Why Evolutiontheory is just a theory and not an Evidence

[ScimitarXEdge]

Not if you realize that Allah(swt) stands outside of the concept of time/space by definition, then things like evolution wouldn't really be a contradiction because what seems to happen in phases of billions of years, are instantaneous for Allah(swt).

[sanman]

Alchemist, you will feel offended by what I say, but Adam and Eve is a story handed down across the generations.

As you know, evolution says that humans gradually evolved from lower animals. So Man evolved from the apes, which are the nearest lower relatives.

What is the problem with believing this? When I see how some people behave, I have no problem in believing in similarities between humans and apes.

Naturally, as creatures evolve over time, those with sufficiently different and better traits will become their own distinct species, while those that are in between and lacking a sufficient amount of those favorable traits will fade out from existence.

[ozymandias]

When you have such shallow understanding of what evolution is, you can easily fool your self into believing every evidence brought up against is actually proof for it!

If your only proof of evolution is anti-biotic resistance, then it doesn't fulfil the hypothesis for natural selection.

Good thing that is far from the only proof. That is the only evidence you have presented to disprove it -- and it simply stemmed from your misunderstanding of what evolution is, and what that evidence was showing.

Bacteria did not "mutate" after it got exposed to anti-biotics!

No, it was mutated prior to that. That's why some of the bacteria survived. It already had a trait that made it less susceptable to the antibiotics. The antibiotics were a selective agent, not a mutagentic agent.

The "mutations" conferring anti-biotic resistance existed before the discovery or use of antibiotics! The specific chemical required for resistance was inherent in the bacteria.

No proof either way. All we know is that it was present in that sample prior to the introduction of an antibiotic to that sample. Without knowing where it came from, it is insanely stupid to infer that this makes any implication about the existence pre-antiboitic age. For all you know, that sample was collected off the floor of a modern hospital the day they filmed that clip.

What I was trying to get across to you was that this type of mutation comes at a "fitness" cost. And according to the theory evolution, the trait in question ought to help the organism as a whole!

Only in the environment that it is most-fit for. That is the key point you cannot seem to grasp.

Another example of a mutation that appears helpful but only in specific situation is - having sickle cell anaemia in a malaria ridden region.

This is the exact type of problem I had with scimitar dull edge when I was trying to "Debate" with him on the subject of evolution. You both have a very weak background in biology and do not understand the complexities of organisms to have an appreciation for the scope of what it is we are actually debating.

You can keep making that claim, but I keep finding the flaws in your biology education, and showing your repeated mistakes. No matter how many times you claim you know more than me, the evidence proves you wrong.

You probably don't even know that unlike eukaryotic cells, prokaryotic cells are very bad at replicating their DNA. So within hours of a day the same bacteria will have had every single nucleotide in it's DNA changed! Yet E.coli bacteria has been the same species over a billion years!

With no selective pressures, there is nothing that causes these changes to be more-optimal or to change to suit a new environment.

Also, could you please cite a source for this? I would love to know where you found billion year old DNA to compare E.coli with. Did you invent a time machine?

This is NOT an example of vertical MACROevolution! But an example of horizontal microevolution = adaptation.

No one said it was macroevolution. The fact that a change took place is not enough to conclusively state it one way or another. You are the one that jumped to assumptions.

Yet, somehow I know you will manage to spin this around as something that proves evolution...

Well, it is testable, reproducible results that match the predictions of evolution, and provide no contrary evidence. Since it fits the theory, it sure does not disprove it.

clearly you two are delusional. Scimitar dull edge doesn't even have the shame and honor to man up to his mistake but throws a hissy fit as usual and goes straight into denial. Bravo!

It's better than throwing a hissy fit and tossing out the personal attacks like you do. Please grow up and stop the name calling. It makes it very hard to think of you anything other than a troll.

[ozymandias]

I think what Alcumlust fails to recognize is gaps doesn't mean that there are deficiencies exist about Evolution, but rather we're learning more about how those evolutionary processes actual work.

Please don't return the name calling. It takes you down to his level, and leaves you playing in the mud with him and the pigs.

[ozymandias]

alchemist is clearly winner of this debate.

How can having every claim refuted, and every piece of evidence he presented support the case *against* him, result in him winning?

[ozymandias]

Scimitar dull edge is a shameless Agnostic "Theist". He denies Khalq. Therefore he denies the attribute of Allah as Al Khaliq. That makes him a mushrik.
None of his views are supported by any traditional mu'tazali scholar. He is just fooling himself into thinking that he is one when really he has never met one in his life!


And Levanay is just as delusional as dull edge because his counter to my argument doesn't even remotely touch on the issues I have raised. I didn't make any "irreducible complexes" argument so why is he mention Micheal Behe when I havent? This clown keeps trying to throw me in a bandwagon that is deemed outcast so that he feels that he is "in the know".

The truth is that in all their postings on this thread, not scimitar or levanay have presented one shred of scientific proof! They have not made any scientific debate! These fools don't even know the first thing about biology but just keep making "haughty theatrical posts" full of slander and baseless accusation.

My challenge still stands. Present proof of a beneficial mutation or just ...STFU

Why should anyone else provide evidence? You provide plenty to support our point. Furthermore, why introduce more evidence, when you refuse to even look at the evidence already presented? Let's stay on topic and finish with this before we add more for you to ignore.

[ozymandias]

LOL


This is the most absurd and ridiculous statement of the century!

When you deny the existence of Adam and Eve (peace be upon them) and you deny the miracles performed by the Anbiyaa, you pretty much deny the attribute of Allah as "Fa3alun lima yurid" and "qadirun 3ala kuli shai".

"He creates by evolution" makes as little sense as saying "He created evolution". Evolution is not a thing or a mechanism of creation as you word it.

You are full b.s Mahmood.
You are not even 1/100th of the intelligent scholar you think you are. LOL

Ozy ... I hope you get the paradox of "Selection for"/"selection now that you see that there are people out there who think evolution is god himself..or maybe "mothernature".

What paradox?

[Afghanistan2010]

Uhh, tell me, Mr "Afghanistan2010" - what is your educational background?

Do you possess a university degree or any accreditation in the field of biology or a related discipline?

Are you seriously disputing Darwin's Theory of Evolution?
Are you some kind of dropout from reality?



So the above video summarizes your understanding of how the Earth and living things came into existence.

You don't do yourself any credit by stubbornly persisting in your challenge of basic rational scientific knowledge.

This video is the understanding that you people have from the world and Evolution.
What is more madness to believe that i will say a Creator/Inventer created Everything (the Sky,Planets,all that lives on the surface and under the surface) or the believe that all created itself,just because it wanted so ?...

Please tell me from your heart what makes more sense that,you say the skies and planets and all that exists created it self from nothing without someone to care about ?....


And to scimetrixyity , you do not believe in Allah ,because you do not believe in the oath of Allah , for sure your are from the Az Zalimun (those who are unjust) , Al Kazibun (Liars) and inshaAllah from those who will be the losers on the day of Judgement.

Again you disbelieve that you think Allah is not capable to create human and rather lets a process do it , while he himself blowed the soul into the body of Adam (a.s) you doubt that Allah who orderd the Angels to bring different parts of clay from the Earth that he created before.
You doubt that Adam(a.s) and his wife were the first to be decended on Earth.
You doubt everything that belongs to the believe of Islam...i dont know if you ever has rethought your religion.


No one forces you to call yourself muslim,my son you are on internet feel free to say you are a disbeliever or an atheist.

[Afghanistan2010]

Alchemist, you will feel offended by what I say, but Adam and Eve is a story handed down across the generations.

As you know, evolution says that humans gradually evolved from lower animals. So Man evolved from the apes, which are the nearest lower relatives.

What is the problem with believing this? When I see how some people behave, I have no problem in believing in similarities between humans and apes.

Naturally, as creatures evolve over time, those with sufficiently different and better traits will become their own distinct species, while those that are in between and lacking a sufficient amount of those favorable traits will fade out from existence.

The Evolution of the human doesnt end by the apes my good friend.

All the different kind of animals and aswell human are from one same thing.

[sanman]

This video is the understanding that you people have from the world and Evolution.
What is more madness to believe that i will say a Creator/Inventer created Everything (the Sky,Planets,all that lives on the surface and under the surface) or the believe that all created itself,just because it wanted so ?...

Please tell me from your heart what makes more sense that,you say the skies and planets and all that exists created it self from nothing without someone to care about ?....

When you say "care about" - you mean to appreciate and have feelings for?
Or do you mean to maintain and sustain?
No special supernatural being is required to maintain and sustain the orbit of the planets, or anything else in the sky.

As for feelings, the planets and stars do not exist merely to stimulate someone's feelings. They are simply a natural phenomenon, which does not require anyone's will or appreciation in order to occur.

Feelings are not important to the rest of the universe. Feelings are important to us human beings. Because some human beings are more emotional and dominated by their feelings than others, they imagine that the feelings which are important to them somehow govern the rest of the universe. They imagine that there must be some supernatural being whose feelings are the purpose for everything's existence.

There is no purpose to the universe, nor plan. It simply happened - just like if an apple falls from a tree, or a rock falls off a mountainside.
Your wishing otherwise will not make it so.

And to scimetrixyity , you do not believe in Allah ,because you do not believe in the oath of Allah , for sure your are from the Az Zalimun (those who are unjust) , Al Kazibun (Liars) and inshaAllah from those who will be the losers on the day of Judgement.

No man, that's just something somebody told you, to make sure you follow them. Faith is blind, after all.

Science proves its credibility every day, through the strength and reliability of its predictions.

Again you disbelieve that you think Allah is not capable to create human and rather lets a process do it , while he himself blowed the soul into the body of Adam (a.s) you doubt that Allah who orderd the Angels to bring different parts of clay from the Earth that he created before.
You doubt that Adam(a.s) and his wife were the first to be decended on Earth.
You doubt everything that belongs to the believe of Islam...i dont know if you ever has rethought your religion.


No one forces you to call yourself muslim,my son you are on internet feel free to say you are a disbeliever or an atheist.

Don't worry, I'm not fearing the hellfire which will not come.

The issue from my viewpoint is to understand how the world actually works, rather than just pretending to know how it works through simple but uselessly inaccurate explanations.

"It rained because God wanted it to."
"My aunt died because God wanted to see her."
"My tummy hurts because God is displeased with me."

Newton is said to be the father of modern physics, because he was the first to see strong mathematical relationships in the behavior of nature.
By understanding and exploiting such things, Man has been able to gain increasing control over the world around him.

Tell me - how can you claim to know the feelings of God? Through what means?

The Evolution of the human doesnt end by the apes my good friend.

All the different kind of animals and aswell human are from one same thing.

Well, what kind of evolution are you referring to? If you mean emotional maturity, or knowledge, this is one type of evolution.
If you mean biological evolution of physical bodily traits and characteristics, this is a different type of evolution.
Yes, I think that both types would continue to occur, albeit at different rates.

[ozymandias]

This video is the understanding that you people have from the world and Evolution.
What is more madness to believe that i will say a Creator/Inventer created Everything (the Sky,Planets,all that lives on the surface and under the surface) or the believe that all created itself,just because it wanted so ?...

So basically, you have absolutely no idea what evolution, modern cosmology, abiogenesis, or any other modern science actually says -- and that's your proof that it's wrong? That you don't have a clue?

Please tell me from your heart what makes more sense that,you say the skies and planets and all that exists created it self from nothing without someone to care about ?....

Well, that's not what modern science believes -- but even if it did, that is still more likely than a super-being created itself out of nothing, and then created the universe.

And to scimetrixyity , you do not believe in Allah ,because you do not believe in the oath of Allah , for sure your are from the Az Zalimun (those who are unjust) , Al Kazibun (Liars) and inshaAllah from those who will be the losers on the day of Judgement.

Again you disbelieve that you think Allah is not capable to create human and rather lets a process do it , while he himself blowed the soul into the body of Adam (a.s) you doubt that Allah who orderd the Angels to bring different parts of clay from the Earth that he created before.
You doubt that Adam(a.s) and his wife were the first to be decended on Earth.
You doubt everything that belongs to the believe of Islam...i dont know if you ever has rethought your religion.


No one forces you to call yourself muslim,my son you are on internet feel free to say you are a disbeliever or an atheist.

Actually, many force others to call themselves Muslim. I have no idea where he lives. Perhaps he lives in a country were they still murder apostates.

[ozymandias]

The Evolution of the human doesnt end by the apes my good friend.

All the different kind of animals and aswell human are from one same thing.

Indeed. Doesn't make what he said incorrect. He basically said you descended from your parents, and you pointed out that you descended from your grandparents.

[Alchemist]

No proof either way. All we know is that it was present in that sample prior to the introduction of an antibiotic to that sample. Without knowing where it came from, it is insanely stupid to infer that this makes any implication about the existence pre-antiboitic age. For all you know, that sample was collected off the floor of a modern hospital the day they filmed that clip.

You are ignorant of the fact that bacteria found frozen in corpses before the invention of anit-biotics also had resistance! And that is a proven scientific fact!



The rest of your response was another demonstration of your abilities at rationalizing your own delusions. By parsing the argument piece by piece, you make it easier to do away with the over all argument - that there is no proof for evolution.

I made a comprehensive argument about the aspects of the theory that make it difficult for it to be studied 'scientifically', that being the phenotypic traits and what it was being 'selected-for'. So if anyone is "ignoring" anything it is you ozy.

You have demonstrated zero scientific knowledge on the subject. Your "proof" so far was just a copy and paste from talkorigin.

We can play this game forever. Just ask ****mitarsexedge.

[ozymandias]

You are ignorant of the fact that bacteria found frozen in corpses before the invention of anit-biotics also had resistance! And that is a proven scientific fact!

So this sample was from a corpse from the pre-antibiotic age? Where is that proof?

The rest of your response was another demonstration of your abilities at rationalizing your own delusions. By parsing the argument piece by piece, you make it easier to do away with the over all argument - that there is no proof for evolution.

You have yet to present any evidence to back this claim up. No matter how I break up your post, the fact remains you have no evidence. There is plenty of proof *for* evolution, as you have already posted.

I made a comprehensive argument about the aspects of the theory that make it difficult for it to be studied 'scientifically', that being the phenotypic traits and what it was being 'selected-for'. So if anyone is "ignoring" anything it is you ozy.

Where is this argument? You have not made any case at all supporting your claims that evolution is false.

You have demonstrated zero scientific knowledge on the subject. Your "proof" so far was just a copy and paste from talkorigin.

You continue to claim that, if you need to, in order to sleep at night. You are not fooling anyone. I have disproven every claim you made about having evidence that disproves evolution. I have consistently shown that you have no understanding of science, let alone evolution.

We can play this game forever. Just ask ****mitarsexedge.

I do not doubt the depths of your misunderstanding of science, or evolution, nor your willingness to remain ignorant as to the truth, nor your tenacity at clinging to your ignorance.

[sanman]

You are ignorant of the fact that bacteria found frozen in corpses before the invention of anit-biotics also had resistance! And that is a proven scientific fact!

Your knowledge is poor. Anti-biotics are not so much a man-made invention, when the first anti-biotics discovered by Sir Sanford Fleming were from natural fungi. So your own claim of discovery is moot.

The rest of your response was another demonstration of your abilities at rationalizing your own delusions. By parsing the argument piece by piece, you make it easier to do away with the over all argument - that there is no proof for evolution.

I made a comprehensive argument about the aspects of the theory that make it difficult for it to be studied 'scientifically', that being the phenotypic traits and what it was being 'selected-for'. So if anyone is "ignoring" anything it is you ozy.

You have demonstrated zero scientific knowledge on the subject. Your "proof" so far was just a copy and paste from talkorigin.

We can play this game forever. Just ask ****mitarsexedge.

All you've shown is that you know how to deceive yourself. But what benefit do you gain from doing this?

The rest of the world is evolving and improving through science and technology. That is the benefit of pursuing scientific understanding. When you reject it, you are placing yourself at a disadvantage, because then others will be doing the inventing and engineering to create value, while you will simply be a consumer of what they have created.

The problem is that too much of the Islamic world simply pumps its wealth out of the ground. So nobody has to create or invent. So nobody has to learn how to do these things.

Look at Pakistan - they claim they are a nuclear power, but they had to depend on China to give them the bomb. That's because they don't have the scientific knowledge to develop it themselves. It's because they're a technically illiterate society where even bicycles cannot be manufactured without importing foreign parts.

Meanwhile, China has a strong scientific and technical base, which keeps them marching ahead.