Why Evolutiontheory is just a theory and not an Evidence

[ozymandias]

lol @ "new species" of bacteria...

you guys are a bunch of dweebs.


That statement of your is wrong on so many levels its not even funny.

Says the man that claims E.Coli has not changed in "1 billion years".

You guys have lost all your marbles. You have twisted the debate far away from biology and into some kind of a fictitious narrative where you three stooges can believe what evolution is.

Nope, this is still biology and evolution. Sorry if you don't know anything about either.

LOL again @ "new species". Please...show me the name of the "new species"

I gave you a whole list.

.. what did it change from into what? What was it called and then what did it become? If scimitar shows this proof I swear I will just leave the forum.

Quick, Scimitar, copy/paste my list of observed speciation! I know he is lying, but it's worth the chance!

I am calling your bluff out ... you fools!

Sure you are. Since this has already been done, you should leave...

[ozymandias]

ozy read this carefully: Bacteria ALWAYS has had resistance to anti biotics!

Read this carefully: Prove it.

The onus is on you to show proof that one time it didn't have THEN became "Modified" to have it!

Not at all. The proof is on you to disprove the widely recognized theory of evolution. You are the one claiming it is false.

Since you cannot PROVE this, you fail to show that it is an example of EVOLUTION.

Not even close. You are the one claiming it is not evolution, so prove it.

SIMPLE!


can you simpletons deal with that?

The question is, can you?

[Alchemist]

Read this carefully: Prove it.

Prove what? There is no such bacteria "Species" that wasn't resistant to antibiotics then became "modified" because it came in contact to antibiotics!

That never happened!

You only ASSUME it!!!!

Not at all. The proof is on you to disprove the widely recognized theory of evolution. You are the one claiming it is false.

Guess what buddy!

Mendal disproved Darwin.


You just didn't hear about it.

I know more about biology than you do. Which is why I am ready to talk about the details...but all you do is play games..."no...you prove it... no ... I posted a list from talk origin..that is my proof... if talk origin says it then its proof for me".... bug off!!

Not even close. You are the one claiming it is not evolution, so prove it.

Your proof so far was anti biotic resistance. By now its clear that anti biotics has changed bacteria AS A SPECIES!!!!!!!!!!! its still the SAME bacteria they are fighting with! Your drug targets for blondes, so brunettes are on the rise..something like that.. it doesn't mean that the blondes "changed" into brunettes! You are so dumb that I have to break it down to this level! LOL

The question is, can you?

Of coarse I can son!

I can disprove it easily. And I have been. You are just too layman to understand how I did it. The proof is beyound your comprehension.

Now if you did know biology then you would know how Mendilian genetics disproved darwinian evolution theory!

IF you were into "Science" and "Logic" ...but you are an idiot. You are a layman. You would want me to teach you that! Which is why you are the one who has his fingers in his ears and eyes!

[Alchemist]

ScimitarXEdge... you clown!

I am calling your bluff! Name the new species of bacteria! Show proof to back up your claim! You lying scheming deceitful heretical self aggrandizing buffoon!

[ScimitarXEdge]

changing goal posts again?

bacterial speciation observed

scroll to results and discussion

http://www.pnas.org/content/96/13/7348.full.pdf

[ScimitarXEdge]

S
I am calling your bluff! Name the new species of bacteria! Show proof to back up your claim! You lying scheming deceitful heretical self aggrandizing buffoon!

what a counter response; you scoffed and ridiculed something , therefore you proved it wrong.

Fallacy: Appeal to Ridicule

[ozymandias]

Prove what? There is no such bacteria "Species" that wasn't resistant to antibiotics then became "modified" because it came in contact to antibiotics!

Prove it.

That never happened!

Prove it.

You only ASSUME it!!!!






Guess what buddy!

Mendal disproved Darwin.

Prove it. The entire body of modern biology disagrees with you. Prove them wrong. Mendel did not have the whole picture and did not understand what we know about DNA and operated under several false assumptions -- much like you.

You just didn't hear about it.

I know more about biology than you do.

Prove it. That's a very odd claim for you to make, considering how many times I have disproved specific claims made by you, and how the entire body of modern science disagrees with your opinions about evolution.

Which is why I am ready to talk about the details...but all you do is play games..."no...you prove it... no ... I posted a list from talk origin..that is my proof... if talk origin says it then its proof for me".... bug off!!

Sorry, you claimed no one had observed speciation, and I disproved you. I never said that I believed it because it was on talk origin, that was just a convenient place to grab the scientific names from one source.

Your proof so far was anti biotic resistance.

Yep. My proof -- and the proof of the entire medical community. This is one of the many proofs.

By now its clear that anti biotics has changed bacteria AS A SPECIES!!!!!!!!!!!

Exactly.

its still the SAME bacteria they are fighting with!

Nope. Yet another thing for you to claim. Still waiting on the billion year old DNA of E.Coli, by the way.

Your drug targets for blondes, so brunettes are on the rise..something like that.. it doesn't mean that the blondes "changed" into brunettes! You are so dumb that I have to break it down to this level! LOL

More gibberish. I don't even know what you are claiming -- other than the fact that you don't even understand what evolution is. Evolution is a multi generational change, not one thing dying it's hair.

Of coarse I can son!

Then why don't you?

I can disprove it easily. And I have been.

Repeating yourself and calling names is not proof of anything. You need to cite evidence.

You are just too layman to understand how I did it. The proof is beyound your comprehension.

Well, considering my comprehension lines up with all the leading minds of modern science, and you are alone on the fringes, I think you have it backwards. You are now claiming to be smarter than every scientist. Have fun proving that one, and getting a Nobel or two while you do it.

Now if you did know biology then you would know how Mendilian genetics disproved darwinian evolution theory!

Except for the whole 'you being wrong' bit. Already addressed this, but feel free to grasp at this straw.

IF you were into "Science" and "Logic" ...but you are an idiot. You are a layman. You would want me to teach you that! Which is why you are the one who has his fingers in his ears and eyes!

*sigh*

Seriously, can you stop with the personal attacks, and start backing up your claims? It's hard to take you seriously when all you do is lie, name call, and troll.

[ozymandias]

E. coli long-term evolution experiment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'll just leave this here.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Antibiotic-resistant bacteria in Indian public water supply


more on new species of bacteria due to anti-biotic resistance



NDM-1 Superbug Mutation Shows Up in New Delhi Drinking Water - - TIME Healthland

Scientists have discovered a dangerous pathogen lurking in the drinking water in Delhi. It's not a superbug per se, but a supergene — a genetic mutation that can be acquired by a variety of bacteria to make them impervious to powerful antibiotics of last resort.The gene mutation, New Delhi metallo-beta-lactamase 1 (or NDM-1), was identified in 11 distinct bacterial species, including those that cause cholera and dysentery, researchers from the University of Cardiff reported Thursday in the journal The Lancet Infectious Diseases. "This is an urgent matter of public health," said the study's principle investigator, Dr. Timothy Walsh, who was the first to identify the NDM-1 mutation in 2008. (More on Time.com: Q&A With a Superbug Expert: How Dangerous Is CRKP?)
In September and October 2010, Walsh's research team collected 50 samples from public drinking water taps in New Delhi and 171 samples from "seepage," standing water that had pooled near public areas, both of which are used by residents for drinking, washing and/or other household functions. The scientists found bacterial strains with the NDM-1 mutation in two of the drinking water samples and in 51 of the seepage samples. For comparison, they collected 70 samples from Cardiff's water supply and found no evidence of bacteria with NDM-1 mutations.
While the bacteria that cause cholera (Vibrio cholerae), dysentery and diarrhea (Shigella) and other diseases may be commonly found in water samples in New Delhi, the researchers were dismayed to discover bacteria with the NDM-1 gene mutation — which means that these infections may potentially be untreatable with drugs.
Previously, the mutation has been confined to hospital settings. It has been identified in the hospital-associated bug Klebsiella, which causes pneumonia; Citrobacter, which causes urinary tract infections and sepsis; and the intestinal bacteria E. coli. (More on Time.com: Can We Protect Ourselves from the 'Superbug' MRSA?)

Last summer, reports of patients with NDM-1 infections began surfacing in Japan, the U.K., the U.S., Australia and other South Asian countries — many but not all of the patients had received medical treatment in India, prompting researchers to wonder whether the mutation was circulating in the environment. The current findings suggest that it is and that it is possibly being transmitted through the fecal-oral route. "Our data would suggest that possibly about 10% of the people in New Delhi carry NDM-1 in normal flora" in their guts, Walsh told Nature News.

The new study coincided with the World Health Organization's (WHO) World Health Day dedicated to antibiotic resistance. "The world is on the brink of losing these miracle cures," said WHO Director-General Dr. Margaret Chan in a statement. "In the absence of urgent corrective and protective actions, the world is heading towards a post-antibiotic era, in which many common infections will no longer have a cure and, once again, kill unabated."

The lack of development of new antibiotics is emerging as a major problem for public health and infectious disease experts. Just two weeks ago, Los Angeles County reported infections of carbapenem-resistant Klebsiella pneumoniae (CRKP), which had previously not reached the region. Like CRKP, bacteria with the NDM-1 mutation are immune to the last-resort antibiotics called carbapenems, which are used to treat drug-resistant infections. NDM-1 allows bacteria to generate an enzyme that can consume any drug in its path. (More on Time.com: Why You Need to Worry About NDM-1: Not a 'Superbug,' But Still a Threat)

And if there were an ideal environment for NDM-1 to spread, India would be it. As Scientific American reported:
The researchers also found that the NDM-1 genes were much more prone to swap (by as much as 1 million times) between bacterial species at 30 degrees Celsius (86 degrees Fahrenheit) than at 25 C or 37 C (which is body temperature). This temperature happens to be within the daily reach for much of the year in New Delhi — including monsoon season, "when floods and drain overflows are most likely, which potentially disseminates resistant bacteria," the authors explained. And the fact that the gene transfer happens more easily at ambient temperatures suggests that the bacteria have found environmental mixing "more important than in the gut."
India has all of the ingredients to further the spread of these resistance genes, Patrice Nordmann, of La Kremlin-Bicetre in France, explained at the 2010 American Society for Microbiology meeting in Boston. The overuse of antibiotics, dense population and poor sanitation "may fuel these resistance bugs," he said, which can then "spread worldwide just by plane and by transfer of population." It's been estimated that in the Indian subcontinent, where some 1.3 billion people live, about 650 million people do not have access to flushable toilets. And in New Delhi, the municipal sewage system only serves about 60 percent of residents.

The Indian Health Ministry dismissed Walsh's results. "The environmental presence of NDM-1 gene carrying bacteria is not a significant finding since there is no clinical or epidemiological linkage of this finding in the study area," V.M. Katoch, director of the Indian Council of Medical Research, said to the press. "Targeting a specific geographical region is totally unscientific as such bacteria is present all over the world."


Read more: NDM-1 Superbug Mutation Shows Up in New Delhi Drinking Water - - TIME Healthland

[ScimitarXEdge]

Alchemist's counter responses have been merely denying evidence and making unsupported rhetorical reactions.

[sanman]

lol @ "new species" of bacteria...

When Scimitar says "new", he means one that did not exist previously.
But obviously we all understand it has existed for a very long time.

ozy read this carefully: Bacteria ALWAYS has had resistance to anti biotics!

What do you mean "ALWAYS"?
You mean even before this Earth was created? "ALWAYS"??

So were those bacteria floating around in space, before the Earth existed?

No, the answer is that those bacteria emerged from other older bacteria, and became a new strain of their own, having their particular properties.

Bacteria gradually evolved. I once did an experiment in highschool, where we used simply chemistry to create coacervates, which were primitive little "bubbles" whose walls were similar to bacterial walls. This is part of how bacteria evolved from nothing but simple chemical building blocks.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Sanman he'll always harp on semantics and play the equivocation fallacy. He did this earlier when I was making satire of his statement that the different species are really races. I remarked " yeah race that can no longer produce viable offspring.i.e. are undergoing genetic drift"

[Alchemist]

E. coli long-term evolution experiment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


I'll just leave this here.

Some bacteria have had the ability to metabolise citrate. It isn't a new function. However, note that after 20 years of experimentation, no new species did or could have evolved despite the stressor induced, for the ability to metablize citrate came with a "fitness cost". And for a trait to be considered "adaptable", according to evolutionary theory, it must increase fitness! Meaning that in the same culture of glusose + citrate, the citrate metabolizer should out compete the glucose metabolizer but that was not the case.
If this experiment were as successful as it hoped to be, it would have been heralded as indisputable proof of evolution...but it has been mediocre to say the least!

changing goal posts again?

bacterial speciation observed

scroll to results and discussion

http://www.pnas.org/content/96/13/7348.full.pdf

Apparently the bacteria is soooooo new, it still doesn't even have a name. Maybe we should call it Scimiteria X. Edgia...since you discovered it!

LOL

Dummy! this is based on a hypothetical mathematics but not real or tangible proof of a real species!
You are so desperate that you just jump at the closest thing. Read carefully, not selectively.

Antibiotic-resistant bacteria in Indian public water supply


more on new species of bacteria due to anti-biotic resistance



NDM-1 Superbug Mutation Shows Up in New Delhi Drinking Water - - TIME Healthland

Scientists have discovered a dangerous pathogen lurking in the drinking water in Delhi. It's not a superbug per se, but a supergene — a genetic mutation that can be acquired by a variety of bacteria to make them impervious to powerful antibiotics of last resort.The gene mutation, New Delhi metallo-beta-lactamase 1 (or NDM-1), was identified in 11 distinct bacterial species, including those that cause cholera and dysentery, researchers from the University of Cardiff reported Thursday in the journal The Lancet Infectious Diseases. "This is an urgent matter of public health," said the study's principle investigator, Dr. Timothy Walsh, who was the first to identify the NDM-1 mutation in 2008. (More on Time.com: Q&A With a Superbug Expert: How Dangerous Is CRKP?)
In September and October 2010, Walsh's research team collected 50 samples from public drinking water taps in New Delhi and 171 samples from "seepage," standing water that had pooled near public areas, both of which are used by residents for drinking, washing and/or other household functions. The scientists found bacterial strains with the NDM-1 mutation in two of the drinking water samples and in 51 of the seepage samples. For comparison, they collected 70 samples from Cardiff's water supply and found no evidence of bacteria with NDM-1 mutations.
While the bacteria that cause cholera (Vibrio cholerae), dysentery and diarrhea (Shigella) and other diseases may be commonly found in water samples in New Delhi, the researchers were dismayed to discover bacteria with the NDM-1 gene mutation — which means that these infections may potentially be untreatable with drugs.
Previously, the mutation has been confined to hospital settings. It has been identified in the hospital-associated bug Klebsiella, which causes pneumonia; Citrobacter, which causes urinary tract infections and sepsis; and the intestinal bacteria E. coli. (More on Time.com: Can We Protect Ourselves from the 'Superbug' MRSA?)

Last summer, reports of patients with NDM-1 infections began surfacing in Japan, the U.K., the U.S., Australia and other South Asian countries — many but not all of the patients had received medical treatment in India, prompting researchers to wonder whether the mutation was circulating in the environment. The current findings suggest that it is and that it is possibly being transmitted through the fecal-oral route. "Our data would suggest that possibly about 10% of the people in New Delhi carry NDM-1 in normal flora" in their guts, Walsh told Nature News.

The new study coincided with the World Health Organization's (WHO) World Health Day dedicated to antibiotic resistance. "The world is on the brink of losing these miracle cures," said WHO Director-General Dr. Margaret Chan in a statement. "In the absence of urgent corrective and protective actions, the world is heading towards a post-antibiotic era, in which many common infections will no longer have a cure and, once again, kill unabated."

The lack of development of new antibiotics is emerging as a major problem for public health and infectious disease experts. Just two weeks ago, Los Angeles County reported infections of carbapenem-resistant Klebsiella pneumoniae (CRKP), which had previously not reached the region. Like CRKP, bacteria with the NDM-1 mutation are immune to the last-resort antibiotics called carbapenems, which are used to treat drug-resistant infections. NDM-1 allows bacteria to generate an enzyme that can consume any drug in its path. (More on Time.com: Why You Need to Worry About NDM-1: Not a 'Superbug,' But Still a Threat)

And if there were an ideal environment for NDM-1 to spread, India would be it. As Scientific American reported:
The researchers also found that the NDM-1 genes were much more prone to swap (by as much as 1 million times) between bacterial species at 30 degrees Celsius (86 degrees Fahrenheit) than at 25 C or 37 C (which is body temperature). This temperature happens to be within the daily reach for much of the year in New Delhi — including monsoon season, "when floods and drain overflows are most likely, which potentially disseminates resistant bacteria," the authors explained. And the fact that the gene transfer happens more easily at ambient temperatures suggests that the bacteria have found environmental mixing "more important than in the gut."
India has all of the ingredients to further the spread of these resistance genes, Patrice Nordmann, of La Kremlin-Bicetre in France, explained at the 2010 American Society for Microbiology meeting in Boston. The overuse of antibiotics, dense population and poor sanitation "may fuel these resistance bugs," he said, which can then "spread worldwide just by plane and by transfer of population." It's been estimated that in the Indian subcontinent, where some 1.3 billion people live, about 650 million people do not have access to flushable toilets. And in New Delhi, the municipal sewage system only serves about 60 percent of residents.

The Indian Health Ministry dismissed Walsh's results. "The environmental presence of NDM-1 gene carrying bacteria is not a significant finding since there is no clinical or epidemiological linkage of this finding in the study area," V.M. Katoch, director of the Indian Council of Medical Research, said to the press. "Targeting a specific geographical region is totally unscientific as such bacteria is present all over the world."


Read more: NDM-1 Superbug Mutation Shows Up in New Delhi Drinking Water - - TIME Healthland

Note that no where in the actual paper do they dub it as a "new species" of bacteria! Because it is not!

This is a gene that is found in 11 different species of bacteria. Am I changing goal posts? or is my fault you don't even understand the evidence you are presenting ...due to your own ignorance.

NMD1 is a subgroup of genes from metallo-beta-lactamase (MBL), and is similar to VIM. You have to understand that the core beta lactam ring for penicillins, cephalosporins, monobactams, and carbapenems are the same! There are over 300 beta lactamese enzymes that are known off. Don't fall for the media hype son... Learn to accept the facts like ozzy... This is a natural phenomenal because the essence of things have *Not* changed! Hence ...NO...evolution! So stop with the Delusions!

Alchemist's counter responses have been merely denying evidence and making unsupported rhetorical reactions.

"denying the evidence" ... what evidence? You are so stupid, that you called a newly discovered gene a new species! That is a classic layman mistake!

Sanman he'll always harp on semantics and play the equivocation fallacy. He did this earlier when I was making satire of his statement that the different species are really races. I remarked " yeah race that can no longer produce viable offspring.i.e. are undergoing genetic drift"

Yes, genes and species...that's just semantics.

You are so bull headed and ignorant that you still refuse to accept the data that even ozy admits to - that neanderthals and homo sapiens had sex and had viable offspring. You chose to selectively read passages out of context to say that they didn't have "viable offspring" when even the title of the paper clearly states - "humans and neanderthals interbred".

You have a psychological issue buddy.

Gain some real knowledge. Then come debate with me. You know you are not on my level of understanding of the biology we are discussing here.

[sanman]

You're randomly throwing around jargon to make yourself sound intellectual.

Tell me, why is it that bacteria are able to develop resistance to traditional anti-biotics that have been repeatedly used against them? They were not resistant before and those anti-biotics were considered a useful treatment back then. But now they have developed resistance over time, so that the same anti-biotic is no longer adequately effective against them.

This is proof of evolution.

[Alchemist]

By the way lameway Zelmay,

As long as they can mate, they are of the same species.