The United Nations Charter of Human Rights and Islam

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

ozymandias,

Let us start from a blank sheet of paper, perhaps we have both misunderstood each other.

We are going to talk about this topic: The United Nations Charter of Human Rights.

The victims are the innocent people being attacked for exercising universal human rights.

Are you saying that Islam stands against everything that is in this charter?

[Admin Khan]

Thanks for starting a new topic.

[ozymandias]

ozymandias,

Let us start from a blank sheet of paper, perhaps we have both misunderstood each other.

We are going to talk about this topic: The United Nations Charter of Human Rights.




Are you saying that Islam stands against everything that is in this charter?

I am saying that various parts of Islam stands against various parts of that declaration.

It is impossible to say that all of Islam supports all of those rights, as we have seen examples of Islamic people and countries violating various rights.

The recent terrorist threats over people exercising Article 19 is enough to prove my point, without even discussing sexist laws, or violations of personal rights in Islamic countries.

This is not to say that some people of the Islamic faith do not support each and every one of those rights. They exist -- and I have met them personally.

[ozymandias]

MeemWawMeemNoon,

Since I have already warned you multiple times, I am going to repeat the warning here, at the start of this thread:

If you continue to be fraudulent, lie, and misrepresent what I say and what I believe, and make deliberate attempts to be discourteous, and obtuse, I am going to walk away from this thread.

I intent to hold intelligent, civil, and scholarly discussions, and you have consistently made posts that deliberately violate the spirit of open discourse, and I have no intention of allowing unproductive discussions to waste my time.

[ozymandias]

Didnt you protest for Islamic right?

Several protests over the last few years -- but I also attend 'mixers' where people meet to discuss the differences between groups and attempt to reach a common ground and defuse situations between the various faith communities about once a month. They are attempts to get people to understand people of other faiths -- and even though the Atheists come as a group, I usually attend with the Muslims.

[ozymandias]

Can you elaborate your stance.

Article 19 explicitly states that it's a universal human right to exercise free speech without interference. This, along with #1, #2, #3, #5, #10, #12, #18, #20, #27 and #29 are violated every time a terrorist makes a threat, or acts out terrorism -- and this includes the death threats, the attempted arson, and the other terrorist attempts by Muslims upset by a drawing.

Many of those same rights are violated when your religion is forced on others -- and this includes arresting rape victims for 'unlawful sex' or arresting tourists for eating during Ramadan.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

MeemWawMeemNoon,

Since I have already warned you multiple times, I am going to repeat the warning here, at the start of this thread:

If you continue to be fraudulent, lie, and misrepresent what I say and what I believe, and make deliberate attempts to be discourteous, and obtuse, I am going to walk away from this thread.

I intent to hold intelligent, civil, and scholarly discussions, and you have consistently made posts that deliberately violate the spirit of open discourse, and I have no intention of allowing unproductive discussions to waste my time.

I have done non of the above. If you feel that way please don't, because I have not done such a thing. If it appears as such, then please forgive me as I have always responded to your posts with sincerity.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Article 19 explicitly states that it's a universal human right to exercise free speech without interference. This, along with #1, #2, #3, #5, #10, #12, #18, #20, #27 and #29 are violated every time a terrorist makes a threat, or acts out terrorism -- and this includes the death threats, the attempted arson, and the other terrorist attempts by Muslims upset by a drawing.

Many of those same rights are violated when --your religion is forced on others and this includes arresting rape victims for 'unlawful sex' or arresting tourists for eating during Ramadan.

Could you please quote Quranic verse where it shows that it is part of Islamic belief to commit such acts.

If I have taken you out of context before, please forgive me; however, now is your chance to show me from my scripture, the Holy Quran, that all such acts are condoned.

Let us start from a fresh new slate.

[ozymandias]

I have done non of the above. If you feel that way please don't, because I have not done such a thing. If it appears as such, then please forgive me as I have always responded to your posts with sincerity.

http://www.pashtunforums.com/showthread.php?t=1661

[ozymandias]

Could you please quote Quranic verse where it shows that it is part of Islamic belief to commit such acts.

If I have taken you out of context before, please forgive me; however, now is your chance to show me from my scripture, the Holy Quran, that all such acts are condoned.

Let us start from a fresh new slate.

I have no need to point to a specific verse, as I can point to Muslims that have done these things.

Besides, since I would (of necessity) rely on a translated version of the Koran, you will simply label it as a poor translation or out of context -- even though these are the very verses used by Islamic regimes to justify their actions.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Anyone who calls themselves a Muslim is a Muslim, but that does not mean that their actions are Islamic.

I am sorry to say, but you have no clue of Islamic teachings, just misplaced Muslim behaviour.

Would it be fair to judge Americans, collectively, on the actions of their government?

I rest my case.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

If you are really sincere, let us continue this topic. I am perfectly fine with your use of a translation. I will guide you. I will show you the ropes.

I really would like to show you what Islam's real teachings are.

I think it would really help you out. What do you say?

[ozymandias]

Anyone who calls themselves a Muslim is a Muslim, but that does not mean that their actions are Islamic.

You are right. On the other side of that coin, *YOU* are not the onyl authority on what is, and what is not Islamic. Just because *you* disagree with an action, and feel that your religion does not support an action, does not make it so.

These people have time and time again used their religion to defend their actions, and they have clearly shown that their actions fit into their interpretation of their religion. Just because it is not *your* interpretation does not mean they are not Islamic. They might not be *your* kind of Islamic, but they are still Islamic.

The same holds true with Christianity -- Catholics, and Presbyterians disagree on *MANY* points of faith -- but they are both Christian -- even though they disagree on minor details.

I am sorry to say, but you have no clue of Islamic teachings, just misplaced Muslim behaviour.

Unfortunately for you, I appear to have a better grasp of reality than you do, as you consistently hide behind the 'No True Scotsman' fallacy to avoid facing a truth you do not like.

These people meet the dictionary and scholarly definitions of Islamic. Period.

Would it be fair to judge Americans, collectively, on the actions of their government?

An American I disagree with is still American. I did not support Bush, but he was still an American. I disagreed with how he interpreted the Constitution, but he was still American.

Not only that, but this is a false analogy. The US Government is a representative government, so the public does bear some responsibility for voting in people they do not like, and has an obligation to work to correct what they do not like, however the civil and political systems for change are not overly rapid -- for instance, it is *VERY* difficult to change the President, other than once every 4 years at election time. If the public was lied to by a politician, they are not responsible for what that politician does after elected -- until they re-elect them.

Even then, if the public has been lied to, or mislead, as was the case with the US Government claiming Iraq had weapons of mass destruction, we are responsible for voting for lying politicians, but we are not responsible for the actions we take as a country on the basis of those lies.

It is much the same as if a muslim is taught the 'wrong' things about Islam. If their teacher lies to them, and they have no reason to disbelieve the teacher, they are not at fault for believing the teacher.

The reason that this was a false analogy, however, is that while the US citizens *DO* elect their government, and share some of the fault for the actions of that government, terrorists are not elected by Islam. You do *NOT* share the blame for their actions, or their interpretations of your faith -- but you *DO* shoulder the full blame for not trying to solve the problem, and spread the PEACEFUL messages.

You claiming they are not Islamic, and thus not your problem *IS* what you are guilty of. Your faith is being twisted and manipulated to support cirmes against humanity, and you turn your back on the problem and cowardly ignore the issue. That is what you are guilty of -- not following a faith that is being used to commit crimes.

You may not agree with Saudi Arabia letting schoolgirls burn to death under the impression that it would be against their religion to let them leave a burning building because they are uncovered -- but it is your obligation to try and correct their interpretation, as it sullies your religion, not ignore it and allow it.

Some muslims repress the rights of their women in the name of their religion, and you share the blame not for repressing the women, but for not correcting the men that do that.

I rest my case.

You provided a poor example -- a representative government does share blame with those that voted for them. Luckily for you, I not only corrected you, but pointed out that Islam is not a case of election.

You may rest your case -- but you didn't prove a thing.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

No where did I fall in the "no true Scotsman" fallacy, no where. I have always maintained that anyone, and I mean anyone, who calls himself or herself a Muslim is a Muslim, but this does not necessarily mean that his or her actions are Islamic.

Nonetheless, please provide verses from the Holy Quran to show what is happening is Islam.

By the way, I really do appreciate the fact that you are taking the time to respond to my posts. I think that this is healthy.

[ozymandias]

Ya, But you can not use that as a behavior to cause offence.

I don't think I understand your post.

Are you claiming that you have some right not to be offended that was violated by people defending the rights specified in that charter?