningful life applies to all.

A meaningful life can be anything, from finding a cure for cancer to climbing mount everest. You do not need God to provide you a meaningful life.

[badmash_khel]

Yes Allah can know everything that is fine the point is if Allah knows everything whats the point of doing it or making us going through it. What is the need for all powerful Allah for any of this. We are here so there is a purpose. A purpose is driven by a need and if Allah has a need then Allah is not suffciant. Allah is the creator the question is why he created us. The answer is he created us to worship Allah. Dont you think it is quite selfish of Allah to create things so they can worship Allah and punish reward those he likes. Is this all in vanity. The punishment is also for eternity that is forever ever and ever. Adam is forgiven but not returned to paradise. That is a punishment. He is forgiven but still punshied we as children of adam are being punished for something adam did how does that make sense. We have free will but we are given weaknesses nafs. We have free will but Allah decides what comes our way. We have free will but if we refuse to believe in Allah the punishment is death. We have free will but only Allah decides whom he turns toward him. How does that work. Angels were asked to bow down not jinns. Ibliss is said to be a jinn. Angels bowed down beacause they have no free will but jinns do. Ibliss had free will and he knew that he should bow to no one but Allah. Why would Allah play such games not to mention knowing very well what will happen. Stoning is a last resort and also to prove this crime the conditions are also set so it can never be proven therefore its not that big of a deal why stone someone for it. This is a major crime but to prove it is so hard that you can get away with it mostly. In reality in Muslim countries no one really need to produce these witnesses just a single claim without any evidence can cause death upon someone totally innocent of any crime. The taliban in afghanistan killed many women without any 4 witnesses only on suspecisioun that they were prostitutes or seen coming out of nato basess. As for physcoligcal effect you know the phycological effect on a 9 year old girl being raped by a 50 year old man even if he smells nice and smiles. That is a poor excuse to kill some one by stoning them to death. Human morality comes from humans as you can see most western nations are very kind toward others regardless of race or religion there is seperation between government and religion. you are not discriminated against becaues of your gender age or race. This doesnt mean it doesnt happen it happens but the law protects you if it does and you can fight to get your rights. in religious states something like saudi arabia iran or taliban afghanistan forget about humane rights for none muslims they didnt even have humane rights for muslims belonging to different sects. so you see that secular humanistic nations are more humane than your religious states. I never claimed Mohammad to be a pedophile he doesnt fit the profile. Mohammad did not have an abnormal attraction to children this is fact established by his other marriages so you are right. What Mohammad did do according to today standards is considered child molestation or even statutory rape. You are right we can not apply these labels of modern soceity to Mohammad time. That is where the problem arises. If this act of Mohammad was in accordance with the time he was in then Mohammad actions which is his sunnah are limited and not for all times as Muslims believe his sunnah is for all time. That opens a pandaor box of whole other questions about many muslim practices. If this action is not limited to just his time then Islam and Muslims condones child molestation and child rape. If this action according to you is wrong then Mohammad participated in an act that was wrong instead of abolishing it by example. The same with female circumsicions which he didnt abolish.

Narrated Umm Atiyyah al-Ansariyyah: A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said to her: Do not cut severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband. 5251 Sunan Abu Dawud




//////I am glad you are questioning these things as Islam encourages us to question, observe and ponder upon the signs of Allah (sw). Always remeber that you have a chance to repent before you die and your past mistakes have no bearing on your future if you sincerely repent. Sins of ignorance are easily forgiven. Wether you become a muslim or not is upto Allah (sw) since he is the only one who gives faith to whomever he wills. Keep an open mind and you will be fine.//////



Thank for your and darkwitch participation you have been civil unlike other rabid religious creatures. One thing we were told as kids not to question because such things are put in our head by shaitaan. So not really it is not encouraged in muslims societies to question it can mean death at times.

You are asking questions such as "why is he making us go through this? and "why does he need to test us?" and so on. The thing is, you don't have a choice either way. You are created and you have to accept it. You have to accept the will of Allah (sw), thats why those who submit their will to Allah (sw) are called muslims.
The funny thing is that people never ask "Why we have to breath to live?" and "why we have to eat to live?. People just accept that fact that they have to eat to live and breath to live and don't have any other choice. But they are very reluctant to accept that they have a creator and to obey his rules. Atheists love to follow the laws of nature but as soon as a creator is mentioned, they have some form of allergic reaction to it. As if nature is seperate from creator.
The whole creation is the manifestation of the attributes of Allah (sw). for example one of his attributes is he is "Al-Ghaffaar", the forgiver. He forgives us when we don't submit to his will sometimes. Another is "the judge", he judges us according to our intentions and deeds and decides what we deserve thus showing his mercy, justice and other attributes. Everthing in existence both physical and non physical is related to his attributes.
Just like you have to accept the fact that you have to eat to survive, you have to also accept the fact that you are created. The sooner you accept this fact and figure a way how to do the right thing the better it will be for you. otherwise you will be just going against nature and common sense. Because only you creator knows whats best for you and whats not. just like the parents don't give children sweets sometimes or junk food even though it tastes good, the creator also tells you to abstain from somethings so it benifits you. there is great wisdom behind his commands and most religious figures wether buddha, jesus or moses. they all recognized this and thus were enlightened.

[ozymandias]

You are asking questions such as "why is he making us go through this? and "why does he need to test us?" and so on. The thing is, you don't have a choice either way. You are created and you have to accept it. You have to accept the will of Allah (sw), thats why those who submit their will to Allah (sw) are called muslims.
The funny thing is that people never ask "Why we have to breath to live?" and "why we have to eat to live?

Actually, many people have asked these things int he past. The reason that no one asks them anymore is because even school children are taught the answers science found to these questions, and no longer live in the dark.

. People just accept that fact that they have to eat to live and breath to live and don't have any other choice.

No they don't. These questions have clear answers.

But they are very reluctant to accept that they have a creator and to obey his rules.

Because there is no clear proof for a creator. Eating and breathing are able to be examined using the scientific method, gods cannot be.

Atheists love to follow the laws of nature but as soon as a creator is mentioned, they have some form of allergic reaction to it.

No allergic reaction needed, just those aforementioned laws.

As if nature is seperate from creator.

Clearly it is. A creator, by definition is supernatural -- or outside the realm of nature.

The whole creation is the manifestation of the attributes of Allah (sw). for example one of his attributes is he is "Al-Ghaffaar", the forgiver. He forgives us when we don't submit to his will sometimes. Another is "the judge", he judges us according to our intentions and deeds and decides what we deserve thus showing his mercy, justice and other attributes. Everthing in existence both physical and non physical is related to his attributes.
Just like you have to accept the fact that you have to eat to survive, you have to also accept the fact that you are created.

False. I fail to eat, I die. I fail to believe in a god -- nothing. No measurable reaction.

The sooner you accept this fact and figure a way how to do the right thing the better it will be for you. otherwise you will be just going against nature and common sense.

Yeah, no. Common sense and nature both frown upon the idea of the supernatural, or faith without evidence.

Because only you creator knows whats best for you and whats not. just like the parents don't give children sweets sometimes or junk food even though it tastes good, the creator also tells you to abstain from somethings so it benifits you. there is great wisdom behind his commands and most religious figures wether buddha, jesus or moses. they all recognized this and thus were enlightened.

[badmash_khel]

Actually, many people have asked these things int he past. The reason that no one asks them anymore is because even school children are taught the answers science found to these questions, and no longer live in the dark.

Again Ozy, your bringing science into religioius discussion, science by its defenition is limited to the physical realm and is built on experiment, observations etc. Since God by definition is outside the scope of science I don't know how science can provide answer to such questions. Science is only concered with the meachanics and processes of how the world and nature works. It has nothing to do with morality or to judge right from wrong. Wether doing certain actions are good or bad for us or wether our actions have consequences.

No they don't. These questions have clear answers.

thats because the consequences of those actions are immediately revealed.

Because there is no clear proof for a creator. Eating and breathing are able to be examined using the scientific method, gods cannot be.

exactly, i never claimed god can be proved by logic or science. its a matter of faith.

Clearly it is. A creator, by definition is supernatural -- or outside the realm of nature.

since nothing exists except god then nature can't exist on its own. it a manifestation of god's attributes, its temporary and not eternal. the only reality is god.

False. I fail to eat, I die. I fail to believe in a god -- nothing. No measurable reaction.

just because there has been no reaction yet doesn't mean our actions will never have consequences. believing in God is a matter of free will, its upto you to believe or not. maybe you not believing in god and not acting according to his commands has harmed you in some ways but you fail to see it.

Yeah, no. Common sense and nature both frown upon the idea of the supernatural, or faith without evidence.

well there is plenty of evidence or signs to suggest there is a creator but if its not enough for you then its upto you. we all have the free will to choose.

[ozymandias]

Again Ozy, your bringing science into religioius discussion, science by its defenition is limited to the physical realm and is built on experiment, observations etc. Since God by definition is outside the scope of science I don't know how science can provide answer to such questions.

I'm not sure why you don't think science is qualified to explain the mechanics of a metabolism.

Science is only concered with the meachanics and processes of how the world and nature works. It has nothing to do with morality or to judge right from wrong.

Eating and breathing are not questions of morality.

Wether doing certain actions are good or bad for us or wether our actions have consequences.


thats because the consequences of those actions are immediately revealed.

That's not the only reason.

exactly, i never claimed god can be proved by logic or science. its a matter of faith.

And I have no problem with that statement.

since nothing exists except god then nature can't exist on its own.

Starting with a false premise is not going to result in a reliable result.

it a manifestation of god's attributes, its temporary and not eternal. the only reality is god.

See? there is your faulty result. You pre-supose the requirements of a god, and used circular logic to prove the existence of a god.

[/quote]

just because there has been no reaction yet doesn't mean our actions will never have consequences.

[/quote]

The reason I 'have to accept the fact that you have to eat to survive' is based on evidence. There is no such evidence forcing me to accept the existence or non-existence of a god.

believing in God is a matter of free will,

No it's not. It is a matter of whether or not you are convinced of the evidence. You have free will to pretend to believe in something, but inside, you are either convinced, or not. It's not an effort of choice.

its upto you to believe or not. maybe you not believing in god and not acting according to his commands has harmed you in some ways but you fail to see it.

Indeed. I have failed to see it.

well there is plenty of evidence or signs to suggest there is a creator but if its not enough for you then its upto you. we all have the free will to choose.

Where is this evidence? I have never seen, nor heard realistic reports of any such evidence -- and belief is not a matter of choice.

[Alchemist]

and belief is not a matter of choice.

You may choose to believe that sir.

[ozymandias]

You may choose to believe that sir.

I disagree. I have actually seen papers, and been to several lectures that have provided sufficient evidence that belief is not a choice for me to believe anything else. I could no more choose to believe that belief is a choice, than I could choose to disbelieve gravity, basic chemistry, or electronic theory.